It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

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Scott Downey

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Ephesians 4:11–16 in Context


Paul is talking about how Christ gave gifts (apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers) to build up the church. The goal is:


  • equipping the saints
  • unity of the faith
  • knowledge of the Son of God
  • maturity (“to a perfect man”)
  • the fullness of Christ



On This Earth

  • The church is called to grow toward that goal now.
  • But Paul uses language of process — “till we all come…” and “may grow up…” — suggesting it is progressive, ongoing, and not yet complete.
  • In this fallen world, because of sin, division, and weakness, the fullness described in v.13 is never fully attained.



In the New Creation


  • What is begun here will be perfected there.
  • On the new earth, when Christ returns, we will:
    • be one unified body without division (Revelation 7:9–10 shows perfect unity of the redeemed).
    • have full knowledge of the Son of God (1 Corinthians 13:12; 1 John 3:2).
    • reach the “measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ” — true maturity, no longer subject to deception or immaturity.


Ephesians 4:13 is only partially realized on this present earth, and will be fully realized in the new creation.
It’s the “already but not yet” pattern: we grow toward it now, but perfection awaits Christ’s return and the new earth.
 
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WPM

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I have given some thought to this today.
There are two themes to Isaiah 2
The first is about the Lord teaching His people.

Isaiah 2:3 He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths.”
Referring to His church.

The second theme is of the coming judgment on the Day of the Lord, begins in v5

We are right now in the first part where Christ and God are teaching the church.
Do you realize when Christ comes, that means the perfect has come?

When Christ has come again, there will be no more need for teaching us His ways, or beating swords into plowshares.
Which is even written on the wall for the United Nations.
It really has to do with us though who believe. We do not wage war against our other brethren in the faith from the other nations.

1 Corinthians 13
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is [d]perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

For us today, this here
2 Peter 3:18
but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

Colossians 3:10
and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,

We have partial knowledge now in this life,
But in the age-world to come, after Christ has returned, then this

1. Complete Knowledge in Christ

  • 1 Corinthians 13:12
    “For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”

2. We Will See Him As He Is

  • 1 John 3:2
    “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.”

3. Christ Will Transform Our Minds

  • Philippians 3:20–21
    “For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.”

4. All Things Made Clear as we shall be like Him

  • Colossians 3:4
    “When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.”

5. God’s Light Brings Understanding

  • Revelation 22:3–5
    “And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face… and they shall reign for ever and ever.”
    → Seeing God’s face implies perfect revelation and understanding.

6. God Reveals What We Cannot Now Bear

  • John 16:12–13
    “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth.”
    → Complete fulfillment of this awaits eternity.
  1. When did/does the last days begin?
  2. When did/does the last days end?
  3. When is "the last day"?
 

Scott Downey

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  1. When did/does the last days begin?
  2. When did/does the last days end?
  3. When is "the last day"?
Sure,
The last days started with Christ on this earth
Hebrews 1:2
has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

The last days, end on the Last Day, which is when Christ returns.

The church has been in the last days from its inception.
 
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Scott Downey

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Acts 2
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only [e]the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.

19 I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
21 And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.’

Peter here shows them both, the last days culminate in the Day of the Lord.
From v19 onwards, we read of awesome and troubling sights, Jesus said they same things, signs in the sun, moon, stars here in Luke 21

The Coming of the Son of Man​

25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”
 
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WPM

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Sure,
The last days started with Christ on this earth
Hebrews 1:2
has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

The last days, end on the Last Day, which is when Christ returns.

The church has been in the last days from its inception.
Ok. I agree. So, how can you locate Isa 2 in the eternal state?
 

Scott Downey

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Ok. I agree. So, how can you locate Isa 2 in the eternal state?
It is not describing the eternal state, only until the Day of the Lord from v5 onwards, after that is the eternal state.
So saying it refers to a 1000 year reign on the first earth, of Christ, does not fit.
 
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TrevorHL

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Greetings Scott Downey,
Isaiah 2:3 He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths.”
Referring to His church. We are right now in the first part where Christ and God are teaching the church.
No, I believe that this is speaking about educating the nations in the period of time between Armageddon and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth for the 1000 years, when Jesus will sit upon the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Scott Downey

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Greetings Scott Downey,

No, I believe that this is speaking about educating the nations in the period of time between Armageddon and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth for the 1000 years, when Jesus will sit upon the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem.

Kind regards
Trevor
It is for people whom the Lord draws to Himself, only they will be interested learners of God's ways, it is for us today is my view here.
The unbelieving world could care less about Christ and learning His ways, they are not spiritually minded.

Plus, the flow Of Isaiah 2, moves forward from this church era of the last days, to the Last Day, which is the Day of the Lord.
It just fits, and makes sense.

From a ChatGPT discussion I had.

Consider that the nations refer to people who actually believe in and follow Christ, they will be taught His ways, and the unbelieving world will not be interested, as in receive that instruction. Believers are coming from every nation over the earth and they will not wage war against each other, for the commandment of God is peace and love to manifest between them all.

ChatGPT said:​

That’s a thoughtful way to frame Isaiah 2, and it lines up with a strong thread of New Testament interpretation. Let me reflect back what you’re saying, and then tie it into the prophecy:

1. Nations = Peoples of Faith​

  • In Isaiah’s vision, “nations” streaming to Zion could be read not simply as geopolitical entities but as representatives of peoples drawn to God in Christ.
  • The New Testament often re-frames “Israel” and “the nations” in terms of the believing community: Jew and Gentile united in Christ (e.g., Galatians 3:28, Ephesians 2:11–22).
  • So, “all nations flowing to Zion” could be seen as fulfilled as believers from every nation, tribe, people, and language come to Christ (Revelation 7:9).

2. Instruction = Discipleship in Christ​

  • You’re right that not everyone receives the Lord’s teaching. Isaiah’s wording — “He will teach us His ways, that we may walk in His paths” — points to willing learners.
  • Jesus echoed this when He said, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me” (John 10:27).
  • The unbelieving world may hear but not respond (cf. Matthew 13, parable of the soils). So this prophecy narrows naturally to those who actually come in faith.

3. Peace = the Fruit of Obedience​

  • Isaiah 2:4 — “They shall beat their swords into plowshares … nation shall not lift up sword against nation” — could be interpreted as the peace Christ commands among His followers.
  • Jesus explicitly commanded love and reconciliation within His body: “By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another” (John 13:35).
  • When believers walk in His teaching, wars and conflicts between them must cease — they are reconciled as one family.
  • Sadly, when the church strays from His commands, history shows divisions and even wars between “Christians.” But the prophetic ideal is clear: true disciples live in peace.

4. Already but Not Yet​

  • In this view, Isaiah’s prophecy is already being fulfilled in the church: people from every nation are coming to Christ, being discipled, and (at their best) living out peace and love.
  • At the same time, the “not yet” element remains: the whole world is not yet submitted, unbelievers reject the instruction, and even believers sometimes fail to embody the peace Isaiah foresaw.
  • The prophecy finds its truest fulfillment when the global church reflects Christ’s love and when the final kingdom is revealed in fullness.

✅ So your interpretation is well grounded: Isaiah isn’t promising that unbelieving nations will suddenly embrace God’s teaching. Rather, he is describing the multinational body of believers streaming to God, learning His ways, and being transformed into a peaceful, loving community.
 

WPM

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It is for people whom the Lord draws to Himself, only they will be interested learners of God's ways, it is for us today is my view here.
The unbelieving world could care less about Christ and learning His ways, they are not spiritually minded.

Plus, the flow Of Isaiah 2, moves forward from this church era of the last days, to the Last Day, which is the Day of the Lord.
It just fits, and makes sense.

From a ChatGPT discussion I had.

Consider that the nations refer to people who actually believe in and follow Christ, they will be taught His ways, and the unbelieving world will not be interested, as in receive that instruction. Believers are coming from every nation over the earth and they will not wage war against each other, for the commandment of God is peace and love to manifest between them all.

ChatGPT said:​

That’s a thoughtful way to frame Isaiah 2, and it lines up with a strong thread of New Testament interpretation. Let me reflect back what you’re saying, and then tie it into the prophecy:

1. Nations = Peoples of Faith​

  • In Isaiah’s vision, “nations” streaming to Zion could be read not simply as geopolitical entities but as representatives of peoples drawn to God in Christ.
  • The New Testament often re-frames “Israel” and “the nations” in terms of the believing community: Jew and Gentile united in Christ (e.g., Galatians 3:28, Ephesians 2:11–22).
  • So, “all nations flowing to Zion” could be seen as fulfilled as believers from every nation, tribe, people, and language come to Christ (Revelation 7:9).

2. Instruction = Discipleship in Christ​

  • You’re right that not everyone receives the Lord’s teaching. Isaiah’s wording — “He will teach us His ways, that we may walk in His paths” — points to willing learners.
  • Jesus echoed this when He said, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me” (John 10:27).
  • The unbelieving world may hear but not respond (cf. Matthew 13, parable of the soils). So this prophecy narrows naturally to those who actually come in faith.

3. Peace = the Fruit of Obedience​

  • Isaiah 2:4 — “They shall beat their swords into plowshares … nation shall not lift up sword against nation” — could be interpreted as the peace Christ commands among His followers.
  • Jesus explicitly commanded love and reconciliation within His body: “By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another” (John 13:35).
  • When believers walk in His teaching, wars and conflicts between them must cease — they are reconciled as one family.
  • Sadly, when the church strays from His commands, history shows divisions and even wars between “Christians.” But the prophetic ideal is clear: true disciples live in peace.

4. Already but Not Yet​

  • In this view, Isaiah’s prophecy is already being fulfilled in the church: people from every nation are coming to Christ, being discipled, and (at their best) living out peace and love.
  • At the same time, the “not yet” element remains: the whole world is not yet submitted, unbelievers reject the instruction, and even believers sometimes fail to embody the peace Isaiah foresaw.
  • The prophecy finds its truest fulfillment when the global church reflects Christ’s love and when the final kingdom is revealed in fullness.

✅ So your interpretation is well grounded: Isaiah isn’t promising that unbelieving nations will suddenly embrace God’s teaching. Rather, he is describing the multinational body of believers streaming to God, learning His ways, and being transformed into a peaceful, loving community.
It doesn't matter what ChatGPT thinks. This weakens your case.
 

Scott Downey

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It doesn't matter what ChatGPT thinks. This weakens your case.
Weakens in whose mind?, not mine.
Maybe 'weaker minds' like opponents are already dead set against what I say anyway.

People already have decided for themselves what to think and believe. I can't change that, only God can turn them one way or the other.

I have found many people aren't looking for answers when they post, they are presenting their view.
But we do have readers...who don't post, maybe they are thinkers.

Proverbs 21:1
The king’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.
 

TrevorHL

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Greetings again WPM and Scott Downey,
It doesn't matter what ChatGPT thinks. This weakens your case.
Weakens in whose mind?, not mine.
It certainly appears to have come up with the wrong answers as stated in your posts.

I was interested in part of wiki's assessment:
Despite its acclaim, the chatbot has been criticized for its limitations and potential for unethical use. It can generate plausible-sounding but incorrect or nonsensical answers known as hallucinations. Biases in its training data have been reflected in its responses. The chatbot can facilitate academic dishonesty, generate misinformation, and create malicious code.

I am also cautious with some of the information on wiki.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Scott Downey

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Greetings again WPM and Scott Downey,


It certainly appears to have come up with the wrong answers as stated in your posts.
As it has in all the amil posters too then, according with your POV


Isaiah 2 is speaking of Christ and His church age, the last days begins with Christ.
It then moves on to the Day of the Lord, which is when Christ returns, called the Last Day in scripture.

On the Last Day, we have His return, the dead are raised, He burns the world in fire, He judges the world in righteousness according to the gospel, God creates a new earth and new heaven and we are in the final eternal state as all the prophets of God have spoken of since the world began.

And all the wicked and unbelieving and all that cause offense to God are cast out of His kingdom into the eternal lake of fire that burns with brimstone, they do not escape their sudden destruction., as 1 Thessalonians 5 says

There is no Christ sitting on David's earthly throne for a 1000 years with Him separated from the Father who is in heaven, you are believing in a myth. He does not leave the Father's side even when He returns, what you believe is absurd.
The Father does not leave heaven until the end of the world and then He lives with His people after the first earth is passed away in the New Jerusalem which descends from heaven onto the new earth, just as Revelation 21 and 22 describes.

Mark 12, Christ sits on His own throne as Lord, not David's throne on this first earth, separated from the Father.
He is in heaven seated at the right hand of the Father until all His enemies are destroyed.

Jesus: How Can David Call His Descendant Lord?​

35 Then Jesus answered and said, while He taught in the temple, “How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the Son of David? 36 For David himself said by the Holy Spirit:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ’
37 Therefore David himself calls Him ‘Lord’; how is He then his Son?”

And the common people heard Him gladly.




Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said [b]to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

6 And He said to me, “It[c] is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes [d]shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, [e]unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

  1. Matthew 26:64
    Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  2. Mark 14:62
    Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
 
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Had to break my post in half due to it being too big

2 Timothy 4

1 I charge you [a]therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead [b]at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

2 Thess 1
3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and [a]tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest[b] evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with [c]tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

  1. John 5:21
    For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  2. John 6:39
    This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raiseit up at the last day.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  3. John 6:40
    And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raisehim up at the last day.”
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  4. John 6:44
    No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raisehim up at the last day.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  5. John 6:54
    Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raisehim up at the last day.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  6. John 11:24
    Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  7. John 12:48
    He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him— the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
Acts 17
30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, “We will hear you again on this matter.” 33 So Paul departed from among them. 34 However, some men joined him and believed, among them Dionysius the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others with them.
 
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Scott Downey

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David's throne, where is it now> it is in heaven, not on the earth
After the resurrection where did Christ go?
After the resurrection, Christ went to sit on his throne in Heaven and rule over all things. All power over earth and in heaven the Father gave to Christ.
An earthly rule on David's throne did not occur did it. Christ was and is exalted to the right hand of God, and is in heaven, whom heaven must receive until the time of the restoration of all things, referring to the new earth and new heavens when God says this
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rev 21
4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said [b]to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Acts 3
17 “Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send [c]Jesus Christ, who was [d]preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since [e]the world began.

22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also [f]foretold these days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
God raised up Christ to sit on his throne in heaven not on the first earth which is doomed to destruction and the perdition of the ungdoly
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Acts 2
29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, [i]according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted [j]to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ’
36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the [k]remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
 
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TrevorHL

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Greetings again Scott Downey,
Isaiah 2 is speaking of Christ and His church age, the last days begins with Christ.
It then moves on to the Day of the Lord, which is when Christ returns, called the Last Day in scripture.
As I have previously stated, I disagree with this perspective. It does not match the detail of Isaiah 2:1-4 and other OT prophecies. How much of the three latest posts are from ChatGPT or similar. I am not interested in conversing with AI. Is this your latest toy? At least with most reference books, you are usually dealing with a specific person, and you can decide if you endorse his particular perspective.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Scott Downey

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Here is how Trevor is most assuredly wrong, a simple proof.

I will stick simply with Peter and what he said about the restoration of all things.

Acts 3
20 and that He may send [c]Jesus Christ, who was [d]preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since [e]the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also [f]foretold these days.

2 Peter 3

Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of [a]us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and [b]perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward [c]us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

The Day of the Lord​

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be [d]burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The time of the restoration of all things, is when Christ returns and this earth passes away, burned with fire.
The restoration of all things is the new earth and new heavens, there is no other restoration of all things Peter talks about.

The restoration of all things has nothing to do with an earthly 1000 year reign of Christ on the first earth, which He destroys when He returns

I am keeping this as simple as it can be, staying with Peter's own teaching on the subject.
You can either believe it or not.
 
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TrevorHL

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Greetings again Scott Downey,
Here is how Trevor is most assuredly wrong, a simple proof.
I will stick simply with Peter and what he said about the restoration of all things.
Acts 3: 20 and that He may send [c]Jesus Christ, who was [d]preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since [e]the world began.
Actually this is one of my favourite passages in support of the Pre-millennial view:
Acts 3:19–21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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Scott Downey

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Greetings again Scott Downey,

Actually this is one of my favourite passages in support of the Pre-millennial view:
Acts 3:19–21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Kind regards
Trevor
Sure, and I said what Peter said.
Peter never says anything other than a new earth, as something for us to look forward to regarding the restoration of all things, and we know what the new earth is, other scriptures tell us.
Believe what Peter says or make up something else.
Peter also issues a warning in His message about the restoration-new earth.
Everyone has an opinion
 

rwb

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Greetings again Scott Downey,

Actually this is one of my favourite passages in support of the Pre-millennial view:
Acts 3:19–21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Kind regards
Trevor

How does this passage support the Premillennial view?

It is in this age that mankind is being called be converted (turn away from sin and to Christ) that our sins are blotted out in the times of refreshing (restoring, reconstitution), or making all things new again, as they were in the beginning, that shall come with the presence of the Lord when He shall send again Jesus Christ again. If Christ was coming back again to THIS earth, Peter would not speak as the return of Christ for one thousand years as the times of making all things as they were at creation, when God looked upon what He had created and said "it was very good." Do you think things shall return to the original creation only to have all things that were made new again be burned up at what I guess you would say His THIRD coming?

Revelation 21:1-8 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

This passage makes no place for one thousand years for more of the same on THIS earth when Christ shall come again!
 

Scott Downey

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How does this passage support the Premillennial view?

It is in this age that mankind is being called be converted (turn away from sin and to Christ) that our sins are blotted out in the times of refreshing (restoring, reconstitution), or making all things new again, as they were in the beginning, that shall come with the presence of the Lord when He shall send again Jesus Christ again. If Christ was coming back again to THIS earth, Peter would not speak as the return of Christ for one thousand years as the times of making all things as they were at creation, when God looked upon what He had created and said "it was very good." Do you think things shall return to the original creation only to have all things that were made new again be burned up at what I guess you would say His THIRD coming?

Revelation 21:1-8 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

This passage makes no place for one thousand years for more of the same on THIS earth when Christ shall come again!
But are they allowed to think and understand or are they hardened.
Many are hardened.

  1. Mark 6:52
    For they had not understood about the loaves, because their heart was hardened.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  2. Mark 8:17
    But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, “Why do you reason because you have no bread? Do you not yet perceive nor understand? Is your heart still hardened?
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  3. John 12:40
    “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.”
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  4. Acts 19:9
    But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them and withdrew the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  5. Hebrews 3:13
    but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
 
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