Steve, may I ask how old you are ? And how long you have been studying eschatology ?
70th Week and Day of the Lord are separate events.
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Truth7t7
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Truth7t7
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quietthinker
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I'm 58. Been interested since I was young. Read The Sign by Van Kampen, Revelations by Beale, and other books, but I am by no means an expert, just looking for interesting discussion. Like MacArthur said, "We read books to get to the ending." A futurist viewpoint is valuable. We can explain to the bewildered why the world seems crazy and give them the Gospel. The "Apocalypse" is in the cultural consciousness, so those alive when it happens will turn to the Bible when shit goes down. Ultimately, Jesus told us to watch.
My first entry has no sermon in it--just an organization of scriptural content. You and I must differ on the level of symbolism. Prophesy certainly teaches us God's plan for humanity, but specifics allow us to recognize the end times narrative when it happens. And I understand the concept of "already but not yet." I'm not pretending to be an expert--I'm in I.T. Just wanted to try out some ideas with the likeminded.
Doug: I request that you redo your chart. Please separate the Day of the Lord from the Final Week. Don't worry about the two instances of 70 Weeks. Consider this an exercise, not an attempt to win your agreement. I would love to see it.
Steve, I have better idea.
I use Corel Paintshop Pro 2023 Ulimate. You can buy and download a copy from Amazon. It's around $50-60.
Then, you can copy my chart, and open it as a new image in Corel Paintshop Pro, and do all the modifications you want to create your own chart to post. The Corel Paintshop Pro program is fun to learn how to use.
I am not able to read you mind to place the Day of the Lord separately from the Final Week because the Day of the Lord begins when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act of sitting the temple claiming to have achieved God-hood.
Making time line charts is very beneficial because it requires study to place everything in its right position on the chart. Most of my charts begin with day 1 of the 7 years, and end with day 2520 of the 7 years as the day of Jesus's return.
The first step of course is "TRY". If you get the program and need some help, let me know.
Dave Watchman
Active Member
I think you're doing pretty good in considering all this Steve. You got yourself into a unique ball park. With everything else going on, I missed your note when it first came out.
Dr. Christian is correct that there are two sets of 490 years, two separate sets of 70 weeks. But he is late to this understanding by about 2 years. The second decree to restore Jerusalem was in 1535, not 1536 or 1537. I do find it interesting that those timelines originated in the time of the Julian Calendar.
But 1535 means the things are happening now, not a couple years from now. For example, the 5 months of Revelation 9, the fifth trumpet, started and was completed in the first 6 months of 2022. That means we're much closer to the actual second coming, than most are able to confront.
The two sets of 70 weeks was first noticed by Isaac Newton in his Daniel 9 commentary back in the 1700's. He suggested the reason why the 62 weeks, and the 7 weeks were split up as two timeframes, was because they also can be used to point to the second coming of Christ. Because they are already split up as separate times, the two timeframes can be reversed, or used individually for various different decrees. There appears to be a detail, a reason why the two are reversed in our end times. Newton called it the "compass of a Jubilee". 1535 is the correct one because it is verified by a more modern decree made by Levi Eshkol in 1969. 1535 + 434 years, or 62 weeks = 1969.
The Walls of Jerusalem (Hebrew: חומות ירושלים, Arabic: أسوار القدس) surround the Old City of Jerusalem (approx. 1 km2). In 1535, when Jerusalem was part of the Ottoman Empire, Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent ordered the ruined city walls to be rebuilt.
en.wikipedia.org
Walls of Jerusalem - Wikipedia
The stone plaques Widener uses are erroneous. Another guy on Fivedoves made the same mistake by using the plaques found on the sabils around the Old City of Jerusalem which all said 1536. It's not the work to rebuild Jerusalem, or the completion of the job, it's the going forth of the command itself that begins the countdown.
It means it's happening now. It has to be happening now.
These walls were built from a command that came from Sultan Sulieman in 1535:
The cries from these stones are reaching their crescendo now. It has to be happening now.
Truth7t7
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quietthinker
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I guess it does but so does building systems which oppose the purposes of God.
Patting yourself on the back because of all the hard work you've put in is just another 'look at my good works' trip.
The paradigm you are locked onto misses the mark and does not allow you to see the core principle from which the prophecies are based on....subsequently your inventions.
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
When did the first declaration occur, and once it is fulfilled,...why the need for a second set?
24 “Seventy weeks [of years, or 490 years] have been decreed for your people and for your holy city (Jerusalem)
, to finish the transgression,
to make an end of sins,
to make atonement (reconciliation) for wickedness,
to bring in everlasting righteousness (right-standing with God)
, to seal up vision and prophecy and prophet
, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
25 So you are to know and understand that from the issuance of the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until [the coming of] the Messiah (the Anointed One), the Prince, there will be seven weeks [of years] and sixty-two weeks [of years]; it will be built again, with [a city] plaza and moat, even in times of trouble.
Clearly the Messiah is Jesus, who is anointed to complete the work of salvation.
, to finish the transgression,
to make an end of sins,
to make atonement (reconciliation) for wickedness,
to bring in everlasting righteousness (right-standing with God)
, to seal up vision and prophecy and prophet
, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
Heb 9 confirms,
11 But when Christ appeared as a High Priest of the good things to come [that is, true spiritual worship], He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not a part of this [material] creation. 12 He went once for all into the Holy Place [the Holy of Holies of heaven, into the presence of God], and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, having obtained and secured eternal redemption [that is, the salvation of all who personally believe in Him as Savior]. 13 For if the sprinkling of [ceremonially] defiled persons with the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a [burnt] heifer is sufficient for the cleansing of the body, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal [Holy] Spirit willingly offered Himself unblemished [that is, without moral or spiritual imperfection as a sacrifice] to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works and lifeless observances to serve the ever living God?
15 For this reason He is the Mediator and Negotiator of a new covenant [that is, an entirely new agreement uniting God and man], so that those who have been called [by God] may receive [the fulfillment of] the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has taken place [as the payment] which redeems them from the sins committed under the obsolete first covenant. 16 For where there is a will and testament involved, the death of the one who made it must be established, 17 for a will and testament takes effect [only] at death, since it is never in force as long as the one who made it is alive. 18 So even the first covenant was not put in force without [the shedding of] blood. 19 For when every commandment in the Law had been read by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of the calves and goats [which had been sacrificed], together with water and scarlet wool and with a bunch of hyssop, and he sprinkled both the scroll itself and all the people, 20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant [that seals and ratifies the agreement] which God ordained and commanded [me to deliver to] you.” 21 And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the containers and sacred utensils of worship with the blood. 22 In fact under the Law almost everything is cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness [neither release from sin and its guilt, nor cancellation of the merited punishment].
23 Therefore it was necessary for the [earthly] copies of the heavenly things to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves required far better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but [He entered] into heaven itself, now to appear in the very presence of God on our behalf; 25 nor did He [enter into the heavenly sanctuary to] offer Himself again and again, as the high priest enters the Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer over and over since the foundation of the world; but now once for all at the consummation of the ages He has appeared and been publicly manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And just as it is appointed and destined for all men to die once and after this [comes certain] judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once and once for all to bear [as a burden] the sins of many, will appear a second time [when he returns to earth], not to deal with sin, but to bring salvation to those who are eagerly and confidently waiting for Him.
No need for a second set. The last red paragraph tells us all we need to know.
Davy
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IMPOSSIBLE, and that THEORY actually reveals BIBLICAL ILLITERACY, no matter how much one tries to USE Bible Scripture to attempt to support it.
The 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel 9 MUST match up to the time of Jesus of Nazareth's Ministry here on earth. Thus there can be ONLY ONE 70 WEEKS PROPHECY, not two. Wrongly suggesting a 2nd 70 weeks period exists for the END of this world when there is NO SUCH IDEA written ANYWHERE in God's Word, is just pure radical speculation, roulette wheel thinking.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Nope! The 70th week of the Daniel 9 seventy weeks prophecy is STILL yet to be fulfilled. That specifically is what the events of the Daniel 9:27 verse are about, which Lord Jesus NEVER did. Those events of that verse are about the coming Antichrist at the end of this world.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Davy
Well-Known Member
Here come all the SDA cult members now with their 2 cents.
The idea that Jesus fulfilled the 70th week during His Ministry is a false doctrine from the UNBELIEVING JEWS. Many of the doctrines of JUDAISM has infiltrated the Seventh Day Adventist cult.
Why do you say that Jesus did not fulfill the 70th week of the prophecy?
Are you talking saying He did not fulfill the 6 God given requirements from His Father that are identified in 9:24?
Are you saying that He did not arrive after the end on the 69th week of the prophecy to begin His ministry?
Are you saying He did not begin His ministry after the 7 and 62 weeks (AFTER 69 weeks), and minister for exactly 3.5 years and then go to the cross?
Do you realize the purpose of the separation of the 70 weeks was to reveal the assignment for each party to RESTORE what was taken away or destroyed by the Babylonians?
Do you understand that God had given His people the first 69 weeks for them to restore all the physical elements- Temple, roads, walls, sanctuary, as well as all of the ceremonies, animal sacrifices, feast days, etc.?
Do you understand these elements that were either taken away or destroyed by the Babylonians were restored in the exact reverse order they were taken away?
Do you understand that the very first item taken away was the Ark of the Covenant by Jeremiah BEFORE the Babylonians came to ensure they would not have taken it away?
Do you realize that was purposeful because it would also be the very last item to be restored?
Do you know that this was the only item that was taken away that could not be restored by His people? The only One capable of restoring the “Presence of God” in the sanctuary (Ark) was Jesus Himself? (This is why everything had to be restored prior to His arrival on the first day of the 70th week). Everything had to be ready for Him. That He certainly could not go to the cross as the Passover Lamb of God if everything was not completely restored and He was the ONLY missing element?
Do you understand that both parties (His people and the Messiah) completed their individual obligations in the restoring of every piece of furniture and every ceremony, practice, etc., that was given to them? His people completed their assignments by the end of week 69, and Jesus would complete His assignments in the final “set aside” week of the prophecy…
Have you given any thought to why God specifically has given us two specific verses (9:24-25) that reveal the “restorative” verses, (all things that must be and were restored by both parties), and then revealed separately, the two “destructive” verses in 9:26-27?
Did you realize that both the 7 and 62 sections were purposefully recorded in the “restorative” verses to reflect both parties obligations?
Did you realize that within the two “destructive” verses that God would only record separately the death of the Messiah- (after 69 weeks), and then the destruction of the city, Temple, sanctuary, (70 AD) - once again, now in reverse order of their prior restoration?
Do you see just how meticulously God designed everything- the exact start and end of the prophecy and exactly when and by whom the elements would be restored, as well as the timing of their destruction and in their order?
I can assure you the SDA folks have not preached this!! They do believe the Messiah was crucified in the final week of the prophecy- because that is exactly what those verses tell us- history records it perfectly!
Perhaps you might consider the above and also understand that here are even more findings within these 4 verses than shown above.
Daniel declared, "Seventy weeks are determined".
That includes all seventy weeks.
It includes the seventieth week.
But you claim that your seventieth week "is STILL yet to be fulfilled".
Therefore, your seventieth week is decapitated, orphaned, and completely undetermined.
It is a complete contradiction of Daniel's declaration.
Whom to believe?
1. You
2. Daniel
Need a hint?
Christ is the Divine Covenant Confirmer of Daniel 9:27. Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:23-26
He cannot be contorted into antichrist.
So stop trying.
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