Was the Cross Always Understood?

[Nameaboveallnames]

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Far too many people assume there was no Law, commandments nor statutes before Moses penned them.

Thanks.

It was asked on other posts what righteousness was preached by Noah. Well, we know there was Law even then, and so the moral standard of that Law is what Noah would have preached. That Law also existed in the time of Abraham, which is clearly stated by the Lord Himself, which contradicts the beliefs of those who would claim there was no Law before the Law of Moses.

Although Abraham obeyed God's laws, we know that righteousness was imputed to him by faith, and not by adherence to any law (Gen. 15:6, Rom. 4:3, 13, 22, Jas. 2:23).

Why then should we believe that the Lord God accounted Noah to be righteous in his eyes by anything other than by faith?

Eze 14:14
Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

Eze 14:20
Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Thanks.

Although Abraham obeyed God's laws, we know that righteousness was imputed to him by faith, and not by adherence to any law (Gen. 15:6, Rom. 4:3, 13, 22, Jas. 2:23).

I fully agree with you on faith being the reason for the accounting of righteousness upon Abraham. No argument there. However, I don't know anyone who would not be so honored as that which the Lord spoke about Abraham, in that he obeyed the Law, the statutes and commands of the Lord. That speaks to reward. That parallels us today. Our obedience and good works pile up reward, treasure, in Heaven awaiting us there. On top of that, we also are called something that was not spoken of any patriarch, priest or even angel in Heaven; that being us classified as fellow heirs with Christ Jesus. I yearn to see that inheritance.

Why then should we believe that the Lord God accounted Noah to be righteous in his eyes by anything other than by faith?

Eze 14:14
Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

Eze 14:20
Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

We're all here because of Noah's faith. Had he not faith, he and all his family would have drowned with all the rest.

BTW

 

[quietthinker]

In a previous post to which I responded, you expressed a measure of caring about what the world thinks about us who follow Christ. The understanding anyone would have is limited by the words you spoke. If there is need for further clarification, then say on. We're listening.

BTW

Perhaps you could post/ forward my complete previous post you mentioned so I could see the context?

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Perhaps you could post/ forward my complete previous post you mentioned so I could see the context?

You forgot what you posted already?

 

[GodsGrace]

Good points, but it still remains that the way to that new birth is only through grace by faith, not of works of effort on our part in trying to earn it, lest any man should find a way to boast. The earnest of our salvation is Holy Spirit and the Father would never forfeit Holy Spirit by removing from anyone their rebirth nor salvation. That is the difficulty the loss-of-salvation gang will have to try and explain away, which would be a vain endeavor indeed.

BTW

I belong to the loss of salvation gang.

Which gang do YOU belong to?
The one that states that if we walk down an isle and become saved at some point in our lives,
we will be saved forever even if we return to a life of sin?

Yes. §This is what OSAS teaches.


Jesus stated we could become lost.
Paul also.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I belong to the loss of salvation gang.

Which gang do YOU belong to?
The one that states that if we walk down an isle and become saved at some point in our lives,
we will be saved forever even if we return to a life of sin?

Yes. §This is what OSAS teaches.


Jesus stated we could become lost.
Paul also.

Wait a minute. I don't recall anyone in the OSAS crowd laying claim to there being any good thing about returning to sin.

Let's get real here, shall we?

Since your salvation, did you become sinless? Have you stopped sinning? If you think you've stopped sinning, then where is that stated anywhere in scripture in relation to the saved without you all becoming boasters for your own righteousness?

Better yet, where's the threshold between saved and loss of salvation in your system of theology? Can you draw a graph for us so that we know what to avoid, and what line to not step across as the point where one loses his or her salvation? If there's such a doctrine in scripture, then there's a clear definition of where that line rests, and yet there is no such verse.

You people who believe in loss of salvation, you do indeed believe in works-based salvation, because if you have to apply effort to retain it, then you have had to apply effort to earn it.

Tell me...if a man who had committed millions of murders finds salvation in Christ Jesus, and then steals a candy bar after salvation, is he bound for Hell once again?

Tell me, given that our salvation is by grace through faith, AND Holy Spirit is given as an earnest of our salvation, how could the Father possibly go back on His having given His own Spirit as an earnest of our salvation. If the Father forfeits His own Spirit, then who will get that Spirit once it is severed from the Father? Can that even happen?

2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

2 Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The parallel of financial terms is unmistakable in the power of what they are establishing, which is to say that we are SEALED. What power can possibly hope to break that seal?

No, it cannot and will not happen. The belief in loss of salvation is a false doctrine that pleases the enemy of our souls, fooling some into thinking that the Seal of Holy Spirit by earnest will somehow be broken by the puny power of our actions and, yes, even foolishness on our part.

You have not stopped sinning, and never will in this life. You cannot draw that graph because it's a figment of your imagination.

If you personally harbor doubts about one's ability to rest assured for their salvation, then maybe you don't have it at all.

I for one have no doubts about the power of sanctification that begins at the point of salvation...the new birth. Yes, some have gone back into some sins and such, but they are covered under this:

2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

What part of all this are you not understanding?

The earnest of a part of God Himself unto all the saved, He will not deny...in other words, He will not forfeit any part of Himself by withdrawing what was given in earnest. If you don't understand that terminology, then that's your problem, and I would recommend you researching the terms to understand the Power behind what they're saying.

Maybe you personally don't want salvation for those who may turn back to some sins, and maybe even worse. Perhaps that makes you jealous to think that they remain saved, although having lost all reward and treasures in Heaven...but that is not reason to be jealous of them still being saved. What's with that? What's your beef about them? Does it really bother you that much that they remain saved? Why?

If you find one OSAS believer out there who teaches that it's somehow easy to become a faithful follower of Christ because of OSAS, then lead them to me for a conversation. If you encounter an OSAS follower who thinks they can live on in sin without it costing them something, then, again, lead them to me for a conversation.

If you decide to try and transliteratively corrupt the verses above into saying something they're not saying, then we can converse about that too.

Does all that make sense?

BTW

 

[quietthinker]

Wait a minute. I don't recall anyone in the OSAS crowd laying claim to there being any good thing about returning to sin.

Let's get real here, shall we?

Since your salvation, did you become sinless? Have you stopped sinning? If you think you've stopped sinning, then where is that stated anywhere in scripture in relation to the saved without you all becoming boasters for your own righteousness?

Better yet, where's the threshold between saved and loss of salvation in your system of theology? Can you draw a graph for us so that we know what to avoid, and what line to not step across as the point where one loses his or her salvation? If there's such a doctrine in scripture, then there's a clear definition of where that line rests, and yet there is no such verse.

You people who believe in loss of salvation, you do indeed believe in works-based salvation, because if you have to apply effort to retain it, then you have had to apply effort to earn it.

Tell me...if a man who had committed millions of murders finds salvation in Christ Jesus, and then steals a candy bar after salvation, is he bound for Hell once again?

Tell me, given that our salvation is by grace through faith, AND Holy Spirit is given as an earnest of our salvation, how could the Father possibly go back on His having given His own Spirit as an earnest of our salvation. If the Father forfeits His own Spirit, then who will get that Spirit once it is severed from the Father? Can that even happen?

2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

2 Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The parallel of financial terms is unmistakable in the power of what they are establishing, which is to say that we are SEALED. What power can possibly hope to break that seal?

No, it cannot and will not happen. The belief in loss of salvation is a false doctrine that pleases the enemy of our souls, fooling some into thinking that the Seal of Holy Spirit by earnest will somehow be broken by the puny power of our actions and, yes, even foolishness on our part.

You have not stopped sinning, and never will in this life. You cannot draw that graph because it's a figment of your imagination.

If you personally harbor doubts about one's ability to rest assured for their salvation, then maybe you don't have it at all.

I for one have no doubts about the power of sanctification that begins at the point of salvation...the new birth. Yes, some have gone back into some sins and such, but they are covered under this:

2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

What part of all this are you not understanding?

The earnest of a part of God Himself unto all the saved, He will not deny...in other words, He will not forfeit any part of Himself by withdrawing what was given in earnest. If you don't understand that terminology, then that's your problem, and I would recommend you researching the terms to understand the Power behind what they're saying.

Maybe you personally don't want salvation for those who may turn back to some sins, and maybe even worse. Perhaps that makes you jealous to think that they remain saved, although having lost all reward and treasures in Heaven...but that is not reason to be jealous of them still being saved. What's with that? What's your beef about them? Does it really bother you that much that they remain saved? Why?

If you find one OSAS believer out there who teaches that it's somehow easy to become a faithful follower of Christ because of OSAS, then lead them to me for a conversation. If you encounter an OSAS follower who thinks they can live on in sin without it costing them something, then, again, lead them to me for a conversation.

If you decide to try and transliteratively corrupt the verses above into saying something they're not saying, then we can converse about that too.

Does all that make sense?

BTW

tooooo many words!

 

[BeforeThereWas]

tooooo many words!

Whatever...

How's that?

BTW

 

[Deleted member 26788]

there is definitely something wrong with the so-called understanding of how the romans tortured men to death . that is Especially true in the case of Jesus' execution. many assume that only a cross was ever used . that's simply not true . when a cross is used it can take days for the one hungup to die . a cross would of been used on men when the romans wanted to make a statement of Contempt . the romans had been Executing men by hanging them up to die for a long time they would of had a good understanding how long a man would of been able to survive . be it hours or days. Jesus and the other two men had to be dead in hours not days . Hitler's Cronies in their experiments on the victims of death hung men up to gain knowledge of what happens when men are suspended hung by the hands with the feet not touching the floor . the same experiments were done with extra weight hung onto the body . death happened even quicker. in the case of the Execution of Jesus and the other two men they were not hung on a cross but on a pole . one nail into each wrist from over their head . being hung that way puts a great deal of pressure on the diaphragm so that getting a breath of air is more and more difficult. they then suffocate.
the romans nailed the feet to the shaft which gave the victims just enough purchase to push them selves up to be able to get part of a breath . then to keep the man from lifting them selves up ,after a few hours ,the legs would be broken . death would then come quickly by suffocation.

 

[soberxp]

God always teach us to obedience,
No matter the OT or NT.
God always teach us to repent,
No matter the OT or NT.

 

[GodsGrace]

God always teach us to obedience,
No matter the OT or NT.
God always teach us to repent,
No matter the OT or NT.

Amen to that soberxp!

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Was the Cross Always Understood?​

It is still not understood today. Large slabs of the 'Christian' world see the cross as appeasing an angry God. They have identified God with the Pagan gods.
The crucifixion was the result of angry men and demons hating a loving God.

If God were angry he wouldn't have sought and brought Adam and Eve promises and gifts
If God were angry he wouldn't have submitted to being murdered.

According to the RCC, Jesus is still angry, allegedly needing Mary to calm Him down, as unbelievable as that is...

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Here's a statement by EG White, 'The cross will be the science and the song of the redeemed throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity'
If we take this at face value I guess what we understand about the cross today is just the tip of an unfathomably big iceberg.

Well, White also had other problems, such as false prophecy, so her comments and teachings aren't really of any consequence today.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Forgiveness is a gift (grace) does not require payment . It comes from the heart of the giver.
1 Corinthians 13:5 tells us that love holds no record of wrongs.
Romans 3:24 tells us we are justified freely by his Grace.

Men interpret 'justice' as a kind of revenge or pay back. God's justice is anything but that; his justice is liberating the oppressed, letting the prisoners go free. All humanity are prisoners of Satan and are oppressed in various forms.

Yes, Jesus took our punishment. We punished him because we hated his purity and he took it without complaint.
God didn't punish him. God gave him strength to bear our punishment of him.

In the Gethsemane just before the mob arrested him, he prayed to his Father (John 17) It is not a prayer to a Father who will punish him as many assume. It's well worth the read.

What's even more wonderful is the mystery revealed to Paul, in that salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for had Satan known that his push for the crucifixion would have brought salvation directly to the Gentiles, he would not have crucified the Lord of Glory, just as scripture declares.

BTW

 

[Grailhunter]

Wait a minute. I don't recall anyone in the OSAS crowd laying claim to there being any good thing about returning to sin.

Let's get real here, shall we?

Since your salvation, did you become sinless? Have you stopped sinning? If you think you've stopped sinning, then where is that stated anywhere in scripture in relation to the saved without you all becoming boasters for your own righteousness?

Better yet, where's the threshold between saved and loss of salvation in your system of theology? Can you draw a graph for us so that we know what to avoid, and what line to not step across as the point where one loses his or her salvation? If there's such a doctrine in scripture, then there's a clear definition of where that line rests, and yet there is no such verse.

You people who believe in loss of salvation, you do indeed believe in works-based salvation, because if you have to apply effort to retain it, then you have had to apply effort to earn it.

Tell me...if a man who had committed millions of murders finds salvation in Christ Jesus, and then steals a candy bar after salvation, is he bound for Hell once again?

Tell me, given that our salvation is by grace through faith, AND Holy Spirit is given as an earnest of our salvation, how could the Father possibly go back on His having given His own Spirit as an earnest of our salvation. If the Father forfeits His own Spirit, then who will get that Spirit once it is severed from the Father? Can that even happen?

2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

2 Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The parallel of financial terms is unmistakable in the power of what they are establishing, which is to say that we are SEALED. What power can possibly hope to break that seal?

No, it cannot and will not happen. The belief in loss of salvation is a false doctrine that pleases the enemy of our souls, fooling some into thinking that the Seal of Holy Spirit by earnest will somehow be broken by the puny power of our actions and, yes, even foolishness on our part.

You have not stopped sinning, and never will in this life. You cannot draw that graph because it's a figment of your imagination.

If you personally harbor doubts about one's ability to rest assured for their salvation, then maybe you don't have it at all.

I for one have no doubts about the power of sanctification that begins at the point of salvation...the new birth. Yes, some have gone back into some sins and such, but they are covered under this:

2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

What part of all this are you not understanding?

The earnest of a part of God Himself unto all the saved, He will not deny...in other words, He will not forfeit any part of Himself by withdrawing what was given in earnest. If you don't understand that terminology, then that's your problem, and I would recommend you researching the terms to understand the Power behind what they're saying.

Maybe you personally don't want salvation for those who may turn back to some sins, and maybe even worse. Perhaps that makes you jealous to think that they remain saved, although having lost all reward and treasures in Heaven...but that is not reason to be jealous of them still being saved. What's with that? What's your beef about them? Does it really bother you that much that they remain saved? Why?

If you find one OSAS believer out there who teaches that it's somehow easy to become a faithful follower of Christ because of OSAS, then lead them to me for a conversation. If you encounter an OSAS follower who thinks they can live on in sin without it costing them something, then, again, lead them to me for a conversation.

If you decide to try and transliteratively corrupt the verses above into saying something they're not saying, then we can converse about that too.

Does all that make sense?

BTW

The heresy of OSAS well explained.

 

[Behold]

Since your salvation, did you become sinless?

Ever born again believer is forgiven all their sin, and they are "made righteous".

So, the real question is.......How does GOD view a Born again Christian?

A.) "Sinless"...... "Made Righteous"....."Justified"...."Sanctified".. and a "SAINT".

Why?

Because "God hath made Jesus to be sin for us"..... because "Jesus is the one time ETERNAL Sacrifice for sin".

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What ive noticed on "christian" forums over the years, is, you have a lot of people on "christian" forums, who claim to be Christians, and yet they have no idea that their sins are forgiven, or they would not have become a CHRISTian.
They believe they still have their sin....., as if Christ has not died for them as their "one time Etermal sacrifice for sin".

Now it could be that these deceived people are really Chrisitans, but it could be that they really are just religious but lost, and that is why they can't comprehend what Jesus has sacrificed so that God will never again see them as a Sinner, or charge a sin to them..

Romans 4:8

2 Corin 5:19

Here is another way to look at being "made righteous"... (sinless).

Q.) Is there any SIN, found in Christ?

Q.) Is there any SIN found in GOD?

Q.) Is there any sin found in Heaven?

A.) = NO

Final answer.. = Every Christian is 'in Christ......."one wtih God", "seated in Heavenly places"......so, if you have sin, you are not "in Christ" or "one with God" or in the KOG... ("Seated in Heavenly places").......because to be there, you have to be sinless... = '"made rightoues".

 

[GodsGrace]

According to the RCC, Jesus is still angry, allegedly needing Mary to calm Him down, as unbelievable as that is...

BTW

The above is absolutely balsphemous against God.
A God that requires someone to calm Him down, is NOT the God of the bible.

To say nothing of the fact that the CC does not teach this.

Please post something authortative from the CC that supports your mistaken statement.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ever born again believer is forgiven all their sin, and they are "made righteous".

So, the real question is.......How does GOD view a Born again Christian?

A.) "Sinless"...... "Made Righteous"....."Justified"...."Sanctified".. and a "SAINT".

Why?

Because "God hath made Jesus to be sin for us"..... because "Jesus is the one time ETERNAL Sacrifice for sin".

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What ive noticed on "christian" forums over the years, is, you have a lot of people on "christian" forums, who claim to be Christians, and yet they have no idea that their sins are forgiven, or they would not have become a CHRISTian.
They believe they still have their sin....., as if Christ has not died for them as their "one time Etermal sacrifice for sin".

Now it could be that these deceived people are really Chrisitans, but it could be that they really are just religious but lost, and that is why they can't comprehend what Jesus has sacrificed so that God will never again see them as a Sinner, or charge a sin to them..

Romans 4:8

2 Corin 5:19

Here is another way to look at being "made righteous"... (sinless).

Q.) Is there any SIN, found in Christ?

Q.) Is there any SIN found in GOD?

Q.) Is there any sin found in Heaven?

A.) = NO

Final answer.. = Every Christian is 'in Christ......."one wtih God", "seated in Heavenly places"......so, if you have sin, you are not "in Christ" or "one with God" or in the KOG... ("Seated in Heavenly places").......because to be there, you have to be sinless... = '"made rightoues".

Are you serious about your Final answer?
This:

Final answer.. = Every Christian is 'in Christ......."one wtih God", "seated in Heavenly places"......so, if you have sin, you are not "in Christ" or "one with God" or in the KOG... ("Seated in Heavenly places").......because to be there, you have to be sinless... = '"made rightoues".

Or are you being sarcastic?

 

[Aunty Jane]

I fully agree with you on faith being the reason for the accounting of righteousness upon Abraham. No argument there. However, I don't know anyone who would not be so honored as that which the Lord spoke about Abraham, in that he obeyed the Law, the statutes and commands of the Lord. That speaks to reward. That parallels us today. Our obedience and good works pile up reward, treasure, in Heaven awaiting us there.

Yes.......works do not earn salvation, but it doesn’t mean that we don’t need to qualify for it by how we live the truth of the Bible’s teachings.
Israel had detailed laws written for their instruction but failed time and again to keep them. Our actions speak louder than our words. In pre-Israelites times, men of faith still had Gods laws and commands to follow, though not in such detail.

On top of that, we also are called something that was not spoken of any patriarch, priest or even angel in Heaven; that being us classified as fellow heirs with Christ Jesus. I yearn to see that inheritance.

Those chosen for a role in heaven do have an inordinate desire to “see that inheritance”....but there are others who will share a different inheritance...one that God purposed for the human race at the very beginning. Everlasting life in paradise on earth.

If God allowed rebellion to derail his first purpose permanently, he would be a failure. (Isa 55:11) He will see his first purpose carried out to its completion, despite the detour.

Rev 21: 2-4 shows us that the human race also have a share in that inheritance as beneficiaries of the covenant Christ made with his “saints”, “for a Kingdom”. Some are chosen for a role in that Kingdom as rulers and priests with Christ (Rev 20:6) whilst others will benefit from their rulership by enjoying the best government that humans on earth have ever had.
Redemption gives them back the life that Adam took away from them. That wasn’t in heaven.

We're all here because of Noah's faith. Had he not faith, he and all his family would have drowned with all the rest.

Yes, he proved by his actions that his faith was not “dead”. (James 2:18-20)

Disobedience has been at the base of all human error......the one thing that God has asked of all his intelligent creation is simply to obey his instructions if we want the life that he is offering.

Disobedience got us into this mess....and our obedience will get us out of it because Christ laid the basis for our sins to be forgiven, and for God’s first purpose for this earth to come to its successful conclusion.

It requires something of us......anything worthwhile always does.

 

[Grailhunter]

There are a lot heretics on Christian forums. I don’t know what they are doing here? They call themselves Christians but is a heretic a Christian? OSAS is religious belief of the devil, that serves the devil souls. If you preach OSAS you are the devil’s messenger.