Can any of you link or share a good argument against FULL preterism?

[grafted branch]

No doubt? Only if they were stupid.

And likewise those who see the flood as a local event see you as stupid.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And likewise those who see the flood as a local event see you as stupid.

I didn't say anything about anyone seeing you as stupid, so why did you go there? I was talking about those who believed the earth is flat. Do you believe that? If not, then why make this personal towards me when I didn't make it personal towards you?

 

[grafted branch]

I didn't say anything about anyone seeing you as stupid, so why did you go there? I was talking about those who believed the earth is flat. Do you believe that? If not, then why make this personal towards me when I didn't make it personal towards you?

I’m going there because you are arguing that people who thought the earth was flat were stupid because they didn’t make observations of the moon and that it was round. Likewise it seems stupid to ignore the geological evidence that the flood was local.

It’s the same thing, the same argument.

 

[claninja]

Here is they Old Testament prophecy.


“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10


Here is Jesus teaching about this fulfillment at His return on the Day of the Lord, which has yet to happen.


“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31


The Jews have not seen Jesus at His coming because Jesus has not returned.



Now it’s time for you to answer my question.


Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1-5



Did the Lord fight against the Roman soldiers who destroyed the temple and the city?

Again, according to the author of Luke/Acts, the law of Moses, psalms, and prophets find their fulfillment, in the following:

1.) The ministry, death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ in the first century
Luke 24:44 44Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

2.) The days of the apostles in the first century
Acts 3:24 24And all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and those who came after him, also proclaimed these days.

3.) The destruction of Jerusalem in the first century
Luke 21:22 22for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

Therefore, i would argue that if Zechariah 14 is NOT about the immediate historical context in which it was written, but instead is intended as “eschatological” prophecy, then it seems, based on the NT passages of Luke 24:44, acts 3:24, and Luke 21:22
, that its eschatological fulfillment should be in the first century.

Unless of course, you could provide any NT passage that claims the fulfillment of scripture (prophets, psalms, law of Moses) would go beyond the first century?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I’m going there because you are arguing that people who thought the earth was flat were stupid because they didn’t make observations of the moon and that it was round.

Yes, so I was talking about them and, presumably, not you, right? You responded with an insult directed towards me. How do you figure that is equivalent? I guess you'd be okay with me saying that those who see things as I do relating to this see you as stupid because of your preterist view of these things?

Likewise it seems stupid to ignore the geological evidence that the flood was local.

That is your opinion based on how some interpret the geological evidence. Others, like me, believe there is geological evidence to support that the flood was global. The tiebreaker here should be scripture, which clearly teaches that the flood was global.

It’s the same thing, the same argument.

How is it the same thing for me to refer to people who died long ago as being stupid for what they believed as you responded by referring to me and what I believe instead of referring to someone else like I did? That's not the same thing.

 

[grafted branch]

Yes, so I was talking about them and, presumably, not you, right? You responded with an insult directed towards me. How do you figure that is equivalent? I guess you'd be okay with me saying that those who see things as I do relating to this see you as stupid because of your preterist view of these things?

I see it as you referring to anyone who would ignore evidence outside of the Bible, such as observations of the moon, as being stupid. You yourself have made that very same argument about the flood being global, do I need to quote you again?

I just applied the very same accusation to you, for the very same reason you applied to it others. To me it seems that’s what it takes to show you what you look like to me, a hypocrite.

That is your opinion based on how some interpret the geological evidence. Others, like me, believe there is geological evidence to support that the flood was global.

Then why didn’t you make that statement beforehand, instead of immediately making accusations that the evidence I had about the flood was somehow an endorsement of God hating scientists.

The tiebreaker here should be scripture, which clearly teaches that the flood was global.

Well the Bible says the earth has four corners, that should be the tie breaker also, right?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I see it as you referring to anyone who would ignore evidence outside of the Bible, such as observations of the moon, as being stupid.

I can't help that you decided to apply something I specifically said about certain people who died long ago to yourself. Just stop doing that.

You yourself have made that very same argument about the flood being global, do I need to quote you again?

I don't know what you're talking about here.

I just applied the very same accusation to you, for the very same reason you applied to it others. To me it seems that’s what it takes to show you what you look like to me, a hypocrite.

I could not possibly care less what you think of me. But, the fact of the matter is that I said nothing personal to or about you and now you're trying to make things personal.

Then why didn’t you make that statement beforehand, instead of immediately making accusations that the evidence I had about the flood was somehow an endorsement of God hating scientists.

What? I can't even understand half of what you say. We should not bother talking to each other. It's a complete waste of time. Do you not remember that we figured this out months ago already? We are just far too different in our thinking to be able to have a reasonable discussion.

Well the Bible says the earth has four corners, that should be the tie breaker also, right?

No. We all know that the Bible does not contradict itself and it clearly refers to the earth as a circle or sphere in Isaiah 40:22, so anyone reading anything referring to the four corners of the earth should take a closer look and think for more than a second about what it's saying.

For example...

Isaiah 11:12 He will set up a banner for the nations, And will assemble the outcasts of Israel, And gather together the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.

To take this literally as if it was literally talking about four corners of a flat, square or rectangle shaped earth, it would mean it's talking about God only gathering together people living within those four corners of the earth, which would be a relatively very small area in comparison to the whole earth. But, that's clearly not the context of what that verse is talking about. It's clearly in relation to God gathering together ALL of "the dispersed of Judah" who are on the earth.

 

[grafted branch]

I can't help that you decided to apply something I specifically said about certain people who died long ago to yourself. Just stop doing that.

You did the very same thing just a few days ago. You made the very same kind of argument that you said made people look stupid in the past.

I would say you need to just stop doing that.

 

[grafted branch]

I don't know what you're talking about here.

Here’s your posts …

No, there are not. Not in scripture. Scripture is very clear that the flood was global. Do you get truth from scripture or from secular scientists who hate God and scripture?

It's pure nonsense for anyone, especially any Christian, to deny that the flood was global. Some people allow biased secular scientists to tell them what happened instead of scripture. It's absolutely pathetic.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You did the very same thing just a few days ago. You made the very same kind of argument that you said made people look stupid in the past.

I would say you need to just stop doing that.

Is being specific just something you're not interested in? What are you talking about exactly?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here’s your posts …

Yeah, so? How does this relate at all to what I'm saying about those who believed in a flat earth? Is it too much to ask for you to be specific about whatever point you're trying to make here? All I see is a false equivalence here, but I can only guess as to what exactly you are intending to show here in relation to what we were talking about.

 

[grafted branch]

Yeah, so? How does this relate at all to what I'm saying about those who believed in a flat earth? Is it too much to ask for you to be specific about whatever point you're trying to make here? All I see is a false equivalence here, but I can only guess as to what exactly you are intending to show here in relation to what we were talking about.

Can you not see yourself? In this thread, in post#600, you claimed people who believed the earth was flat were stupid because they should’ve made observations of the moon. That is, observations outside of the Bible.

I just quoted you saying this …

“Do you get truth from scripture or from secular scientists who hate God and scripture?”

Secular God hating scientists think the earth is round. Therefore you agree with the God hating scientists, right? This is the type of arguments you produce. You yourself agree with the God hating scientists when it comes to the earth being round, even when the Bible says it has four corners. Yet when those same God hating scientists say it was a local flood you try to use that as a reason why they shouldn’t be believed, you said it was pathetic. But apparently it isn’t pathetic when it comes to you believing them that the earth is round.

I’m not sure why you can’t see yourself but you do more damage to the Amill view than anyone else on this forum, in my opinion.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Can you not see yourself? In this thread, in post#600, you claimed people who believed the earth was flat were stupid because they should’ve made observations of the moon. That is, observations outside of the Bible.

No, I added that tidbit that they could have also looked at that, but my primary argument is that they should have accepted what is written in Isaiah 40:22. Why did you leave that part out while acting as if I only referenced the moon? Because you are dishonest, that's why. You are going out of your way to misrepresent what I say, which you have done many times.

I just quoted you saying this …

“Do you get truth from scripture or from secular scientists who hate God and scripture?”

Secular God hating scientists think the earth is round. Therefore you agree with the God hating scientists, right?

About that one thing. So what? Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

This is the type of arguments you produce. You yourself agree with the God hating scientists when it comes to the earth being round, even when the Bible says it has four corners.

No, the Bible says it is round. I showed you the context of one of the verses referring to the four corners of the earth and that the context clearly related to the entire earth and not the literal four corners of a flat earth.

Yet when those same God hating scientists say it was a local flood you try to use that as a reason why they shouldn’t be believed, you said it was pathetic.

You are just not able to understand anything you read. It's pathetic that they don't accept what is taught in the Bible which should take precedence over everything, but it doesn't for you, obviously.

But apparently it isn’t pathetic when it comes to you believing them that the earth is round.

LOL. I don't base my beliefs just on what they say as you do. You put their word over God's word. That's the point, but you never get the point.

I’m not sure why you can’t see yourself but you do more damage to the Amill view than anyone else on this forum, in my opinion.

Your opinion means nothing and I highly doubt any non-preterist Amill would agree with you about that. Preterism has blinded you and your doctrine does far more damage to eschatology and to the word of God in general than mine does. That's for certain.

 

[JLB]

Again, according to the author of Luke/Acts, the law of Moses, psalms, and prophets find their fulfillment, in the following:

1.) The ministry, death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ in the first century
Luke 24:44 44Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

2.) The days of the apostles in the first century
Acts 3:24 24And all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and those who came after him, also proclaimed these days.

3.) The destruction of Jerusalem in the first century
Luke 21:22 22for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

Therefore, i would argue that if Zechariah 14 is NOT about the immediate historical context in which it was written, but instead is intended as “eschatological” prophecy, then it seems, based on the NT passages of Luke 24:44, acts 3:24, and Luke 21:22
, that its eschatological fulfillment should be in the first century.

Unless of course, you could provide any NT passage that claims the fulfillment of scripture (prophets, psalms, law of Moses) would go beyond the first century?

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1-5



Did the Lord fight against the Roman soldiers who destroyed the temple and the city in 70 AD?

 

[grafted branch]

No, I added that tidbit that they could have also looked at that, but my primary argument is that they should have accepted what is written in Isaiah 40:22. Why did you leave that part out while acting as if I only referenced the moon? Because you are dishonest, that's why. You are going out of your way to misrepresent what I say, which you have done many times.


About that one thing. So what? Even a broken clock is right twice a day.


No, the Bible says it is round. I showed you the context of one of the verses referring to the four corners of the earth and that the context clearly related to the entire earth and not the literal four corners of a flat earth.


You are just not able to understand anything you read. It's pathetic that they don't accept what is taught in the Bible which should take precedence over everything, but it doesn't for you, obviously.


LOL. I don't base my beliefs just on what they say as you do. You put their word over God's word. That's the point, but you never get the point.


Your opinion means nothing and I highly doubt any non-preterist Amill would agree with you about that. Preterism has blinded you and your doctrine does far more damage to eschatology and to the word of God in general than mine does. That's for certain.

All I can say is that I’m praying for you brother.

 

[grafted branch]

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1-5



Did the Lord fight against the Roman soldiers who destroyed the temple and the city in 70 AD?

One thing I have observed about Zechariah 14 is that it talks about both the earthly Jerusalem and new Jerusalem but it never makes the distinction between the two, it just calls them both Jerusalem.

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

This verse is the earthly Jerusalem, it’s being attacked and has evil entering it.



Zechariah 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

This is the new Jerusalem as seen in Revelation 21:1-4.



So I see Zechariah 14 being about the transition from earthly Jerusalem to the heavenly Jerusalem. I suppose the various end time views place that happening at different points in time but maybe we can agree that is what Zechariah 14 is talking about.

 

[JLB]

Zechariah 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

This is the new Jerusalem as seen in Revelation 21:1-4.

‘I do not agree.

Jesus and His saints will live and reign on earth for 1000 years, then after that the New Jerusalem will come down.


And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“The LORD is one,”
And His name one.
All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.
The people shall dwell in it;
And no longer shall there be utter destruction,
But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
Zechariah 14:9-12


And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. Zechariah 14:16-17

This is during the 1000 year reign.


After the 1000 years the New Jerusalem will come down as a bride.


But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.
Revelation 21:22-23


‘The feast of tabernacles is celebrated in the temple.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

All I can say is that I’m praying for you brother.

Don't forget to pray for yourself and ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7)

 

[grafted branch]

‘I do not agree.

Jesus and His saints will live and reign on earth for 1000 years, then after that the New Jerusalem will come down.


And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“The LORD is one,”
And His name one.
All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.
The people shall dwell in it;
And no longer shall there be utter destruction,
But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
Zechariah 14:9-12


And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. Zechariah 14:16-17

This is during the 1000 year reign.


After the 1000 years the New Jerusalem will come down as a bride.


But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.
Revelation 21:22-23


‘The feast of tabernacles is celebrated in the temple.

Ok, in Revelation 21:1 it says And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Wouldn’t this mean that the earthly Jerusalem does see destruction when the first heaven and first earth pass away?

Keep in mind Zechariah 14:11 where it says “and there shall be no more utter destruction”.

 

[JLB]

Ok, in Revelation 21:1 it says And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Wouldn’t this mean that the earthly Jerusalem does see destruction when the first heaven and first earth pass away?

Keep in mind Zechariah 14:11 where it says “and there shall be no more utter destruction”.

I believe from the language used that Zechariah 14:11 refers to an earthly Jerusalem whose King is Jesus.


The New Jerusalem that comes down from heaven has no temple.


Furthermore God the Father will dwell there.