Doctrine of Predestination

[David Lamb]

Only the Apostles. Only the Jews were elected, but not all Jews are saved. Even Judas was predestined, BUT NOT SAVED.

But Paul's words to the Ephesian Christians were not only abut the apostles:

“having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (Eph 1:5-7 NKJV)

It wasn't just the apostles who were adopted sons of God, who were made accepted in the beloved, who had redemption and forgiveness of sins. Those things, including being predestined, are true of all Christians.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

More calvinist lies and deception.

Don't compare me with John Calvin. Calvinists believe we are ALL predestinated, but John writes in a way that shows those first century Christians that only the Apostles were predestinated, and God knows the rest of us through His foreknowledge. It looks like many here on the forum have never studied beyond high school.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

John writes in a way that shows those first century Christians that only the Apostles were predestinated

More calvinist lies and deception.

And stop trying to teach men... it's not only unbiblical, it's demonic

Maybe spend time teaching your false doctrine to other ladies or to children

 

[1stCenturyLady]

But Paul's words to the Ephesian Christians were not only abut the apostles:

“having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (Eph 1:5-7 NKJV)

It wasn't just the apostles who were adopted sons of God, who were made accepted in the beloved, who had redemption and forgiveness of sins. Those things, including being predestined, are true of all Christians.

David, verses 5-7 are in the middle of Paul's certifying who was writing to them. He was an Apostle! He had authority. The rest of us "also believed" starting with verse 13. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

The Ephesians were not predestinated as people. But only predistinated to be "conformed to the image of Christ.". Romans 8:29.

Understand?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

More calvinist lies and deception.

And stop trying to teach men... it's not only unbiblical, it's demonic

Maybe spend time teaching your false doctrine to other ladies or to children

I have the office of Teacher with the gift of prophecy. I can teach men. In fact, I teach pastors. Just because you are a man doesn't mean that what you teach is from God. In fact, it's NOT.

 

[JLB]

I have the office of Teacher with the gift of prophecy. I can teach men. In fact, I teach pastors. Just because you are a man doesn't mean that what you teach is from God. In fact, it's NOT.

‘There are many mighty women of God that are good teachers and prophets today.


Could you answer a question?

I’’m hoping to find common ground based on what the scriptures say.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9


Based on the above mentioned scripture do you believe it’s necessary for an unsaved person to confess Jesus as Lord, to become saved?

 

[One 2 question]

God is All knowing. He knows every individual Before they are born AND their Fate.

Yes, as He wrote the script.

Of course God desired ALL of His Creations would Choose to Trust and Believe IN Him.

And that we will.

All Shall See Him…and Believe.

absolutely

But All will Not Be Saved.

If you mean by this, they are not born again, not filled and sealed with the Spirit of God and not appointed as kings and priests in King Jesus's 1000 kingdom, then I agree with you.

Men must All choose their Belief BEFORE their Body’s Dies.

To enter Jesus kingdom, for sure. Those chosen by God, God will enable us to choose to believe in Christ and to follow Him.

The believers shall be in their new bodies.

absolutely

…and remain alive forever with God.

hallelujah

The unbelievers in their old bodies.
…and Life of their soul returns to God, and their lifeless body and lifeless soul destroyed in hell, forever without God and they remembered no more.

Those in hell will be transferred into the lake of fire. From there, in an age to come they will all come to acknowledge the love of their Creator and be drawn to Him. Then God will draw near to them, redeem and reconcile all to Himself. Now this is the good news of the love of God reconciling everyone to Himself. As we know He is not willing, nor has He planned that any should perish but that ALL will come to repentance. This is very much a part of the Creators script and we know that nothing or
no one can stop His script from being carried out.

Glory to God!

 

[David Lamb]

More calvinist lies and deception.

And stop trying to teach men... it's not only unbiblical, it's demonic

Maybe spend time teaching your false doctrine to other ladies or to children

The idea of 1stCenturyLady that only the apostles were predestined is not found in Calvinism at all, so why call her post "Calvinist lies and deception?"

 

[David Lamb]

David, verses 5-7 are in the middle of Paul's certifying who was writing to them. He was an Apostle! He had authority. The rest of us "also believed" starting with verse 13. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

The Ephesians were not predestinated as people. But only predistinated to be "conformed to the image of Christ.". Romans 8:29.

Understand?

But the verses I quoted, Ephesians 1:5-7, don't only mention predestination. They mention things which apply to all Christians. Paul certainly wasn't saying that only apostles were adopted into God's family, accepted by God, redeemed or forgiven. So why should the predestination apply only to apostles? Paul also wrote in Romans:

“Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.” (Ro 8:30 NKJV)

It is even clearer there that he is not writing only about apostles. If he only meant apostles there, you would have to believe that only apostles are called, justified and glorified by God. Take justification, for example. Elsewhere in Romans, Paul wrote that all believers in Jesus Christ are justified:

“But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,” (Ro 3:21-24 NKJV)

 

[Taken]

Those in hell will be transferred into the lake of fire. From there, in an age to come they will all come to acknowledge the love of their Creator and be drawn to Him. Then God will draw near to them, redeem and reconcile all to Himself.
Now this is the good news of the love of God reconciling everyone to Himself. As we know He is not willing, nor has He planned that any should perish but that ALL will come to repentance. This is very much a part of the Creators script and we know that nothing or
no one can stop His script from being carried out.

Hello-

I have no issue with the words you say…
But do not quite get your final point…understanding.

Do you believe/understand “every manKind” shall ultimately be “saved”, have eternal Like and be With God?

Thanks.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[1stCenturyLady]

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9


Based on the above mentioned scripture do you believe it’s necessary for an unsaved person to confess Jesus as Lord, to become saved?

Paul is actually speaking of the Jews who keep the Law of Moses. They already do righteousness. But the law is not inside of their nature. They still have the sin nature due to Adam's sin. The only way for them to be saved is to believe on Jesus and that God raised Him from the dead. Then Jesus will take away the desire to sin from their nature, leaving them clean and born again of the Spirit. This makes them truly righteous, though not holy...yet

1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Revelation 22:11b
he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

John writes on righteousness:
1 John 3:4-9
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

It is Peter who writes how to be holy (never stumble).
1 Peter 1:16; 2 Peter 1:2-11

 

[Taken]

‘There are many mighty women of God that are good teachers and prophets today.


Could you answer a question?

I’’m hoping to find common ground based on what the scriptures say.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9


Based on the above mentioned scripture do you believe it’s necessary for an unsaved person to confess Jesus as Lord, to become saved?

JLB- I See your question was addressed to a specific person. I am not responding for her, but rather for myself.

Agree “IF” a person Confesses, Jesus Is Lord…
Agree “their” soul shall be Saved.

I believe, IF that person’s…
1) Confession (of Belief) IS from their hearts Belief…
Right THEN their Soul is Made Saved…
What say you?

I believe, IF that person…
1) Also by his Word / Confession (also from his Heart), Willingness to lay down his own Life unto Death unto for The Lord God; For/Because of his Belief…
Right THEN The Lord God Shall accept the mans Body unto Death Offering,
2) And inturn…(the Lord God)…Shall Birth (from Gods SEED), within That man a new Everlasting spirit.
What say you?

Thanks.

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[1stCenturyLady]

But the verses I quoted, Ephesians 1:5-7, don't only mention predestination. They mention things which apply to all Christians. Paul certainly wasn't saying that only apostles were adopted into God's family, accepted by God, redeemed or forgiven. So why should the predestination apply only to apostles? Paul also wrote in Romans:

“Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.” (Ro 8:30 NKJV)

It is even clearer there that he is not writing only about apostles. If he only meant apostles there, you would have to believe that only apostles are called, justified and glorified by God. Take justification, for example. Elsewhere in Romans, Paul wrote that all believers in Jesus Christ are justified:

“But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,” (Ro 3:21-24 NKJV)

Some things do apply to both the apostles and to us, but they are written elsewhere as well.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons (not sons and daughters) by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

 

[One 2 question]

Hello-

I have no issue with the words you say…
But do not quite get your final point…understanding.

Do you believe/understand “every manKind” shall ultimately be “saved”, have eternal Like and be With God?

Thanks.

Glory to God,
Taken

Absolutely an incredible revelation of the Person and character of the Creator, Who is God. And God being love will reconcile all to Himself through the blood of His Sacrificial Lamb.

 

[Taken]

Absolutely an incredible revelation of the Person and character of the Creator, Who is God. And God being love will reconcile all to Himself through the blood of His Sacrificial Lamb.

Thanks.
What do you specifically mean by “reconcile”?

 

[JLB]

JLB- I See your question was addressed to a specific person. I am not responding for her, but rather for myself.

Agree “IF” a person Confesses, Jesus Is Lord…
Agree “their” soul shall be Saved.

I believe, IF that person’s…
1) Confession (of Belief) IS from their hearts Belief…
Right THEN their Soul is Made Saved…
What say you?

I believe, IF that person…
1) Also by his Word / Confession (also from his Heart), Willingness to lay down his own Life unto Death unto for The Lord God; For/Because of his Belief…
Right THEN The Lord God Shall accept the mans Body unto Death Offering,
2) And inturn…(the Lord God)…Shall Birth (from Gods SEED), within That man a new Everlasting spirit.
What say you?

Thanks.

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

You are saying many things that are not found in the scripture I quoted.

You may well be right in what you say.

Thanks for your question, and your post.

 

[JLB]

Paul is actually speaking of the Jews who keep the Law of Moses. They already do righteousness. But the law is not inside of their nature. They still have the sin nature due to Adam's sin. The only way for them to be saved is to believe on Jesus and that God raised Him from the dead. Then Jesus will take away the desire to sin from their nature, leaving them clean and born again of the Spirit. This makes them truly righteous, though not holy...yet

1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Revelation 22:11b
he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

John writes on righteousness:
1 John 3:4-9
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

It is Peter who writes how to be holy (never stumble).
1 Peter 1:16; 2 Peter 1:2-11

Thank you for your thoughts, and response.


I asking you a specific question about an unsaved person, (Jew or Gentile) and how an unsaved person becomes saved.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9


Based on the above mentioned scripture do you believe it’s necessary for an unsaved person to confess Jesus as Lord, to become saved?

 

[David Lamb]

Some things do apply to both the apostles and to us, but they are written elsewhere as well.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons (not sons and daughters) by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

According to Strong's Concordance, the Greek word translated "adoption as sons" in the KJV ("adoption as children" in the NKJV) has the following entry:

5206. huiothesia [hwee-oth-es-ee -ah;] from a presumed compound of 5207 and a derivative of 5087; the placing as a son, i.e. adoption (figuratively, Christian sonship in respect to God): adoption (of children, of sons).

So you can't make a point by saying that it says "sons", not "sons and daughters."

 

[Taken]

You are saying many things that are not found in the scripture I quoted.

THAT, which I said, is a study, involving several Scriptures, that which reveals …
The more complex issue of Salvation…

Briefly…
Salvation is “always given a person”… AFTER a bodily Death is “accounted” in Gods “records of Evidence”… the “Books”.

Before Jesus was Sent…
Many OT men believed in God and His Word, (before Gods Word’s NAME) was revealed.
They believing to their “physical death” were then, still today, into future…ARE Saved by God… (After their physical death) and shall be Risen, first Resurrection.

Since Jesus, for the last 2,000 years +… and the New Better Testament…
Jesus revealed … is the Word of God.
Jesus, the Word of God … revealed is the Christ.
The Christ … has the Authority AND Power to Save mens souls… BEFORE a mans “physical Death”
( Aka Crucified with Jesus’ Body ).
These individuals…
Are Made Forgiven for having NOT Believed.
Are Made Soul saved.
Are Made Spirit born again.
Are Made (accounted) Bodily Crucified Dead.
Are Made living “IN Christs” Risen Body (until their own body is glorified and Risen.
Their name is entered into the Baptizer, (Lamb of God) Book of Life (never able to be blotted out..
THEY… are Accounted WHOLE;
body, soul, spirit…
And await for their Savior, Redeemer, Lord, to summon THEM TO Him…
Ie. “RAPTURE”…
They saved by The Lamb of God, For Christ the Lord TO … Forgive, Save, Redeem, Justify, Call to Him, Remain with Him, Serve Him in His Earthly Kingdom for 1,000 years…
…And thereafter God deals with fallen angels, and any who have died or are living that which rejected God.

Easy to be complicated, without going bit by bit through (Very very time and patience consuming) all the relative Scriptures for every fact of who, what, when, where, why.

I do not know what or how others study, thus only speak for myself, which many times my study area, notes, multiple bibles, charts, grafts… looks like my investigation efforts … is a new fangled wall paper. Ha.

You may well be right in what you say.

We each I presume know the extent or lack of effort. And I do presume many are content to simply believe what they have been their whole life, told to believe.

John 10:
[27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
[28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
[29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Thanks for your question, and your post.

Ditto. God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Thank you for your thoughts, and response.


I asking you a specific question about an unsaved person, (Jew or Gentile) and how an unsaved person becomes saved.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9


Based on the above mentioned scripture do you believe it’s necessary for an unsaved person to confess Jesus as Lord, to become saved?

I'm a Teacher. I'm teaching you to NOT take Scripture out of context. There is nothing about being born again of the Spirit and how to be. Read from verse 1 as I provided you and you ignored.