It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

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TrevorHL

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Greetings again WPM,
You cannot address any rebuttals.
I consider much of your exposition confusing.
All you have is the faulty framework you have been taught.
You have made this type of accusation earlier and I gave an answer to this false accusation. What exactly are you inferring by this accusation. Are you claiming that you are the only one who understands the teaching of the Scriptures, and that any else who disagrees with you is ignoring the Scriptural teaching and that they only adopt the wrong teaching of their environment.
It seems like you are just repeating what you have been taught.

I have considered this subject over many years, and yes this is clearly taught in my environment, but I am careful in deciding what I accept.

You force it into text after text that makes no mention of a future millennium.
This is one area of your statements that I find confusing. When does the 1000 years start and finish?

The resurrection of the righteous must therefore happen at the end of the millennium
I should imagine you have an elaborate explanation of the following, but I read the resurrection of the faithful to be at the beginning of the 1000 years.
Revelation 20:4–6 (KJV): 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I suggest that Acts 3:19-21 is simple and clear and needs no further explanation, as it speaks for itself and clearly teaches the Premillennial view.
This is pure laziness on your part. I guess you just have no interest in actually making any effort to support your doctrine, which means we can't take you seriously at all. Which I already knew.

I am not sure of the distinction, though I imagine there are a number of opinions.
You don't know the difference between pre-trib and premill? Have you never heard of post-trib? Do you believe in a pre-trib or post-trib rapture? Premill is the belief that Jesus returns before the thousand years and pre-trib is the belief that the rapture occurs before the tribulation that occurs just before Jesus returns.

I consider "the last days" of Isaiah 2:1-4 is defined by its immediate context, not by equating this with Hebrews 1:1-2. There are many rules to be considered when interpreting, and comparing "scripture with scripture" is important, but not absolute or valid in all contexts.
Incredibly lame and weak response. You have to invent multiple "last days" and multiple new heavens and multiple new earths to make your doctrine work. I can't take it seriously at all.

In this instance I suggest that you are using this to support an error. The "last days" is obviously, partly by its very terminology, not a period of 2000 years or more.
LOL. According to scripture, it is, and I showed you that very clearly. You have no interest in learning anything. I very clearly showed Peter talking about the last days in relation to Pentecost (Acts 2:16-21) and also in relation to the second coming of Christ (2 Peter 3:3-4), so the last days covers the time period between the first and second coming of Christ and not an imaginary time period after His second coming.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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No wonder! You dodge the multiple holes in your argument. All you want to do is talk and not address.
He makes no effort at all to exegete any scripture or to defend his doctrine.

You have presented zero Scripture that supports a Pretrib rapture. Nothing!

It is pointless engaging with you.
He is clearly unwilling to make any effort to address any challenges we give to his beliefs or to make any attempt to show how scripture supports his views. He thinks he can just make a couple scripture references and that is enough to win the debate. It's just ridiculous.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I should imagine you have an elaborate explanation of the following, but I read the resurrection of the faithful to be at the beginning of the 1000 years.
Revelation 20:4–6 (KJV): 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Kind regards
Trevor
You need to learn to interpret scripture with scripture. Look at verse 6 in particular there.

It says that those who have part in the first resurrection are "blessed and holy" and that the second death has no power over them. And it says that they are "priests of God and of Christ" and reign with Christ a thousand years.

That is speaking of a current reality. Do you not believe that Jesus is your King right now and reigns right now? Scripture says we are in His kingdom now and He reigns now.

Colossians 1:12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Ephesians 1:19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come. 22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church,

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.

Scripture also teaches that we are priests in His kingdom right now.

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Do you think the second death has any power over believers right now or over the dead in Christ right now? It doesn't. The second death is eternity in the lake of fire (Rev 20:14-15). Those who belong to Christ are destined for eternal life in the new heavens and new earth, not the lake of fire. So, the second death has no power right now over any who belong to Christ, whether physically alive or not. John indicated that the second death has no power over those who have had part in the first resurrection. Since the second death has no power over anyone who belongs to Christ, then that means those who belong to Christ have had part in the first resurrection. And we have. Scripture teaches that His resurrection is the first resurrection and believers have all had part in it.

The first resurrection:

Acts 26:23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”


Having part in the first resurrection:

Colossians 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

Your Premill understanding of Revelation 20 simply does not line up with the rest of scripture, including the scriptures I showed above. You clearly do not know how to interpret scripture with scripture. You try to use passages like Isaiah 2:1-4 to understand Revelation 20, but that passage is about the last days which scriptures says occur between the first and second coming of Christ. You have no clear, straightforward scriptures that you can use to support your interpretation of Revelation 20, but Amills have many clear, straightforward scriptures to support your doctrine.
 

WPM

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He makes no effort at all to exegete any scripture or to defend his doctrine.


He is clearly unwilling to make any effort to address any challenges we give to his beliefs or to make any attempt to show how scripture supports his views. He thinks he can just make a couple scripture references and that is enough to win the debate. It's just ridiculous.
No Pretrib is. The Pretrib doctrine is dying.
 

WPM

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Greetings again WPM,

I consider much of your exposition confusing.

You have made this type of accusation earlier and I gave an answer to this false accusation. What exactly are you inferring by this accusation. Are you claiming that you are the only one who understands the teaching of the Scriptures, and that any else who disagrees with you is ignoring the Scriptural teaching and that they only adopt the wrong teaching of their environment.





This is one area of your statements that I find confusing. When does the 1000 years start and finish?


I should imagine you have an elaborate explanation of the following, but I read the resurrection of the faithful to be at the beginning of the 1000 years.
Revelation 20:4–6 (KJV): 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Kind regards
Trevor
  • I recognize the importance of interpreting Scripture with Scripture.
  • I recognize the symbolic setting.
  • I recognize what the first resurrection is and how it is the source of life to the Church.
 

Ronald D Milam

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The reality is: Pretrib is dead. It is time to give it a decent burial.
We are correct and you are in error. Whenever I see a person who can not get the simple raptures timing correct, I know not to heed his advice on anything to do with Eschatology.
 

Scott Downey

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We are in the 'last days' or 'latter days' today and have been since the first advent of Christ.
In Hebrews, Corinthians this, our last 2000 years is called the end of the ages.
This is so clear from the writings.
The only thing left is Christ's return, the judgment, and the eternal blessed state of God living with His people in His New earth and New heavens in which dwells righteousness.

1 Corinthians 10:11
Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Hebrews 9:26
He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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We are correct and you are in error. Whenever I see a person who can not get the simple raptures timing correct, I know not to heed his advice on anything to do with Eschatology.
Agree. Which is why I know not to heed your advice on anything to do with Eschatology.
 

TrevorHL

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Greetings again Spiritual Israelite and WPM,
You have no interest in learning anything.
He makes no effort at all to exegete any scripture or to defend his doctrine.
It says that those who have part in the first resurrection are "blessed and holy" and that the second death has no power over them. And it says that they are "priests of God and of Christ" and reign with Christ a thousand years.
That is speaking of a current reality.
Could you give your understanding of the expression "one thousand years". When does this period start and finish. So according to you these faithful have already been resurrected and are with Jesus as kings and priests now.
I recognize what the first resurrection is and how it is the source of life to the Church.
Same as above, could you give your understanding of the expression "one thousand years". When does this period start and finish. So according to you these faithful have already been resurrected and are with Jesus as kings and priests now, but you stated earlier that the first resurrection is at the end of the millennium.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Could you give your understanding of the expression "one thousand years". When does this period start and finish. So according to you these faithful have already been resurrected and are with Jesus as kings and priests now.
It seems that you have read a good number of WPM's posts and of my posts as well. How are you still not familiar with how we understand the thousand years? Do you not know what Amillennialists like us believe? If not, why do you try to debate us? It makes no sense to debate against something you don't even understand. But, at least it looks like you're finally trying to understand what we believe better now.

In scripture, the word "thousand" sometimes is used figuratively. Here are just a couple of examples...

Deuteronomy 7:9 “Therefore know that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

Psalm 50:10 For every beast of the forest is Mine, And the cattle on a thousand hills.

Obviously, the first verse there is not saying that God only keeps covenant and mercy for literally "a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments" and then no longer does so once the 1001st generation comes along. The word "thousand" is used there figuratively to refer to all generations, however many there may be. The word "thousand" symbolically represents a large, undetermined number there.

In the second verse, it's obviously not saying that God only owns the cattle on a thousand hills, but not the rest of the hills. Again, it figuratively uses the word "thousand" to represent a large, undetermined number. And that's what I believe is the case in relation to the thousand years as well.

What is the case during the thousand years? According to Revelation 20:6, Jesus reigns and His people are His priests in His kingdom during the thousand years, right? Well, scripture says that He reigns now (Matt 28:18, Col 1:12-13, Eph 1:19-22, Rev 1:5) and that His people are His priests now (1 Peter 2:9, Rev 1:6). Also, it says the second death has no power over those who have part in the first resurrection and the second death has no power over anyone who belongs to Christ right now. These are things that you have to take into consideration when interpreting Revelation 20.

As for your question about when the thousand years starts and finishes, I believe it started with the resurrection of Jesus Christ. He said after His resurrection that all power in heaven and earth had been given to Him (Matt 28:18). It ends when Satan's little season begins and I associate what Paul talked about in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 with Satan's little season. It's marked by a time of increased deception, wickedness and apostasy because of the removal on the restraint on wickedness, as Paul talked about. I think that time period likely has already begun.

As for those faithful already being resurrected, I don't believe they have been bodily resurrected. I explained how I understand the first resurrection and having part in the first resurrection in post #2,324. I'll repeat what I said there in case you missed it.

Scripture teaches that Christ's resurrection is the first resurrection and believers have all had part in it.

The first resurrection:

Acts 26:23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

Having part in the first resurrection:


Colossians 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

Romans 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life..... 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 

TrevorHL

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Greetings again Spiritual Israelite,
Do you not know what Amillennialists like us believe?
I appreciate your explanation of how you understand the one thousand years and the first resurrection. I will hold onto my understanding of these terms and when these events will occur. I anticipate the return of Jesus is very near when he will gather the faithful most of whom he will raise from the dead at that time and he will appoint them to be kings and priests over mortal Israel and the nations when he reigns on the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem on earth for the one thousand years.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

WPM

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We are correct and you are in error. Whenever I see a person who can not get the simple raptures timing correct, I know not to heed his advice on anything to do with Eschatology.
Here you go again - more noise and zero Scripture.

Show us any Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by a tribulation period of any length, followed by a third coming of the Lord?
 
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Bladerunner

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Here you go again - more noise and zero Scripture.

Show us any Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by a tribulation period of any length, followed by a third coming of the Lord?
you would not listen if I told you. otherwise you would already know.
 

WPM

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See this is the problem.

You can say you disagree with the evidence. But you can not say there is no evidence. That is just plain false. and has absolutely no bearing of truth..

in fact.t here is more evidence Pre-trib MAY be true. than there is evidence you can submit to prove there is no evidence.

Lighten up my friend. Its not a salvic issue, and not worth attacking your brothers over.
When are you going to address the biblical evidence in the Op?
 

Scott Downey

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People cannot claim scriptural support for pre-trib. But they do have church traditions, the words of preachers and books, movies, and commentaries they can read. Similar then to JW Watchtower, Mormon literature, non canonical books and such like that.
 

WPM

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People cannot claim scriptural support for pre-trib. But they do have church traditions, the words of preachers and books, movies, and commentaries they can read. Similar then to JW Watchtower, Mormon literature, non canonical books and such like that.
Pretrib was invented at the same time as many of the leading cults. It was an era of confusion and deception.
 

Ronald D Milam

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Here you go again - more noise and zero Scripture.

Show us any Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by a tribulation period of any length, followed by a third coming of the Lord?
I do not chew my cud twice. The Lord doesn't want us wasting time explaining something to people who do not want to hear the facts.
 

WPM

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I do not chew my cud twice. The Lord doesn't want us wasting time explaining something to people who do not want to hear the facts.
LOL. You have nothing. Pretrib has nothing. You know it!

It is a Jesuit invention foisted on Protestantism to confuse and divide.

If you had hard Scripture you would be the first to present it. The reality is you don't.
 
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