It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[Scott Downey]

Pretrib was invented at the same time as many of the leading cults. It was an era of confusion and deception.

Latter times, as opposed to last days, might apply then. All the various versions use 'latter or later times'

1 Timothy 4:1 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

KJ21
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils,
ASV
But the Spirit saith expressly, that in later times some shall fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons,
AMP
But the [Holy] Spirit explicitly and unmistakably declares that in later times some will turn away from the faith, paying attention instead to deceitful and seductive spirits and doctrines of demons,
AMPC
But the [Holy] Spirit distinctly and expressly declares that in latter times some will turn away from the faith, giving attention to deluding and seducing spirits and doctrines that demons teach,
EASY
God's Spirit tells us clearly that, in later times, some people will stop believing the message about Jesus Christ. Instead, they will listen to bad spirits who want people to believe wrong things. They will listen to the message that comes from demons.
EHV
The Spirit clearly says that, in later times, some will fall away from the faith, because they devote themselves to deceitful spirits and the doctrines of demons,
ESV
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,
ESVUK
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,
EXB
Now the ·Holy Spirit [L Spirit] clearly says that in the later times some people will ·stop believing [abandon; desert] the faith [2 Thess. 2:3–9; 2 Tim. 3:1]. They will ·follow [occupy themselves with; devote themselves to] ·spirits that lie [deceiving spirits] and teachings of demons.
GNV
1 He condemneth as well false doctrine, 3 of marriage and the choice of meats, 7 as also profane fables: 8 and commendeth the godly exercise, 13 and the daily reading of the Scriptures. Now the Spirit speaketh evidently, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, and shall give heed unto spirits of error, and doctrines of devils,
GW
The Spirit says clearly that in later times some believers will desert the Christian faith. They will follow spirits that deceive, and they will believe the teachings of demons.
GNT
The Spirit says clearly that some people will abandon the faith in later times; they will obey lying spirits and follow the teachings of demons.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL. You have nothing. Pretrib has nothing. You know it!

It is a Jesuit invention foisted on Protestantism to confuse and divide.

If you had hard Scripture you would be the first to present it. The reality is you don't.

Absolutely true. Over and over again when we ask pretribs to back up their claims by exegeting scripture and showing where pretrib is taught in scripture, they decline. They know it can't be done. Why do people believe in a doctrine that they know full well can't be supported by scripture? I just don't get it. So many people just believe what they want to believe. It makes no sense to me at all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

People cannot claim scriptural support for pre-trib. But they do have church traditions, the words of preachers and books, movies, and commentaries they can read. Similar then to JW Watchtower, Mormon literature, non canonical books and such like that.

Look what happens repeatedly any time we challenge them to address our arguments or to back up their pre-trib doctrine with scripture. They refuse to do it. They use the excuse that we wouldn't believe them even if they did, but the reality is that they have no scripture to back up their doctrine. That is why they don't even attempt to offer any kind of coherent arguments to back up their doctrine.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

bury pre-trib?
Kinda Difficult to "get rid of" God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided, eh?

God's Great GRACE Departure!

??? invented like cults? has nothing? declining to discuss? uses excuses? words of preachers and books?
etc. etc. etc.???

How about we BURY ALL of these accusations, eh? Close ( BURY? ) this thread???

However, Still "praying without ceasing!"

Amen.

 

[marks]

Look what happens repeatedly any time we challenge them to address our arguments or to back up their pre-trib doctrine with scripture. They refuse to do it. They use the excuse that we wouldn't believe them even if they did, but the reality is that they have no scripture to back up their doctrine. That is why they don't even attempt to offer any kind of coherent arguments to back up their doctrine.

There is no point pursuing these things with someone who does not recognize both Israel and the body of Christ for who and what they are. So long as you believe that National Israel has been cast out by God, there will be no agreement on a great number of things, including eschatology.

Anytime I've discussed such things with you, and a number of others, the response from you is that the many passages in Scripture that give ironclad promises that God will yet save and establish national Israel - the children of Jacob, your response is that they just are not true, and that is not valid when you are talking about God's Word.

So there is no discussion, or very limited, because denying the validity of the Bible is a conversation killer, when we are discussing the Bible. "OH, that part isn't true", what is someone supposed to say to that? Yes it is. And that's it, convo over.

If you can accept the truthfulness of just this passage (there are so many others) we'd have something to build with. But you don't, and so we don't.

Jeremiah 31:31-37 KJV
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Did the sun rise this morning? Yes it did. Is Israel - the children of Jacob - a nation before God today? Yes it is. Will you acknowledge this?

Much love!

 

[Scott Downey]

Look what happens repeatedly any time we challenge them to address our arguments or to back up their pre-trib doctrine with scripture. They refuse to do it. They use the excuse that we wouldn't believe them even if they did, but the reality is that they have no scripture to back up their doctrine. That is why they don't even attempt to offer any kind of coherent arguments to back up their doctrine.

They really don't want to line up with the truth, such as 2 Thessalonians 1, that really shows them how messed up their doctrine is.
Some of them dispute Last Day and last days too., not willing to admit there is a 'Last Day', or they say 'Last Day' is after Christ returns, then another 1000 years is left before the 'Last Day'.
You cannot hold to the 'Last Day' being the return of Christ, the resurrection, the end of this world and the judgment and also hold to a 1000 year earthly reign on this first earth without it ending, such a thing does not fit their doctrines. The KJV uses 'end of the world'. After the end of the world, God creates for us a new earth.

They prefer their own teachers over scripture.

1. Matthew 13:39
   The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Matthew 13:40
   As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. Matthew 13:49
   So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
4. Matthew 24:3
   And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
5. Matthew 24:14
   And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

[Scott Downey]

There is no point pursuing these things with someone who does not recognize both Israel and the body of Christ for who and what they are. So long as you believe that National Israel has been cast out by God, there will be no agreement on a great number of things, including eschatology.

Anytime I've discussed such things with you, and a number of others, the response from you is that the many passages in Scripture that give ironclad promises that God will yet save and establish national Israel - the children of Jacob, your response is that they just are not true, and that is not valid when you are talking about God's Word.

So there is no discussion, or very limited, because denying the validity of the Bible is a conversation killer, when we are discussing the Bible. "OH, that part isn't true", what is someone supposed to say to that? Yes it is. And that's it, convo over.

If you can accept the truthfulness of just this passage (there are so many others) we'd have something to build with. But you don't, and so we don't.

Jeremiah 31:31-37 KJV
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Did the sun rise this morning? Yes it did. Is Israel - the children of Jacob - a nation before God today? Yes it is. Will you acknowledge this?

Much love!

others in your camp have claimed the 'new covenant' is only for the Jews, is that you also?

 

[Scott Downey]

Another confused doctrine of theirs is the restrainer being the Holy Spirit being taken away (2 Thess 2), so that when the Holy Spirit is withdrawn from the earth, the born of God people of God are raptured, sparing them great tribulations.

However, Christ says He is with us always, and will not leave us (His people) orphans. He will come to us, and dwell in us forever by the Holy Spirit.

And then this must be true,
Matthew 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

And even Revelation 14 shows us the saints on the earth till the time of the end of this world, as did Christ also say the same thing.

Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 14 - King James Version

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping...

www.biblegateway.com

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

 

[marks]

others in your camp have claimed the 'new covenant' is only for the Jews, is that you also?

Let's start with addressing my post if you actually wish to engage.

Much love!

 

[Scott Downey]

Matthew 13
47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You cannot have a pre trib rapture, and believe what Christ says here.
As the wicked are only separated from the just at the end of this world
There is no delay, the rapture separates the wicked from the just, we go to be with the Lord Jesus in the air, and they experience His flaming wrath in a furnace of fire, this fully agrees with Paul's teaching in 2 Thessalonians chapters 1, 2, 1 Thessalonians 4, 5, and more.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

 

[Scott Downey]

Let's start with addressing my post if you actually wish to engage.

Much love!

You must not have read Ephesians 2

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

 

[Scott Downey]

The above proves believing gentiles are members of the commonwealth of Israel!

Believe it or not proof, that there is no longer jew or gentile.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

No two peoples of God with two destinies

 

[marks]

Isaiah 11:10-12 KJV
10) And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12) And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Ezekiel 36:22-28 KJV
22) Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23) And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Ezekiel 39:25-29 KJV
25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Matthew 24:30-35 KJV
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32) Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33) So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

 

[marks]

You must not have read Ephesians 2

You are not off to a good start.

Do you refuse to engage with my post? Don't bother to reply.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Believe it or not proof, that there is no longer jew or gentile.

That's an incomplete statement. There most certainly are Jews and gentiles. The distinction is removed when each come to Christ to be baptized into Him.

In Christ, is neither Jew nor Greek.

Two things to clearly see:

One, In Christ, there aren't Jews. But only in Christ.

Two, it's only in Christ that the Jew ceases to be identified as Jewish. This shows us two groups of people descended from Jacob. One, those who are not reborn, and remain identified as Jews, and two, those who have been reborn, and are no longer identified as Jews.

Colossians 3:9-11 KJV
9) Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10) And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Galatians 3:27-29 KJV
27) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

So when we read in Ephesians 2, that of the two (Jews/Gentiles) God made one new man, this is not to say, of the two (Jews/Gentiles), God made them all Jews. That would directly contradict those passages which tell is that there aren't Jews in Christ. The distinction is removed, and we a single new man.

And what else do we see here? "then you are Abraham's seed." The apostle did not write that we are all now "Jacob's seed".

Much love!

 

[Scott Downey]

That's an incomplete statement. There most certainly are Jews and gentiles. The distinction is removed when each come to Christ to be baptized into Him.

In Christ, is neither Jew nor Greek.

Two things to clearly see:

One, In Christ, there aren't Jews. But only in Christ.

Two, it's only in Christ that the Jew ceases to be identified as Jewish. This shows us two groups of people descended from Jacob. One, those who are not reborn, and remain identified as Jews, and two, those who have been reborn, and are no longer identified as Jews.

Colossians 3:9-11 KJV
9) Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10) And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Galatians 3:27-29 KJV
27) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

So when we read in Ephesians 2, that of the two (Jews/Gentiles) God made one new man, this is not to say, of the two (Jews/Gentiles), God made them all Jews. That would directly contradict those passages which tell is that there aren't Jews in Christ. The distinction is removed, and we a single new man.

And what else do we see here? "then you are Abraham's seed." The apostle did not write that we are all now "Jacob's seed".

Much love!

None of your OT scriptures carry meaning regarding separate covenants today of 2 peoples of God. Paul describes the only 'covenants' that are relevant today, which is of the Spirit versus those of the flesh.

Which Paul explains symbolically, yet it is still true, today.

Galatians 4
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

The children of the bondwoman are children of slavery, to sin, they are not made free from Sin, and they will not inherit the kingdom of God

 

[Scott Downey]

Only the children of God will inherit the (new) earth, all the others, are of the flesh, and not of the Spirit.

God's plan is not to reign on this earth on an earthly throne of David, Daivid is dead and buried and His tomb was with the Jews.
David is with the Lord in Heaven, and reigns with Him there.
And that is where Jesus is and where He will remain and reign there until this here, in v20
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
14 But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15 and killed the [b]Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses. 16 And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

17 “Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send [c]Jesus Christ, who was [d]preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since [e]the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also [f]foretold these days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That restoration of ALL things is when God restores the earth and the heavens, and it won't be this first earth getting destroyed, according to Peter who spoke these words, the present earth is doomed to fiery destruction, will melt, and pass away when Christ returns, read 2 Peter 3.

Revelation 21
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.


Christ actually states what happens at His return when He comes.

v26, Christ warns us of false prophets who will come in His name.
v27 Christ sets the stage of His coming back
v28 there is mass death and destruction of people
v29 His coming ends the tribulation immediately, signs will appear in the heavens
v30 Then He will be seen coming in the clouds of Heaven
v31, Christ raptures the church, all His people are gathered from heaven and on earth to Him.

v33 we will know His return is close as the signs are in the heavens, and they are obvious to the church of God.
v35 Heaven and earth pass away
v37, all the wicked and unbelieving are killed at His return
v48 and onwards, evil servants will not be watching, they do evil things and end up with the hypocrites, cause that is who they are.

Matthew 24

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[marks]

None of your OT scriptures carry meaning regarding separate covenants today of 2 peoples of God. Paul describes the only 'covenants' that are relevant today, which is of the Spirit versus those of the flesh.

Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Did the sun rise this morning? Yes it did. Is Israel - the children of Jacob - a nation before God today? Yes it is. Will you acknowledge this?

If you don't believe this promise, on what basis do you believe any of God's promises?

Much love!

 

[Scott Downey]

Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Did the sun rise this morning? Yes it did. Is Israel - the children of Jacob - a nation before God today? Yes it is. Will you acknowledge this?

If you don't believe this promise, on what basis do you believe any of God's promises?

Much love!

The Seed of Israel is not the Jews though is it!
Through Isaac your seed shall be the called.

Paul explains this exactly and clearly, and Jesus explained to the Jews they were Not the people of God in John 8
Jesus specifically tells them that even though they are descendants of Abraham that means NOTHING to Him and the Father, as the truth is God is not their Father, even though they claimed Him as their Father, Jesus called them LIARS!

Abraham’s Seed and Satan’s​

37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have [n]seen with your father.”

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”


54 Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is [o]your God. 55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going[p] through the midst of them, and so passed by.

 

[Scott Downey]

Romans 9

New King James Version

​

Israel’s Rejection of Christ​

9 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my [a]countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

Israel’s Rejection and God’s Purpose​

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Paul laments the fate of the jews, as they are not of the Father and NOT of Israel.