Why I don't believe in a pretrib rapture

[Wick Stick]

And yet, Jesus framed the soul the same way in the story of the rich man and Lazarus.

I don't think He did. I went and looked at Luke 16, at the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, and I didn't find the word soul used there at all. Perhaps you can point out to me what you're thinking of?

 

[Scott Downey]

2 Thessalonians 2 is often referenced to refute a pre-trib rapture, but this passage does the opposite, it supports pre-trib rapture.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 KJV
1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

There is the gathering unto the Lord, and there is the day of Christ/day of the LORD (depending on your ms.). These are two different things.

If they were in fact the same thing, why would the people be troubled over some one saying "that day is now here"? Check the wording and grammar.

What Paul is saying here is, don't be troubled concerning our being gathered to Jesus because someone is telling you the day of the Lord is here. That day, the day of the Lord, won't come until these other things happen first.

Ergo:

These things haven't happened, so you can know the Day of the Lord is not here. So that being the case, don't be troubled concerning your being gathered to Jesus.

Ask yourself, if the rapture of the church and the Day of the Lord are the same thing, why would they be troubled at someone saying "the day of the Lord is here". The wording "is at hand" is from the Greek enestiken, which is the Perfect Tense for "has in stood", which is to say, "It's arrived, and is here." If they thought that these were the same thing, this would be understood as someone telling them, "It's Rapture Day!"

Don't be worried about being raptured to Jesus, just because someone is telling you "it's the Day of the LORD". Because it's not. The prerequisites haven't happened yet.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 KJV
1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Much love!

This is the same LAST DAY.
The gathering (rapture), resurrection, judgment are all on the same Day of Christ, which is the Day of the Lord.
Why would Paul write it this way? Because some had been preaching the resurrection was past.
Paul sought to tell people they had not missed the 'gathering to meet Him'
And for proof, Paul says before the gathering to meet Him(rapture), the wicked one, man of sin, must be revealed onto the world stage.
After that we can be gathered, and also after the Christ destroys him at His appearing, but not before that.
There is no rapture before 'antichrist' shows up. And since Christ destroy 'antichrist' at His appearing, and His appearing is when we are raptured, there is no pre trib rapture possible and you cannot find any such thing in scriptures.

The 'falling away' is not the rapture, falling away refers to departing from the faith, and is the end times apostasy.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 KJV
1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

All you pre trib rapture guys add in multiple gatherings of Christ's people to Himself, when the scripture only teaches of one gathering on the Day He returns.

 

[Scott Downey]

mp

Ok, The falling away comes first (the apostasy in the majority of churches today) It is already here. Note, the Rapture does not need any event to happen...There is no judgement in the Rapture. The revealing of the anti-christ can only happen after the "Restrainer is removed" Who is the restrainer????The Holy Spirit within each true believer around the world..It is the Christians, the true believers who fight the evil that will overwhelm the world in Daniel's 70th week. Imagine, the level of evil that was present when Hamas raided that Jewish town and murdered, raped and degraded those Jewish people. Now imagine this all over the world when the restraining is gone from the world...You will find this evil everywhere. Jesus tells us in Rev. 3: 10.."Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." The church of Philadephia was one of two churches in the 7 letters that Jesus specifically wrote to through John. This church represents the fate of the majority of the nation from the late 1800s, threw the 1970s. After this, the apostasy away from Jesus Christ has been growing until today, it is now the majority of the false faith in the USA, indeed the world. Rem, this level of evil will overwhelm most all with the exception of the "Elect". The wars and rumors of wars are running rampant in every section of the earth. Just a matter of time before the millions of true believers are "caught up" to the clouds to meet Jesus....Keep the faith. God's words do not lie. Blessings.

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of [b]sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the [d]mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [e]He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dare any deny that there are believers in Christ on the earth in Rev 14?
How then can the Holy Spirit be gone from the world? Because He dwells in His people.
Therefore, the restrainer is not the Holy Spirit taken out of the way of the devil.

And also pre trib rapturists divide the body of Christ. There are not 2 bodies of Christ.
Christ comes for His church one time, not multiple times.
All believers are baptized into His church by the Holy Spirit into one body of Christ, and are members of His church.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
People make this great leap beyond logic claiming the church is gone, and there is no more church on the earth, when obviously even in 2 Thess 2, Paul tells believers that they have not missed the gathering rapture, and sets conditions for the gathering of the church.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rev 14
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

12 Here is the [g]patience of the saints; here[h] are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying [i]to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

 

[Scott Downey]

Scriturally and spiritually the Body of Christ is not divided, not in destiny either. Christ comes for His church, on time, at the appointed time, a second time, not a 3rd time.

Ephesians 4
New King James Version

I, therefore, the prisoner [a]of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in [c]you all.

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

1 Corinthians 12

20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no [h]schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.

 

[Jericho]

I think the restrainer is Michael the Archangel.

Michale has in old and New Testament been a satanic restrainer.

I can't say definitively if he is or isn't the restrainer, although Michael's tradition role has been protector of Israel. Granted, I'm sure he has other roles.

 

[Jericho]

This is what a soul is:

The soul is a complex concept, broadly understood in philosophy and religion as the immaterial essence or spiritual part of a human being, distinct from the physical body and often considered to confer individuality, consciousness, thought, and will.


If you think that a person in a coma...
has the attributes of the person with a soul...
so be it.

People define "soul" and "spirit" in different ways and often use them interchangeably. I would define the soul as the emotions, thoughts, and consciousness of a person. The spirit is that spark of life, the intangible essence of a person that is immortal. They are part of the body and yet separate. People in a coma still have these things; they are just dormant. Although, as Mark said, some in a coma have reported being aware of their surroundings. A person in a coma does not turn into some soulless thing just because they are unconscious. By that reasoning, we lose our soul every time we fall asleep.

 

[Jericho]

I don't think He did. I went and looked at Luke 16, at the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, and I didn't find the word soul used there at all. Perhaps you can point out to me what you're thinking of?

How would you define "soul"?

 

[Scott Downey]

I can't say definitively if he is or isn't the restrainer, although Michael's tradition role has been protector of Israel. Granted, I'm sure he has other roles.

Sure is one of Michael's jobs is to rebuke Satan and confront Satan. We do read of his interactions with Satan, the dragon in old and new testaments.

 

[Wick Stick]

How would you define "soul"?

It's not the same in every book of the Bible. In Luke, it seems to refer to the mind, or state of mind.

But again, neither Luke nor Jesus uses the word soul when talking about Lazarus or the Rich Man. So I am not sure why you brought that story into the discussion?

 

[Jericho]

It's not the same in every book of the Bible. In Luke, it seems to refer to the mind, or state of mind.

But again, neither Luke nor Jesus uses the word soul when talking about Lazarus or the Rich Man. So I am not sure why you brought that story into the discussion?

You had said in a previous post:

Paul defines "soul" in his letters similarly to the Greek philosophers before him - Plato, Aristotle, etc.

David and Moses and Ezekiel don't use that definition. When they say "soul" they usually just mean "person" or "self."

We shouldn't take Paul's use of the word and read it backwards into things written a thousand years earlier. It leads to weird theology.

The assertion is that Paul got his ideas about the soul from the Greeks. Yet, Jesus expressed those same ideas about the soul in the story of the rich man and Lazarus. That is, the soul (the will, intellect, emotions, consciousness, etc.) exists beyond the physical form. Of course, Jesus didn't use the word "soul," but he did express the concept.

 

[Wick Stick]

The assertion is that Paul got his ideas about the soul from the Greeks. Yet, Jesus expressed those same ideas about the soul in the story of the rich man and Lazarus. That is, the soul (the will, intellect, emotions, consciousness, etc.) exists beyond the physical form. Of course, Jesus didn't use the word "soul," but he did express the concept.

Jesus talked about life after death, yes. But He didn't call the disembodied dead souls. That isn't in the chapter, as you yourself admit.

Also, even if He had, that isn't the way Paul uses the word soul. When Paul says soul, he's referring to man's lower nature, which is not the enduring part of the disembodied dead. For Paul, soul and spirit are opposites, and when people die, the soul perishes. For Paul, that's a good thing, as the soul is the part of us that leads us astray.

Also, the rest of the book of Luke calls the disembodied dead spirits, not souls (e.g. Luke 24:37-39).

You don't seem to have understood my post that you're trying to contradict. Or Paul. Or Luke. Or the Greek Philosophers. What is your source? I'm guessing something your pastor said years ago?

 

[GRACE ambassador]

when people die, the soul perishes. For Paul, that's a good thing, as the soul is the part of us that leads us astray.

Interesting precious friend, as Paul stated "absent from the body, Present With The LORD!"

How exactly is that perishing? - ie. more here:

'Confusion' of What is Death...

Be Encouraged and blessed.

Amen.

 

[marks]

For Paul, soul and spirit are opposites,

Could you give one or two examples of Paul writing this way?

I'm thinking that Paul opposed "spirit" against "flesh". But I'm interested in your examples.

Much love!

 

[Wick Stick]

Could you give one or two examples of Paul writing this way?

I'm thinking that Paul opposed "spirit" against "flesh". But I'm interested in your examples.

Much love!

You're right that Paul more often uses "flesh" or "carnal" in opposition to "spirit" and "spiritual." But he uses soul as a synonym. Examples...

It is perhaps not obvious here that natural is a derivation of the same Greek word usually translated soul, here:

1Cor 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Here's one the verses that started us down this path of discussion:

1Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

I should probably stop there, but I'll at least mention that it's embedded in the Greek language, which uses the science of its own day to understand the body in terms of hydraulics and pneumatics, rather than nerves and muscles and such.

So for instance, the word translated "wrath" in our Bibles, most literally means "swelling" and refers to the state where one's juices are stirred up. We have metaphors like "his blood boiled" based on this Hydraulic Metaphor of the Body. Paul's "better to marry than burn" taps into the idea.

ALL the references to "heart" in the New Testament understand the kardia (actually heart PLUS lungs) as being the place where our liquids (blood, bile, etc) and gases (spirit, soul, breath) come together.

Let's tie that back to the soul... A fundamental Biblical axiom is "the life is in the blood," but "the life" in that verse is again the same word elsewhere translated "soul." So then, soul is intimately connected with the lower nature of man - our "juices" which get inflamed and lead us into sin.

By way of comparison, Spirit implies none of that... inflammation.

 

[Wick Stick]

Interesting precious friend, as Paul stated "absent from the body, Present With The LORD!"

How exactly is that perishing? - ie. more here:

'Confusion' of What is Death...

Be Encouraged and blessed.

Amen.

The perishing is of the body, and with it the lower nature of man - those things that lead us into sin.

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

The spirit returns to God. Where it comes to Paul's writings, we should not call our spirits "souls," as Paul uses that word for something else, which is pretty much the opposite of spirit.

 

[marks]

You're right that Paul more often uses "flesh" or "carnal" in opposition to "spirit" and "spiritual." But he uses soul as a synonym. Examples...

It is perhaps not obvious here that natural is a derivation of the same Greek word usually translated soul, here:

1Cor 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Here's one the verses that started us down this path of discussion:

1Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

I should probably stop there, but I'll at least mention that it's embedded in the Greek language, which uses the science of its own day to understand the body in terms of hydraulics and pneumatics, rather than nerves and muscles and such.

So for instance, the word translated "wrath" in our Bibles, most literally means "swelling" and refers to the state where one's juices are stirred up. We have metaphors like "his blood boiled" based on this Hydraulic Metaphor of the Body. Paul's "better to marry than burn" taps into the idea.

ALL the references to "heart" in the New Testament understand the kardia (actually heart PLUS lungs) as being the place where our liquids (blood, bile, etc) and gases (spirit, soul, breath) come together.

Let's tie that back to the soul... A fundamental Biblical axiom is "the life is in the blood," but "the life" in that verse is again the same word elsewhere translated "soul." So then, soul is intimately connected with the lower nature of man - our "juices" which get inflamed and lead us into sin.

By way of comparison, Spirit implies none of that... inflammation.

Thank you!

Much love!

 

[marks]

The perishing is of the body, and with it the lower nature of man - those things that lead us into sin.

How does "the renewing of the mind" fit into this in your thinking? What is the "mind" that is being renewed? Spirit? Soul? Something else?

Much love!

 

[Wick Stick]

How does "the renewing of the mind" fit into this in your thinking? What is the "mind" that is being renewed? Spirit? Soul? Something else?

Much love!

It seems that it is the spirit that is renewed:

Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

edit: That doesn't make spirit and mind synonyms. I think Paul understands spirit as one part of mind, not the totality of it.

 

[marks]

It seems that it is the spirit that is renewed:

Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

edit: That doesn't make spirit and mind synonyms. I think Paul understands spirit as one part of mind, not the totality of it.

OK. I understand our spirit to be the new creation creature, the part of us that lives with Jesus in the celestial realm, while also inhabiting our bodies. So that we are linked to God by our spirit to His Spirit, who gives life to our spirit. That being so, our spirit is as Paul wrote, with the inner man I serve God, and, created pattered after God in righteousness and true holiness. So that the renewing of the mind, be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, here, in the spirit of your mind, this refers to the process of aligning our soul with our spirit.

That sounds convoluted, do you know what I'm saying?

Much love!

 

[Wick Stick]

OK. I understand our spirit to be the new creation creature, the part of us that lives with Jesus in the celestial realm, while also inhabiting our bodies. So that we are linked to God by our spirit to His Spirit, who gives life to our spirit. That being so, our spirit is as Paul wrote, with the inner man I serve God, and, created pattered after God in righteousness and true holiness. So that the renewing of the mind, be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, here, in the spirit of your mind, this refers to the process of aligning our soul with our spirit.

That sounds convoluted, do you know what I'm saying?

Much love!

I got about 50%... the second half was understandable.

The first half seems to say that we are in two places at once, which I found confusing.