70th Week and Day of the Lord are separate events.

[SteveSmid]

I think you're doing pretty good in considering all this Steve. You got yourself into a unique ball park. With everything else going on, I missed your note when it first came out.

Dr. Christian is correct that there are two sets of 490 years, two separate sets of 70 weeks. But he is late to this understanding by about 2 years. The second decree to restore Jerusalem was in 1535, not 1536 or 1537. I do find it interesting that those timelines originated in the time of the Julian Calendar.

But 1535 means the things are happening now, not a couple years from now. For example, the 5 months of Revelation 9, the fifth trumpet, started and was completed in the first 6 months of 2022. That means we're much closer to the actual second coming, than most are able to confront.

The two sets of 70 weeks was first noticed by Isaac Newton in his Daniel 9 commentary back in the 1700's. He suggested the reason why the 62 weeks, and the 7 weeks were split up as two timeframes, was because they also can be used to point to the second coming of Christ. Because they are already split up as separate times, the two timeframes can be reversed, or used individually for various different decrees. There appears to be a detail, a reason why the two are reversed in our end times. Newton called it the "compass of a Jubilee". 1535 is the correct one because it is verified by a more modern decree made by Levi Eshkol in 1969. 1535 + 434 years, or 62 weeks = 1969.

Spoiler: The Walls of Jerusalem

The Walls of Jerusalem (Hebrew: חומות ירושלים, Arabic: أسوار القدس) surround the Old City of Jerusalem (approx. 1 km2). In 1535, when Jerusalem was part of the Ottoman Empire, Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent ordered the ruined city walls to be rebuilt.

Walls of Jerusalem - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The stone plaques Widener uses are erroneous. Another guy on Fivedoves made the same mistake by using the plaques found on the sabils around the Old City of Jerusalem which all said 1536. It's not the work to rebuild Jerusalem, or the completion of the job, it's the going forth of the command itself that begins the countdown.

It means it's happening now. It has to be happening now.

These walls were built from a command that came from Sultan Sulieman in 1535:

The cries from these stones are reaching their crescendo now. It has to be happening now.

Thanks for your comment. I've read Newton's book and must have missed his point. My system has these dates: the plaques on the mount are dated 1537, the pandemic arrived 2020, the Abraham accords were signed in 2020, and 10/7/23 was the Abomination. 1535 blows up my system--don't know what to say. But we agree prophesy is occurring in front of our eyes. Remember how the Pharisees did not recognize the Messiah because they wanted Superman, not Jesus. This time around, we are watching for headlines in the news we cannot miss, but events are more subtle. The sky is not on fire. Birth pangs start slowly and build in frequency and intensity. My system has a date to watch for: 4/19/27. Scripture does not say we cannot predict when the antichrist will appear, and Paul says it is necessary for us to identify him before rapture. I'm not trying to stir up trouble with you, but my system only works with certain dates. And I may be all wrong.

 

[SteveSmid]

True. And that included the 70th week.

The final week in the first go around was from 27 A.D. to 33 A.D. The Crucifixion is widely agreed upon happening in 33 A.D. He will make a second trip, so there can be a second 70 Weeks, one for Messiah, one for prince to come. One little coma in Daniel 9:25 and this would be a thing.

 

[SteveSmid]

I guess it does but so does building systems which oppose the purposes of God.
Patting yourself on the back because of all the hard work you've put in is just another 'look at my good works' trip.
The paradigm you are locked onto misses the mark and does not allow you to see the core principle from which the prophecies are based on....subsequently your inventions.

Why can't both be correct. God can write scriptures that describe a narrative and teach core principles. The story of Joseph and his brothers was a good story, but it was ultimately foretelling the life of Christ. A narrative is a blessing. God is telling us ahead of time so we won't freak out. Call me a man of little faith if you want, but I appreciate knowing ahead of time. In the flesh, I'm a weeny.

 

[SteveSmid]

My post was about the whole text in Daniel ch. 9.

When this chapter is read simply, without drowning in ambiguous details and useless speculations, it says that 490 years is left for the nation of Israel and the city, then the Messiah will come and then the end will come, the destruction of the temple and of the city.

All happened in the 1st century and Jesus referred to this chapter, when He was warning His disciples to flee when they will see the Roman legions preparing around Jerusalem.

Since 70 AD, everything is fulfilled and the kingdom of God is growing and transforming the world and nations.

Please don't limit scripture to one meaning. You can be symbolically correct, and an end times narrative can still be correct. "Already but not yet." God has a way of providing examples ahead of time. Look at Joseph.

 

[SteveSmid]

Daniel declared, "Seventy weeks are determined".

That includes all seventy weeks.

It includes the seventieth week.

But you claim that your seventieth week "is STILL yet to be fulfilled".

Therefore, your seventieth week is decapitated, orphaned, and completely undetermined.

It is a complete contradiction of Daniel's declaration.

Whom to believe?

1. You
2. Daniel

Need a hint?

Christ is the Divine Covenant Confirmer of Daniel 9:27. Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:23-26

He cannot be contorted into antichrist.

So stop trying.

"Seventy weeks are determined." I missed that. Nice. For years, I accepted the "orphaned" week theory. God's trick is for it to not really matter. Even if you think this is the leftover week from the last time and not the last week of the second time, we are still on the same page.

 

[SteveSmid]

What is with you and your obsession over these so-called '15 end-time periods'? You are making the same mistake many do before you - - forcing everything into literal time frames within 7 years as you believe is Daniel's final week. That’s completely biblically wrong. Prophecy is not bound by your calendar; it’s spiritual truth revealed in symbolic language that has everything to do with New Testament congregation (hope you recognize it as the church). Trying to squeeze God’s redemptive plan into your literal timeline between nation Israel and your vision of evil beast king shows a lack of spiritual discernment."

Hate to interrupt. But once again, there is no requirement for the 70th Week and the Day of the Lord to coincide or even overlap. Lose this and things work out--as a narrative.

 

[SteveSmid]

160AD Clement of Alexandria (On Daniel 9:24-27 ; The 'Seventy Weeks' of Daniel)

From the captivity at Babylon, which took place in the time of Jeremiah the prophet, was fulfilled what was spoken by Daniel the prophet as follows: "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people, and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to seal sins, and to wipe out and make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal the vision and the prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies."

Clement was not a Jew.
Clement was not an SDA.


200AD Hippolytus of Rome (70 weeks)

That transgressions, therefore, are blotted out, and that reconciliation is made for sins, is shown by this. But who are they who have reconciliation made for their sins, but they who believe on His name, and propitiate His countenance by good works? And that after the return of the people from Babylon there was a space of 434 years until the time of the birth of Christ, may be easily understood. For, since the first covenant was given to the children of Israel after a period of 434 years, it follows that the second covenant also should be defined by the same space of time, in order that it might be expected by the people and easily recognised by the faithful. 17. And for this reason Gabriel says: "And to anoint the Most Holy." And the Most Holy is none else but the Son of God alone, who, when He came and manifested Himself, said to them, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because He has anointed me;" and so forth.

Hippolytus was not a Jew.
Hippolytus was not an SDA.


Keep your nuggets of nonsense coming. Entertainment always welcome.

I'm new here. What does the actual end look like? The patriarchs believed the transgression would end after 6000 years. Polycarp for one.

 

[SteveSmid]

It was not given to people like you because they have a carnal mind, interpreting God’s Word through the lens of literal time periods to defend a false 7-year doctrine. Many claim to love God, yet few are granted spiritual understanding to discern His mysteries. Your interpretation is wrong, plainly because it springs from a fleshly mind and is deeply corrupted by the errors of premillennial teaching - - a doctrine that blinds rather than enlightens.

I'm afraid your spiritual mind is one that cannot be argued with--if your ideas come from God, then we better stay quiet. Paul gives the answer--if scripture had been plain about the Gospel, Christ would not have been crucified. Same with the Second Advent--no scripture nails it down, or the adversary wouldn't play ball. All the viewpoints have a missing anchor point. I have a feeling that we are all right in different ways. Regardless, having a narrative allows us to explain to the frighted non believers what is going on and therefore having an icebreaker to explain the Gospel.

 

[SteveSmid]

Wrong — completely wrong.

Nowhere in Scripture does God promise a second chance of salvation for the Jews or for national Israel after the Church’s great commission is complete. The plan of salvation has always been one, through Christ alone — for both Jew and Gentile alike (Romans 1:16; Galatians 3:28).

Paul made it clear that ‘there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon Him’ (Romans 10:12). The idea that God has a separate, future plan of salvation for Israel outside the Church is pure dispensational error — it denies the unity of God’s covenant people.

The ‘70th week’ of Daniel was fulfilled in Christ, who confirmed the covenant with many by His death and resurrection (Daniel 9:27; Matthew 26:28; Hebrews 9:15). To say this week is still future is to reject the finished work of Christ and the full revelation of the gospel.

The unbelief of Israel today is not because they are waiting for another dispensation — it is because, as Scripture says, ‘blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in’ (Romans 11:25). When that fullness is complete, it is not a new offer of salvation, but the completion of the one plan of redemption already set forth in Christ (Ephesians 1:10).

So stop dividing what God has already made one body (Ephesians 2:14–16). Your view is not biblical prophecy — it’s dispensational fantasy, even if you deny that you are a dispensationalist yourself."

Do you believe the current state of Israel is an historical anomaly?

 

[SteveSmid]

No, it doesn't.

2852 [e]
neḥ·taḵ
נֶחְתַּ֥ךְ
are determined
V‑Nifal‑Perf‑3ms

"(properly) to cut off, i.e. (figuratively) to decree"

It means that they are "cut off", forming a unit comprised of all 70.

Not your 69 with a decapitated orphaned undetermined 70th.

I believe Daniel when he said "Seventy".

You should too.

Clearly, scripture is vague to keep the dark side guessing. The Pharisees were so off on their assumptions, the killed the messiah, saying he was possessed by demons. We don't have the full script this time either. Keep an open mind.

 

[SteveSmid]

Would you mind answering the question please?

I depend on the research of Christain Widener. His dates place the Crucifixion as year 490 from the Declaration.

 

[SteveSmid]

Huh?

So according to you, the Kingdom of God just magically appears halfway through your imaginary 7-year timeline in the future? And that’s when salvation finally shows up—for the nation of Israel in the Middle East? Seriously? Right when your “beast king” start ruling their Jewish temple? And when your two literal men as two witnesses will be killed?!

So I guess the cross meant nothing, and Christ still hasn’t received His Kingdom yet? And the church went forth preaching Gospel without a kingdom represenation?!

Wow. That’s not just bad theology—that’s a full-blown train wreck of doctrine. You’ve twisted Scripture so hard it’s unrecognizable.

Happens in the Day of the Lord week in my system. Antichrist reign 42 months through the Trumpets, and then the Bowls. Michael stands back to let it happen. 2/3 of Israel taken out. Remnant call to Jesus. Please allow for your symbolic take and for an end time narrative. Both can be true.

 

[SteveSmid]

Don't be deceived brethren, covenantee is only quoting the Daniel 9:24 verse in italics as written. That is NOT a direct quote by Clement.

Here is the gist of the matter involving 'certain' of the early Church fathers like Barnabas, Clement, and Origen, Tertullian, and those who believed at the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem, the final 70th week of the Daniel 9:24 prophecy was completed. They all believed that.

And NOTE that I said they believed the 70th week was COMPLETED IN 70 A.D.

Did Jesus live to 70 A.D. when the 2nd temple and Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman army? NOPE!

So HOW could that 70 A.D. event have been part of Christ's Ministry?? It wasn't, and those early Church fathers never said the 70th week was part of Christ's Ministry!!!


Here is what Barnabus said about the 70th week:

“For it is written, ‘And it shall come to pass, when the week is completed, the temple of God shall be built. . . in the name of the Lord.’ I find. . . that a temple does exist. Having received the forgiveness of sin. . . in our habitation God dwells in us. . . This is the spiritual temple built for the Lord.” (Epistle of Barnabas, 16:6)​

Clement of Alexandria likewise believed that the events of Christ's Olivet discourse were fulfilled with the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the Jew's temple. That represented to him the dawn of the early Church as the spiritual temple idea. He never said that took place during Christ's Ministry.

Same thing with Origen of Alexandria (who was excommunicated by the way because of his creating allegories out of literal Biblical events. Clement did much of the same with creating allegories out of literally meant Bible Scripture, so those two really are not totally reliable as Biblical interpreters, having been influenced by the paganism surrounding the Alexandria, Egypt school in their day.) Origen also believed that 70 A.D. marked the end of the Jewish Age and the fulfillment of the 70 weeks prophecy.

Tertullian, same thing:
He believed the 70th week of Daniel was fulfilled in 70 A.D. (Note: Vespasian was emperor of Rome from 69-79 A.D., not... during Christ's Ministry).

“Vespasian vanquished the Jews. . . and so by the date of his storming Jerusalem, the Jews had completed the seventy weeks foretold by Daniel” (AAJ, VII; CID).​

What about Hippolytus and Irenaeus?

covenantee must be getting his information about Hippolytus from a website that wrongly believes Jesus fulfilled the 70th week, because Hippolytus DID NOT BELIEVE THAT. As a matter of fact, Hippolytus and Irenaeus were the ONLY early Church fathers that still believed in a yet unfulfilled final 70th week of the Daniel 9:24 prophecy.

Thus the PREVAILING VIEW of the HISTORY OF CHRIST'S CHURCH is that the 70th "one week" of Daniel 9:27 was fulfilled in 70 A.D., NOT by Jesus back during His Ministry.

Daniel had to seal up his message for the end times. Should make sense now, not in 70 A.D. Is the current state of Israel an historical anomaly? Plus, there can be more than one fulfillment of prophesy. God leaves historical examples.

 

[quietthinker]

Why can't both be correct. God can write scriptures that describe a narrative and teach core principles. The story of Joseph and his brothers was a good story, but it was ultimately foretelling the life of Christ. A narrative is a blessing. God is telling us ahead of time so we won't freak out. Call me a man of little faith if you want, but I appreciate knowing ahead of time. In the flesh, I'm a weeny.

When the paradigm is faulty everything is interpreted skewed; that's a given. It matters not how many layers there are.
It is essential to understand that Jesus is The Core and all scripture interpreted without him, is off.
Now that is easier said than done because mouthing this does not necessarily equate with believing and applying this.

 

[SteveSmid]

OK, time for a FINAL confrontation against doctrines pushed by the devil's children upon the DECEIVED!

Here are the events the deceived... are saying Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled during His Ministry...

Dan 9:27
27 The ruler will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. And as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the fate decreed for this defiler is finally poured out on him."
Holy Bible, New Living Translation ®, copyright © 1996, 2004 by Tyndale Charitable Trust. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers. All rights reserved.

The Living Translation Bible makes it that simple to understand the one who presents that treaty (covenant) for 7 years is also the one who will place the "abomination of desolation" IDOL in the Jewish stone temple which Lord Jesus warned of in Matthew 24:15-26.

Those who push the LIE that Lord Jesus is Who fulfilled that above Daniel 9:27 verse during His Ministry are actually CLAIMING Jesus setup that IDOL ABOMINATION IN THE JEW'S TEMPLE DURING HIS MINISTRY!

We know per history that the Romans failed to setup the "abomination of desolation." Per the Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.), the 2nd Jewish temple the Romans tried to seize in 70 A.D. burned down from a fire that started inside the temple. The Romans never got a chance to capture the temple. That means NO "abomination of desolation" IDOL event in the temple happened in 70 A.D.

We also know per history, that in 165-170 B.C. Antiochus Epiphanes conquered Jerusalem with an army, ended the Jew's daily sacrifices, went into the 2nd temple and sacrificed swine upon the altar, and spread its broth around inside that temple, spiritually desolating the temple. Then Antiochus setup an altar and IDOL for Zeus worship, and demanded that all bow to that IDOL abomination. Thus Antiochus served as a TYPE for the FINAL ANTICHRIST that is to setup the "abomination of desolation" IDOL that Lord Jesus prophesied of for the END of this world, per Matthew 24 and Mark 13. HOWEVER... Jesus gave His prophecy about the "abomination of desolation" being setup in a Jerusalem temple per the Book of Daniel about 200 years after... Antiochus had been dead! That means friends, that "abomination of desolation" prophecy from Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 11 has never been fulfilled to this day.

1290 days after 10/7/23 is 4/19/27. Mark your calendar's people.

 

[SteveSmid]

Enough of your nonsense already. You blatantly twist the text by making a prophecy about Christ into a prophecy about an imaginary Antichrist instead and you twist the text by making a covenant into a treaty. It's a complete joke. Here is the truth about the 70 weeks, which can be discerned by looking at the fulfillment of Daniel 9:24.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Here is my understanding of the fulfillment of each of the six things listed in Daniel 9:24. I will list the scriptures that I believe refer to the fulfillment of each of them.

1. To Finish Transgression

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Hebrews 9:15 That is why he is the one who mediates the new covenant between God and people, so that all who are invited can receive the eternal inheritance God has promised them. For Christ died to set them free from the penalty of the sins they had committed under that first covenant.

John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace".

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

2. To Make an End to Sins

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

1 John 3:5 And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not.

2 Cor 5:21 For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

3. To Make Reconciliation for Iniquity

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven

4. To Bring In Everlasting Righteousness

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

5. To Seal Up the Vision and Prophecy

Luke 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Matt 26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.

6. To Anoint The Most Holy

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Acts 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed.

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel.

Only Jesus could fulfill those things. Without His death and resurrection, none of those things could be fulfilled. So, if your interpretation of the 70 week prophecy does not have Him being cut off (crucified) within the 70th week, it is a false doctrine as His death is crucial to fulfilling the prophecy. He was to be cut off after the end of the 69th week (Daniel 9:26) and that placed the timing of His death within the 70th week. He confirmed the new covenant with many during the 70th week and made the old covenant sacrifices and offerings obsolete by way of His once for all sacrifice.

I need to ask you as well. Is the current state of Israel an historical anomaly? Cannot you and those who believe in a future narrative both be correct? Please don't limit scripture.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Do you believe the current state of Israel is an historical anomaly?

Nope!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I need to ask you as well. Is the current state of Israel an historical anomaly?

What do you mean exactly? Be as specific as possible so that I don't have to guess as to what you are asking and why.

Cannot you and those who believe in a future narrative both be correct? Please don't limit scripture.

How can that be exactly? Please stop being so vague and be specific about what you are talking about.

 

[covenantee]

Clearly, scripture is vague to keep the dark side guessing. The Pharisees were so off on their assumptions, the killed the messiah, saying he was possessed by demons. We don't have the full script this time either. Keep an open mind.

"Determined" is not a vague word, and no side can defend guessing.

 

[covenantee]

I'm new here. What does the actual end look like? The patriarchs believed the transgression would end after 6000 years. Polycarp for one.

Welcome, Steve. The actual end of what?