This is the Torah of the Sin Offering

[dak]

Paul both teaches and serves the torah-instruction of the sin offering, but first we must understand from where his teaching is derived: he states that he teaches the commandments of the Master, (1Cor 14:37), and in this case we find the likely answer in the following passage quoted below. However, in the Mark passage below, the Master appears to be teaching concerning the trespass offering, yet the sin offering and the trespass offering are of one torah-instruction, (see Lev 7:7).

Mark 9:43-50
43 And if your hand entices you to sin, cut it off: it is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands, to depart into Gehenna, into the unquenchable fire, 44 where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off: it is better for you to enter into life lame, than having two feet to be cast into Gehenna, into the unquenchable fire, 46 where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
47 And if your eye entices you to sin, eject it: it is better for you to enter into the Kingdom of Elohim single-eyed, than having two eyes, to be cast into the fire of Gehenna, 48 where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
49 For everyone shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. [Lev 2:13]
50 Salt is good, but if the salt has lost its saltiness, with what will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another.

Leviticus 2:13 is the only place in the Torah where the command to salt every sacrifice is given.
There is no other place we find this commandment to salt every offering or sacrifice.

Leviticus 2:13
13 And every offering of your minhah-flour offering you shall season with salt: neither shall you allow the salt of the covenant of your Elohim to be lacking from your minchah-flour offering: with all your offerings you shall offer salt. [Mrk 9:49]

Mark 9:49
49 For everyone shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. [Lev 2:13]

The Master expounds the sacrifices in this passage beginning with the commandment to offer salt with every sacrificial offering or sacrifice: but he teaches not according to what the natural mind of the natural man perceives to be literal-physical animal sacrifices, for the Mark text is plain as day what he is teaching about, that is, cutting off sin from your members in a manner of speech which is almost to the point of apocalyptic, so that the hearer and reader may know that he speaks of supernal and spiritual things, and not of physical and natural things of below. Moreover at the same time he also quotes a well known statement from Yeshayah the Prophet, at the very end of that book, and the LXX version of the passage confirms precisely what he is speaking about in the Mark 9 passage.

Isaiah 66:24 OG LXX
24 και εξελευσονται και οψονται τα κωλα των ανθρωπων των παραβεβηκοτων εν εμοι ο γαρ σκωληξ αυτων ου τελευτησει και το πυρ αυτων ου σβεσθησεται και εσονται εις ορασιν παση σαρκι

κωλα = κωλον = a limb of the body, as if chopped or lopped off (re: Mark 9:43-50).

Mickelson's
G2966 κῶλον kolon (kō'-lon) n.
a limb of the body (as if lopped).
[from the base of G2849]

The Master therefore interprets for us this passage from the Prophet by referring the hearer to the commandment to salt every sacrifice in Lev 2:13, proving that he teaches a spiritual and supernal application to the sacrifices. And what therefore does that also tell us? In his Testimony he is indeed renewing the covenant, not overturning it or planning for it to be set aside or any part of it to be abolished. It is indeed therefore a renewed covenant because his Testimony has restored the covenant and all its instructions and teachings to their original meanings and intent as they were originally given, but obviously the record cannot go over every instance of every statute, ordinance, command, and saying in the Living Oracles of Elohim: we therefore must understand the principles which are given and taught as examples, and from there know how to understand what has not been addressed. There is one very simple little fact that when people ignore it they stumble, and that fact is that the Torah is spiritual according to Paul in Rom 7:14a, and to ignore this fact can be catastrophic to doctrine, and is one of the principle reasons why people, preachers, and teachers can end up misunderstanding the writings of Paul.

Moreover the trespass offering, (H817 אָשָׁם 'asham), is called πλημμελεια in the Greek LXX. This is a compound word, (πλημη+μελος, πλημμέλ-εια , ἡ, prop.), and πλημη is a flood-tide, meaning something like when a high tide comes in on an ocean beach, or when a river overflows its banks like the river Yordan in the spring time: μελος is of course a member, yes, that's right, like an interconnected member or limb of the body, used often in the scripture. Thus we have in this very word the imagery of a member of the body going beyond the set boundaries of the Torah, like how a river overflows its banks, trespassing its normal boundaries set by the banks of the river. The trespass offering, by its very name, confirms what is taught in the Mark 9 passage quoted above concerning the trespassing members of the body, which are also likened to the members of our individual households, for not only is there the greater body-temple congregation of Meshiah but each of us is also likened to a house with our household members, (whom we are also admonished by Paul to mortify, put to death, or put to sleep). This is a critical key to understanding many things taught in both the Gospel accounts and the Epistles of Paul.

We find the same imagery in the parting of Yam Suph, (Sea of Reeds or Red Sea), wherein the sea became a wall of water on the right and on the left, so that bnei Yisrael might pass through the sea on dry ground. In the song of Mosheh this passage through the sea is to pass through into the Sanctuary, (Exo 15:17, and thus Yam Suph may also be understood as Yam Soph, the "Sea of the End", prophetically speaking), for the Torah is our paidagogos or schoolmaster and child-trainer into-unto Meshiah, as Paul says, (Gal 3:24). Thus the Torah is likened to both a crosswalk and a crossing guard to bring us safely through dangerous areas and times unto the point aimed at, the Telos, that is, the Son, ("I am the Arche and the Telos", Rev 22:13), the true Logos reasoning-understanding of the Word of the Father.

Without the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, we cannot understand the Briyth Hadashah, (Renewed Covenant). Herein we have an initial-superficial understanding of the deeper meaning of the trespass offering. There is an entire background teaching on the subject of bodily members running through the Gospel accounts, related to the Mark passage quoted above, which begins with the companion passage in Matthew 5:27-30, wherein the word for a bodily member, (μελος), is twice mentioned in the exact context as found in Mark 9:42-50. Moreover there are multiple companion passages which contain several key statements that provide links to the other companion passages, showing that they are all speaking of the same subject matter, and the matter is deep, profound, and inward.

However at this point it is necessary to move forward in order to continue with the basics of the thread topic and title, and to do so we therefore need to continue on to Paul's discourse on bodily members, but to get there, more initial information is necessary before proceeding. It is not that the companion passages cannot be discussed here in this thread, hopefully it may come to that, Elohim willing, but for now it is necessary to complete the foundational understandings which have been laid for these things. Paul surely lays out some of it, but he does not venture upon the foundation which Meshiah has laid for us in Mark 9:42-50 and its companion passages, for instead of a discourse on the trespass offering, Paul expounds concerning the sin offering and builds upon the foundation first laid by Meshiah, (as he also implies he has done in 1Cor 3:10-11), and that is perfectly acceptable because, as YHWH says in the Torah, the trespass offering and the sin offering are one torah, (instruction, teaching).

 

[dak]

H2403 חַטָּאָה chatta'ah and G266 ἀμαρτία hamartia.

2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

2 Corinthians 5:21 ASV
21 Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.

Has the Meshiah been made to be sin for us? Do we trade places with him? Did he become sin so that we might become the righteousness of Elohim? Does this not sound just a little too much like the goat sent away for Azazel with all the sins of the congregation placed upon its (mortally wounded) head? Doesn't Paul say in another place that he speaks to those who know the Torah? Do modern translators and scholarship know the Torah all that well? (I do not mean linguistics but reasoning). If indeed they knew the Torah, and had studied the Septuagint, so as to compare the most ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures, would the above renderings be rendered as they are?

Does the sin offering become sin? Absolutely not: the sin offering is most holy, and the Kohanim are commanded to consume it. The sin offering therefore cannot "become sin" because that would mean that the Most High commanded His Kohanim to consume sin, and because of the discourse in Jhn 6:26-71 the renderings of 2Cor 5:21 quoted above are on shaky ground at best, and likely rather quite heretical. However there are some translators that do render hamartia as a sin offering. I am quoting the following translator for this passage because a commentary is given for their reasoning behind the rendering, and I will post a link to the commentary after the text, which I hope will be helpful in showing that this is not just some new idea of my own but attested by others more knowledgeable than myself, (and the understanding is surely already attested in the LXX-Septuagint).

2 Corinthians 5:21 REV
21 He made him who did not know sin to be a sin offering on our behalf, so that in union with him we would become the righteousness of God.

If you click on the verse itself, which is of course at the end of the chapter at the bottom of the page link below, you will be taken to their lengthy commentary on 2Cor 5:21.

2 Corinthians 5, REV Bible and Commentary

2 Corinthians 5 REV - He made him who did not know sin to be a sin offering on our behalf, so that in union with - Bible verse

www.revisedenglishversion.com

In other instances some translators also use this rendering of hamartia, (a sin-offering), but they are few:

YLT (Young's Literal Translation) - hamartia: Heb 9:10, Heb 10:6, Heb 10:8.
LSV (Literal Standard Version) - hamartia: Heb 9:10, Heb 10:6, Heb 10:8.
HRB2012 - hamartia: Heb 10:6
ABP (Apostolic Bible Polyglot (in italics)) - hamartia Heb 5:1, (plural, hamartiown), Heb 10:8.

G266 hamartia is not just sin in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Torah: it is employed in the same manner as the Hebrew word H2403 chatta'ah, which can be either sin, the penalty for sin, or the offering for sin, hence, a sin offering all in one word. What we therefore have is a situation where the Greek Classics are just not enough because the LXX is essentially taking Greek words and assigning Hebrew meanings to them in order to render the Hebrew text into the Greek language. The Greek word hamartia in this case, (as well as many other cases if not all), is nothing more than a Greek loan word for the Hebrew word chatta'ah, carrying all the same meanings of the Hebrew equivalent into the Greek. The following LXX-Septuagint text is one example out of many where G266 hamatria is employed in the exact same manner as the Hebrew word H2403 chatta'ah:

Exodus 29:36 OG LXX
[36] και το μοσχαριον της αμαρτιας ποιησεις τη ημερα του καθαρισμου και καθαριεις το θυσιαστηριον εν τω αγιαζειν σε επ αυτω και χρισεις αυτο ωστε αγιασαι αυτο
[36] And the calf of the sin offering you shall offer for a day, (daily) for an atonement (purification), and you shall purify the altar in your consecrating upon it, and you shall anoint it, so as to sanctify it.

Here we see that G4160 ποιέω, (poieo), is rendered as to offer, and the form is ποιησεις, you shall offer, so by the context herein it is meant in the sense of doing or performing an action or task, (offering a sacrifice), rather than making something.

και το μοσχαριον της αμαρτιας ποιησεις
And the calf of the sin offering you shall offer...
And you shall offer the calf of the sin offering...

In this example αμαρτια is not the sin, but the sin offering, and such examples abound throughout the Torah in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew text. Could it be that Paul is using hamartia in this same manner in 2 Cor 5:21? Could it be that by the second occurrence of hamartia in that verse he means a sin offering instead of sin, as is so often found in the Septuagint version of the Torah? Likewise we also find G4160 ποιέω adjacent to G266 αμαρτια in this passage.

2 Corinthians 5:21 T/R / BYZ
[21] τον γαρ μη γνοντα αμαρτιαν υπερ ημων αμαρτιαν εποιησεν ινα ημεις γινωμεθα δικαιοσυνη θεου εν αυτω

2 Corinthians 5:21
[21] For the one not knowing sin offered a sin-offering on our behalf, so that in him we might come to be of a godly (or divine) righteousness.

Yes, it could very well be a sin offering instead of sin in the second occurrence of hamartia which is adjacent to poieo, and in the above statement this is surely the preferable choice. We can of course discuss my reading of the end of the statement, (so that in him we might come to be of a godly (or divine) righteousness), but it will be a lengthy post, so I am forced to exclude it herein.

So then, is it therefore possible that Paul also does the same in other instances in his epistles?
Yes, it is possible, and he does.

Leviticus 6:25 OG LXX
25 (6:18) λαλησον ααρων και τοις υιοις αυτου λεγων ουτος ο νομος της αμαρτιας εν τοπω ου σφαζουσιν το ολοκαυτωμα σφαξουσιν τα περι της αμαρτιας εναντι κυριου αγια αγιων εστιν

Leviticus 6:25 OG LXX
25 Speak to Ahron and to his sons, saying, This is the nomos [torah] of the sin offering: in the place where they slay the whole-fire-offering [Hebrew text: ascending offering] they shall slay that concerning the sin offering before YHWH: it is most holy.

ουτος ο νομος της αμαρτιας
this is the nomos-torah of the sin offering

Thus we see that, indeed, hamartia may be employed for not only sin, but also for a sin offering in the Epistles of Paul: and he does indeed employ this meaning in more places than just 2Cor 5:21, and the most blatantly evident place may be found in his lengthy discourse on the bodily members.

 

[dak]

ΟΥΤΟϹ Ο ΝΟΜΟϹ ΤΗϹ ΑΜΑΡΤΙΑϹ
THIS IS THE NOMOS-TORAH-INSTRUCTION OF THE SIN OFFERING​

Romans 6:1-7 — Tentative Reading
[01] What therefore shall we say? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? [02] Let it never be! How shall we who have died for sin yet live in it? [03] Or are you unaware that as many as have been immersed into Meshiah Ι̅Η were immersed into his death? [04] We therefore were buried with him through immersion into death, that just as Meshiah was raised from the dead, by way of the glory of the Father, in this manner we also should walk in newness of life: [05] for if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, so shall we also be in the resurrection, [06] knowing this, that our old man was crucified together, that the body of sin might be done away, so that we should no more be enslaved to sin: [07] for the one having died for sin has been set right.

Romans 6:8-14 — Tentative Reading
[08] Moreover, if we have died together with Meshiah, we believe that we shall also live with him: [09] knowing that Meshiah having been raised from the dead may die no more, death having no more dominion over him, [10] for in that he died, he died once to sin, but in that he lives, he lives unto Elohim. [11] In this manner you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive unto Elohim in Meshiah Ι̅Η. [12] Let not sin therefore have dominion in your mortal body, that you should obey it in the passions thereof: [13] neither offer your members as instruments of unrighteousness for sin, but offer yourselves unto Elohim as though alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto Elohim, [14] for sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not by way of law, but by way of grace.

Romans 6:15-23 — Tentative Reading
[15] What then, shall we sin because we are not by way of law, but by way of grace? Let it never be! [16] Know you not that to whom you offer yourselves as servants to obey, the servants you are of whom you obey, whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? [17] But thanks be to Elohim, though you were servants of sin, you also hearkened from the heart to the form of doctrine which delivered you up: [18] and having been delivered from sin, you became servants of righteousness. [19] I speak after the manner of men due to the infirmity of your flesh: for just as you offered your members as servants for uncleanness, and for lawlessness unto lawlessness, in the same manner now offer your members as servants for righteousness unto sanctification, [20] for when you were slaves to sin you were free from righteousness. [21] What fruit therefore had you then, in those things for which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. [22] But now, having been delivered from sin, and being servants unto Elohim, you have your fruit unto sanctification, and the end is everlasting life: [23] for the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of Elohim is life everlasting in Meshiah Ι̅Η our Master.

Romans 7 — Tentative Reading
Nomos for Choq — Statute / Ordinance
Example: ουτος ο νομος του πασχα — Exodus 12:43 OG LXX

Romans 7:1-6 — Nomos-Choq — Statute
[01] Or are you unaware, brethren, for I speak to those knowing the Torah, that the Torah has dominion over a man for as long as he lives? [02] For the wife of an husband is bound with a statute to the living husband: but if the husband dies, she is released from the statute of the husband. [03] So then, the husband being alive, she will be called an adulteress if she becomes another man: but if the husband dies, she is released from the statute, so that she will not be an adulteress in becoming another man. [04] Wherefore, my brethren, you also were put to death to the statute by way of the body of Meshiah toward your becoming another, one having been raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit unto Elohim. [05] For when we were in the flesh, the inclinations of sins that were by way of the statute worked in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. [06] But now we are released from the statute, having died in what held us, so that we may serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Romans 7:7-15 — Commandment not to Covet — Exodus 20:17 / Deut 5:21
[07] What therefore shall we say, is the statute sin? Let it never be! Contrariwise, I would not have known the sin if not by way of the statute: for I also would not have known covetousness if the Torah had not said, You shall not covet. [08] But sin, taking occasion by way of the commandment, worked in me all manner of covetousness: for apart from the Torah, sin was dead. [09] Moreover I was alive before, without the Torah: but the commandment having come, sin revived and I died. [10] And the commandment unto life, I found to be death unto me: [11] for sin, taking occasion by way of the commandment, beguiled me, and through it slew me. [12] Therefore, indeed, the Torah is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. [13] Has the good therefore become death unto me? Let it never be! Contrariwise, the sin, that it might be shown to be sin, worked death unto me by way of the good, that by way of the commandment the sin might be made exceedingly sinful, [14] for we know that the Torah is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold under sin: [15] for what I work I know not, because not that which I wish to practice, but what I hate, that I do.

Romans 7:16-25 — The Torah of the Sin / Sin offering — Leviticus 6:25
[16] But if I do that which I desire not, I agree with the Torah that it is good. [17] Now therefore it is no more I myself working it, but the sin that dwells in me: [18] for I know that no good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh, for the inclination is present within me, but to work the good is not. [19] For not the good I desire to do, but the evil I desire not: that I do. [20] And if what I desire not, that I do, it is no more I myself working it, but the sin cohabiting with me. [21] I find therefore the torah-instruction, by my inclination to do the good, that the evil inclination (ellipsis) is present with me: [22] for I delight in the Torah of Elohim according to the inward man, [23] but I perceive a different torah-instruction in my members, warring against the torah of my mind, and taking me captive through the torah of the sin offering [τω νομω της αμαρτιας] which exists in my members [Mark 9:43-50]. [24] O miserable man that I am, what shall rescue me from this body of death? [25] The grace of Elohim by way of Ι̅Η Meshiah our Master! [Testimony] So then, with the mind I myself indeed serve the Torah of Elohim, but with the flesh I serve the torah sin offering [νομω αμαρτιας].

ουτος ο νομος της αμαρτιας — Leviticus 6:25 OG LXX
τω νομω της αμαρτιας — Romans 7:23

Continued Below

 

[dak]

Romans 8:1-8 — Tentative Reading — Torah-Instruction
[01] There is now therefore no condemnation to those that are in Meshiah Ι̅Η, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit: [02] for the torah-instruction of the Spirit of Life in Meshiah Ι̅Η has delivered me/you by way of the torah-instruction of the sin offering and of death [απο του νομου της αμαρτιας και του θανατου]. [03] For what the torah-instruction was not able to do, in that it was weak by way of the flesh, Elohim sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and concerning sin, condemned the sin in the flesh, [04] that the righteous ordinance of the Torah might be fulfilled in us, those not walking according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. [05] For those being according to the flesh mind the things of the flesh: but those according to the Spirit mind the things of the Spirit, [06] for the inclination of the flesh is death, but the inclination of the Spirit is life and peace: [07] for the inclination of the flesh is enmity against Elohim, for it is not subject to the Torah of Elohim, neither indeed can it be, [08] and those being in/by the flesh cannot please Elohim.

Romans 8:9-15 — Tentative Reading
[09] But you are not in/by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of Elohim dwells in you: but if anyone has not the Spirit of Meshiah, the same is not his. [10] And if Meshiah is in you, surely the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness: [11] and if the Spirit of the One having raised Ι̅Η from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Meshiah Ι̅Η from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by way of His Spirit dwelling in you. [12] Therefore now, brethren, we are debtors, but not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh: [13] for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the works of the body you shall live: [14] for as many as are led by the Spirit of Elohim, these are the sons of Elohim, [15] for you received not again the spirit of bondage unto fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry Abba, Father.

Thus we are carnal and sold under sin, (Rom 7:14), but who purchased us according to Paul? (1Cor 6:19-20).
Thus we are debtors, and our debt is to no more walk according to the flesh, (Rom 8:12).
And what is our reasonable service according to Paul? (Rom 12:1).

Concerning the torah-instructions and teachings of the Spirit of Life that was and is in Meshiah, (Rom 8:2), pertaining to these instructions for cutting off sin, and for putting the members of our households to death, or mortifying them, or putting them to sleep: thanks be to the Father for sending His Son into the world, for his Testimony is Spirit and Life, (John 6:63), and therefore no doubt the death required of us through these teachings is not the physical death of the physical body. This is part of taking up your own stake, utterly denying yourself, and following the Master unto the end.

Matthew 5:27-30
[27] You have heard that it was said by those of old time, You shall not commit adultery:
[28] But, I say to you, Whosoever looks upon a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
[29] And if your right eye entices you to sin, pluck it out, and cast it from you: for it is better for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into GeHenna.
[30] And if your right hand entices you to sin, cut it off, and cast it from you: for it is better for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into GeHenna.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Paul both teaches and serves the torah-instruction of the sin offering, but first we must understand from where his teaching is derived: he states that he teaches the commandments of the Master, (1Cor 14:37), and in this case we find the likely answer in the following passage quoted below. However, in the Mark passage below, the Master appears to be teaching concerning the trespass offering, yet the sin offering and the trespass offering are of one torah-instruction, (see Lev 7:7).

Mark 9:43-50
43 And if your hand entices you to sin, cut it off: it is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands, to depart into Gehenna, into the unquenchable fire, 44 where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off: it is better for you to enter into life lame, than having two feet to be cast into Gehenna, into the unquenchable fire, 46 where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
47 And if your eye entices you to sin, eject it: it is better for you to enter into the Kingdom of Elohim single-eyed, than having two eyes, to be cast into the fire of Gehenna, 48 where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
49 For everyone shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. [Lev 2:13]
50 Salt is good, but if the salt has lost its saltiness, with what will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another.

Leviticus 2:13 is the only place in the Torah where the command to salt every sacrifice is given.
There is no other place we find this commandment to salt every offering or sacrifice.

Leviticus 2:13
13 And every offering of your minhah-flour offering you shall season with salt: neither shall you allow the salt of the covenant of your Elohim to be lacking from your minchah-flour offering: with all your offerings you shall offer salt. [Mrk 9:49]

Mark 9:49
49 For everyone shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. [Lev 2:13]

The Master expounds the sacrifices in this passage beginning with the commandment to offer salt with every sacrificial offering or sacrifice: but he teaches not according to what the natural mind of the natural man perceives to be literal-physical animal sacrifices, for the Mark text is plain as day what he is teaching about, that is, cutting off sin from your members in a manner of speech which is almost to the point of apocalyptic, so that the hearer and reader may know that he speaks of supernal and spiritual things, and not of physical and natural things of below. Moreover at the same time he also quotes a well known statement from Yeshayah the Prophet, at the very end of that book, and the LXX version of the passage confirms precisely what he is speaking about in the Mark 9 passage.

Isaiah 66:24 OG LXX
24 και εξελευσονται και οψονται τα κωλα των ανθρωπων των παραβεβηκοτων εν εμοι ο γαρ σκωληξ αυτων ου τελευτησει και το πυρ αυτων ου σβεσθησεται και εσονται εις ορασιν παση σαρκι

κωλα = κωλον = a limb of the body, as if chopped or lopped off (re: Mark 9:43-50).

Mickelson's
G2966 κῶλον kolon (kō'-lon) n.
a limb of the body (as if lopped).
[from the base of G2849]

The Master therefore interprets for us this passage from the Prophet by referring the hearer to the commandment to salt every sacrifice in Lev 2:13, proving that he teaches a spiritual and supernal application to the sacrifices. And what therefore does that also tell us? In his Testimony he is indeed renewing the covenant, not overturning it or planning for it to be set aside or any part of it to be abolished. It is indeed therefore a renewed covenant because his Testimony has restored the covenant and all its instructions and teachings to their original meanings and intent as they were originally given, but obviously the record cannot go over every instance of every statute, ordinance, command, and saying in the Living Oracles of Elohim: we therefore must understand the principles which are given and taught as examples, and from there know how to understand what has not been addressed. There is one very simple little fact that when people ignore it they stumble, and that fact is that the Torah is spiritual according to Paul in Rom 7:14a, and to ignore this fact can be catastrophic to doctrine, and is one of the principle reasons why people, preachers, and teachers can end up misunderstanding the writings of Paul.

Moreover the trespass offering, (H817 אָשָׁם 'asham), is called πλημμελεια in the Greek LXX. This is a compound

That text is false and misleading. It twists the words of Jesus and tries to mix His pure teaching about repentance and holiness with the old temple sacrifices that He came to fulfill and end. you wrongly claims that Jesus’ words in (Mark 9:43–50) are about the trespass and sin offerings of the Torah, when in truth Jesus was teaching about cutting sin out of one’s life, not about performing rituals.

When Jesus said, “If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off,” He was not teaching about animal offerings or Levitical law. He was warning that it is better to remove sin completely than to be thrown into hell. The passage is about repentance, not sacrifices. His words “salted with fire” are a symbol of purification — fire represents trials that test and cleanse believers, and salt represents the faithfulness and purity that must remain in those who belong to God. (Matthew 5:13) and (Mark 9:49–50) both show this. Jesus calls us to be “the salt of the earth,” not to offer salted animal sacrifices. The claim that Jesus was “renewing the covenant” by restoring Torah sacrifices is completely false. Jesus renewed the covenant by offering Himself once for all, ending the need for the blood of bulls and goats. He fulfilled the Law and the Prophets, as He said: “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill” (Matthew 5:17). To fulfill means to complete, not to continue temple sacrifices in a secret or spiritual way.

When Jesus said at the Last Supper, “This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins” (Matthew 26:28), He made it clear that His sacrifice replaces all other sacrifices. He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29). No more sin or trespass offerings are needed, because He paid it all. “It is finished” (John 19:30).

Your use of Greek words to connect “members” of the body with the “trespass offering” is also false. Jesus was not making wordplays in Greek. He simply spoke of the members of the body — hand, foot, and eye — to show that if any part of your life causes sin, remove it. His teaching is spiritual and moral, not symbolic of the Levitical law.

This kind of teaching is dangerous because it tries to bring people back under the shadows that Jesus removed using clever wording to hide its error, but it denies the power and purpose of Christ’s sacrifice. Jesus did not come to restore the temple sacrifices — He came to become the final sacrifice, and to call His followers to holiness, repentance, and spiritual purity.

The true meaning of (Mark 9:43–50) is clear and simple: turn away from sin completely, even if it costs you something dear. Everyone will be tested and purified by God’s fire, and we must keep the salt — the purity and truth — within us. “Have salt in you rselves, and be at peace with one another” (Mark 9:50).

This false teaching, It is a trap of confusion that mixes the old covenant shadows with the light of Christ. The Torah pointed to the Messiah, but Jesus brought its purpose to completion. The new covenant is not about salted offerings — it is about a pure heart before God.

“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God” (Matthew 5:8).
“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you” (John 15:3).
“Offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service” (Romans 12:1).

This is the true sacrifice Jesus desires — a repentant heart, a holy life, and obedience to the Father’s will. All else is deception.

 

[dak]

That text is false and misleading. It twists the words of Jesus and tries to mix His pure teaching about repentance and holiness with the old temple sacrifices that He came to fulfill and end. you wrongly claims that Jesus’ words in (Mark 9:43–50) are about the trespass and sin offerings of the Torah, when in truth Jesus was teaching about cutting sin out of one’s life, not about performing rituals.

When Jesus said, “If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off,” He was not teaching about animal offerings or Levitical law. He was warning that it is better to remove sin completely than to be thrown into hell. The passage is about repentance, not sacrifices. His words “salted with fire” are a symbol of purification — fire represents trials that test and cleanse believers, and salt represents the faithfulness and purity that must remain in those who belong to God. (Matthew 5:13) and (Mark 9:49–50) both show this. Jesus calls us to be “the salt of the earth,” not to offer salted animal sacrifices. The claim that Jesus was “renewing the covenant” by restoring Torah sacrifices is completely false. Jesus renewed the covenant by offering Himself once for all, ending the need for the blood of bulls and goats. He fulfilled the Law and the Prophets, as He said: “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill” (Matthew 5:17). To fulfill means to complete, not to continue temple sacrifices in a secret or spiritual way.

When Jesus said at the Last Supper, “This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins” (Matthew 26:28), He made it clear that His sacrifice replaces all other sacrifices. He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29). No more sin or trespass offerings are needed, because He paid it all. “It is finished” (John 19:30).

Your use of Greek words to connect “members” of the body with the “trespass offering” is also false. Jesus was not making wordplays in Greek. He simply spoke of the members of the body — hand, foot, and eye — to show that if any part of your life causes sin, remove it. His teaching is spiritual and moral, not symbolic of the Levitical law.

This kind of teaching is dangerous because it tries to bring people back under the shadows that Jesus removed using clever wording to hide its error, but it denies the power and purpose of Christ’s sacrifice. Jesus did not come to restore the temple sacrifices — He came to become the final sacrifice, and to call His followers to holiness, repentance, and spiritual purity.

The true meaning of (Mark 9:43–50) is clear and simple: turn away from sin completely, even if it costs you something dear. Everyone will be tested and purified by God’s fire, and we must keep the salt — the purity and truth — within us. “Have salt in you rselves, and be at peace with one another” (Mark 9:50).

This false teaching, It is a trap of confusion that mixes the old covenant shadows with the light of Christ. The Torah pointed to the Messiah, but Jesus brought its purpose to completion. The new covenant is not about salted offerings — it is about a pure heart before God.


This is the true sacrifice Jesus desires — a repentant heart, a holy life, and obedience to the Father’s will. All else is deception.

I did not say what you claim: this is has nothing to do with animal sacrifices.
It appears you have misunderstood most of what was posted.

Please explain your interpretation-understanding of the Mark passage which was posted, your full explanation, (and show me where it says anything about animal sacrifices while you are at it). You've learned way too much from the Pharisees: trust Meshiah, not the Pharisees who denied him and still deny him to this day.

The Torah is spiritual, (Rom 7:14a), therefore believe Paul also, not the Pharisees and their faulty interpretations of the Torah. Who told you that the Torah-Instruction of our Father teaches the slaughtering of the innocent living souls of His creation, (animal sacrifices), and to offer up their blood for your own trespasses and sins? That is extortion and malice, ("You shall not offer the blood of My sacrifice with chametz). Have you never read the Prophets and Psalms? (especially the Psalms of king David)?

Mickelson's
H2557 חָמֵץ chamets (chaw-mates') n-m.
1. ferment.
2. (figuratively) extortion.
[from H2556]
KJV: leaven, leavened (bread).
Root(s): H2556

Mickelson's
H2556 חָמֵץ chamets (chaw-mates') v.
1. to be pungent.
2. (in taste) sour.
3. (literally) fermented.
4. (figuratively) harsh.
5. (in color) dazzling.
[a primitive root]
KJV: cruel (man), dyed, be grieved, leavened.

One is the noun, the other is the verb, they are essentially the same word, (especially without the pointing, which did not even exist until about a mere thousand years ago), but they are now separated by the Strong's numbering system, (which is erroneous in this and many other ways), and in fact fermentation, (chametz) is a word used for liquids, even the blood of the grape, so it isn't even actually talking about leaven, which is not for blood or wine but for bread.

You therefore have a choice, just as the Torah says:
Choose Life ~ Deuteronomy 30:11-19

 

[LoveYeshua]

I did not say what you claim: this is has nothing to do with animal sacrifices.
It appears you have misunderstood most of what was posted.

Please explain your interpretation-understanding of the Mark passage which was posted, your full explanation, (and show me where it says anything about animal sacrifices while you are at it). You've learned way too much from the Pharisees: trust Meshiah, not the Pharisees who denied him and still deny him to this day.

The Torah is spiritual, (Rom 7:14a), therefore believe Paul also, not the Pharisees and their faulty interpretations of the Torah. Who told you that the Torah-Instruction of our Father teaches the slaughtering of the innocent living souls of His creation, (animal sacrifices), and to offer up their blood for your own trespasses and sins? That is extortion and malice, ("You shall not offer the blood of My sacrifice with chametz). Have you never read the Prophets and Psalms? (especially the Psalms of king David)?

Mickelson's
H2557 חָמֵץ chamets (chaw-mates') n-m.
1. ferment.
2. (figuratively) extortion.
[from H2556]
KJV: leaven, leavened (bread).
Root(s): H2556

Mickelson's
H2556 חָמֵץ chamets (chaw-mates') v.
1. to be pungent.
2. (in taste) sour.
3. (literally) fermented.
4. (figuratively) harsh.
5. (in color) dazzling.
[a primitive root]
KJV: cruel (man), dyed, be grieved, leavened.

One is the noun, the other is the verb, they are essentially the same word, (especially without the pointing, which did not even exist until about a mere thousand years ago), but they are now separated by the Strong's numbering system, (which is erroneous in this and many other ways), and in fact fermentation, (chametz) is a word used for liquids, even the blood of the grape, so it isn't even actually talking about leaven, which is not for blood or wine but for bread.

You therefore have a choice, just as the Torah says:
Choose Life ~ Deuteronomy 30:11-19

I think I read you correctly the first post anyways. I did not need to read the rest. If you meant something different could you simplify the text, it would help greatly. You seem to deviate and over analyze the texts, most translations in English are quite acceptable altough not perfect, if not the interlinear is useful. Too much analyses somehow muddles the intended meaning, please keep it simple to start with then we could delve deeper.

Yes I agree we do have a choice the one I chose for myself is to follow the teachings of Christ as spoken by our lord himself and recorded textually by his chosen disciples.

 

[amigo de christo]

I think I read you correctly the first post anyways. I did not need to read the rest. If you meant something different could you simplify the text, it would help greatly. You seem to deviate and over analyze the texts, most translations in English are quite acceptable altough not perfect, if not the interlinear is useful. Too much analyses somehow muddles the intended meaning, please keep it simple to start with then we could delve deeper.

Yes I agree we do have a choice the one I chose for myself is to follow the teachings of Christ as spoken by our lord himself and recorded textually by his chosen disciples.

BEWARE for many do such things . always over ananlyze they do , often using special greek words
and fancy sounding things .
but you know what i notice about them all .
It often takes five pages for them to explain one little line
and really all they are doing is MAKING IT SAY SOMETHING IT NEVER MEANT . that is a fact friend .

 

[amigo de christo]

I think I read you correctly the first post anyways. I did not need to read the rest. If you meant something different could you simplify the text, it would help greatly. You seem to deviate and over analyze the texts, most translations in English are quite acceptable altough not perfect, if not the interlinear is useful. Too much analyses somehow muddles the intended meaning, please keep it simple to start with then we could delve deeper.

Yes I agree we do have a choice the one I chose for myself is to follow the teachings of Christ as spoken by our lord himself and recorded textually by his chosen disciples.

That is the problem with many my friend . IF something JESUS said they no likey
THEY REWIRE IT TO MEAN SOMETHING ELSE . BINGO friend .
But as you said RIGHTLY , TO FOLLOW the TEACHINGS of CHRIST as HE SPOKE THEM .
all many do is simply TWIST HIS OWN WORDS and in effect THEY CALL HIM the liar
and their well educated men THE VOICE OF GOD . AND beleive you me THAT WONT BODE WELL AT ALL for such who do that .

 

[LoveYeshua]

BEWARE for many do such things . always over ananlyze they do , often using special greek words
and fancy sounding things .
but you know what i notice about them all .
It often takes five pages for them to explain one little line
and really all they are doing is MAKING IT SAY SOMETHING IT NEVER MEANT . that is a fact friend .

yes so many pages for so little, DO not worry Brother, I can spot anyone speaking against our beloved Lord Jesus from a mile away literally.

 

[amigo de christo]

I think I read you correctly the first post anyways. I did not need to read the rest. If you meant something different could you simplify the text, it would help greatly. You seem to deviate and over analyze the texts, most translations in English are quite acceptable altough not perfect, if not the interlinear is useful. Too much analyses somehow muddles the intended meaning, please keep it simple to start with then we could delve deeper.

Yes I agree we do have a choice the one I chose for myself is to follow the teachings of Christ as spoken by our lord himself and recorded textually by his chosen disciples.

What did pual himself once say .
THEY always strive ABOUT WORDS .
this people is and are in love with men who always Strive over words , always adding in
a big ol greek and english lesson as they do nothing BUT REALLY TWIST THE TRUTH
to fit something THEY BELEIVED and TAUGHT . they do not fool the sheep my freind .
ITS REAL easy to see what many now do .
Its like a rebellious child that always tries to twist its own parents words to justify his own actions .
THAT IS all this is my friend . TIS MUMBO JUMBO taught by REBELLIONS people to a HOLY GOD
who did not want TO HEAR AND HEED HIS WORDS but rather twist and cast them out . all it is my friend .

 

[dak]

I think I read you correctly the first post anyways. I did not need to read the rest. If you meant something different could you simplify the text, it would help greatly. You seem to deviate and over analyze the texts, most translations in English are quite acceptable altough not perfect, if not the interlinear is useful. Too much analyses somehow muddles the intended meaning, please keep it simple to start with then we could delve deeper.

So use your favorite translation and explain the Mark passage according to your understanding. Since I do not know which is your favorite translation I'll just post the KJV below.

Mark 9:43-50 KJV
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. [Lev 2:13]
50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

1) Why does he keep quoting Isaiah 66:24? Have you checked the context there?
2) Why does he quote a critical portion of Lev 2:13, the command to salt every sacrifice? How does that pertain to the things he has said which are quoted before that in the passage quote above?
3) Why does he say "Have salt in yourselves at the end of this teaching? Is it not true that the Kingdom of Elohim is within you? (Luke 17:20-21).

The background for the Isaiah quote includes the new heavens and new earth:

Isaiah 66:19-24 KJV
19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; [Mark 9:43-48] and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Please explain why quoting from this passage is so important: for it must be so because the Master made it part of his discourse and even quotes the statement three times, (in the Mark passage the T/R and the BYZ text types are correct in this). Also, did you happen to notice what is written at the beginning of this same final chapter of the Prophet? (the KJV isn't going to cut it for this one).

Isaiah 66:1-4 TS2009
1 Thus said יהוה, “The heavens are My throne, and the earth is My footstool. Where is this house that you build for Me? And where is this place of My rest?
2 “And all these My hand has made, and all these that exist,” declares יהוה. “Yet to such a one I look: on him who is poor and bruised of spirit, and who trembles at My Word.
3 “But whoever slays the bull strikes a man; whoever slaughters the lamb breaks a dog’s neck; whoever brings a grain offering – pig’s blood; whoever burns incense blesses an idol. Indeed, they have chosen their own ways, and their being delights in their abominations.
4 “I shall also choose their punishments, and bring their fears on them. Because I called, but no one answered. I spoke and they did not hear, and they did evil before My eyes, and chose what was displeasing to Me.”

Again, choose life in all your understanding of the Torah, which is spiritual, (Rom 7:14a).

Yes I agree we do have a choice the one I chose for myself is to follow the teachings of Christ as spoken by our lord himself and recorded textually by his chosen disciples.

I have obviously chosen the same: but that is not what the Torah passage I referenced is speaking about. Did you not read it? Please read it for your own good: Mosheh clearly states that he has set before the hearer and the reader, "See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil"......."I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your seed may live". "Take heed therefore how you hear", (Luke 8:18).

This is about how you perceive what you hear and read in the Torah: if one sees death it is only because the same has chosen death in what he see, reads, and hears, for that is the way the natural man perceives spiritual instructions, it is according to the mind of the natural and carnal man, seeing all things as physical and natural, and therefore such a one cannot please Elohim, just as Paul teaches, and moreover Paul quotes from this passage in Rom 10:6-8, even saying, "τουτ εστιν το ρημα της πιστεως ο κηρυσσομεν" -- This is the Rhema-Word of the faith which we preach".

 

[dak]

BEWARE for many do such things . always over ananlyze they do , often using special greek words
and fancy sounding things .
but you know what i notice about them all .
It often takes five pages for them to explain one little line
and really all they are doing is MAKING IT SAY SOMETHING IT NEVER MEANT . that is a fact friend .

That is the problem with many my friend . IF something JESUS said they no likey
THEY REWIRE IT TO MEAN SOMETHING ELSE . BINGO friend .
But as you said RIGHTLY , TO FOLLOW the TEACHINGS of CHRIST as HE SPOKE THEM .
all many do is simply TWIST HIS OWN WORDS and in effect THEY CALL HIM the liar
and their well educated men THE VOICE OF GOD . AND beleive you me THAT WONT BODE WELL AT ALL for such who do that .

yes so many pages for so little, DO not worry Brother, I can spot anyone speaking against our beloved Lord Jesus from a mile away literally.

What did pual himself once say .
THEY always strive ABOUT WORDS .
this people is and are in love with men who always Strive over words , always adding in
a big ol greek and english lesson as they do nothing BUT REALLY TWIST THE TRUTH
to fit something THEY BELEIVED and TAUGHT . they do not fool the sheep my freind .
ITS REAL easy to see what many now do .
Its like a rebellious child that always tries to twist its own parents words to justify his own actions .
THAT IS all this is my friend . TIS MUMBO JUMBO taught by REBELLIONS people to a HOLY GOD
who did not want TO HEAR AND HEED HIS WORDS but rather twist and cast them out . all it is my friend .

What I notice about both of you is that you enter this thread with accusation guns blasting but apparently neither of you understand what has been presented or is capable of actually engaging with what has been presented.

Amigo, I ask the same of you as I asked of your friend: please explain the Testimony of the Master in the Mark 9 passage quoted twice now in this thread. Please show your love for the Father and His Word, His Son, and likewise show me wrong with your massive amount of study done in this passage alone so as to know the full truth it presents to those who love the Meshiah and walk in his Testimony.

 

[LoveYeshua]

So use your favorite translation and explain the Mark passage according to your understanding. Since I do not know which is your favorite translation I'll just post the KJV below.

Mark 9:43-50 KJV
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. [Lev 2:13]
50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

1) Why does he keep quoting Isaiah 66:24? Have you checked the context there?
2) Why does he quote a critical portion of Lev 2:13, the command to salt every sacrifice? How does that pertain to the things he has said which are quoted before that in the passage quote above?
3) Why does he say "Have salt in yourselves at the end of this teaching? Is it not true that the Kingdom of Elohim is within you? (Luke 17:20-21).

The background for the Isaiah quote includes the new heavens and new earth:

Isaiah 66:19-24 KJV
19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; [Mark 9:43-48] and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Please explain why quoting from this passage is so important: for it must be so because the Master made it part of his discourse and even quotes the statement three times, (in the Mark passage the T/R and the BYZ text types are correct in this). Also, did you happen to notice what is written at the beginning of this same final chapter of the Prophet? (the KJV isn't going to cut it for this one).

1 Thus said יהוה, “The heavens are My throne, and the earth is My footstool. Where is this house that you build for Me? And where is this place of My rest?
2 “And all these My hand has made, and all these that exist,” declares יהוה. “Yet to such a one I look: on him who is poor and bruised of spirit, and who trembles at My Word.
3 “But whoever slays the bull strikes a man; whoever slaughters the lamb breaks a dog’s neck; whoever brings a grain offering – pig’s blood; whoever burns incense blesses an idol. Indeed, they have chosen their own ways, and their being delights in their abominations.
4 “I shall also choose their punishments, and bring their fears on them. Because I called, but no one answered. I spoke and they did not hear, and they did evil before My eyes, and chose what was displeasing to Me.”

Again, choose life in all your understanding of the Torah, which is spiritual, (Rom 7:14a).



I have obviously chosen the same: but that is not what the Torah passage I referenced is speaking about. Did you not read it? Please read it for your own good: Mosheh clearly states that he has set before the hearer and the reader, "See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil"......."I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your seed may live".

This is about how you perceive what you hear and read in the Torah: if one sees death it is only because the same hase chosen death in what he see, reads, and hears, for that is the way the natural man perceives spiritual instructions, it is according to the mind of the natural and carnal man, seeing all things as physical and natural, and therefore such a one cannot please Elohim, just as Paul teaches, and moreover Paul quotes from this passage in Rom 10:6-8, even saying, "τουτ εστιν το ρημα της πιστεως ο κηρυσσομεν" -- This is the Rhema-Word of the faith which we preach".

What Jesus was teaching in Mark 9:43–50 was not a lesson about temple offerings or Levitical rituals, as I wrote to you before, but about the seriousness of sin and the final judgment. Jesus often used strong and symbolic language to warn people about what happens to those who refuse to repent. Our Lord Jesus used simple language with a limited number of words so that everyone could understand. It is not necessary to over-explain such perfect words from God’s own Son — we should take what He says at face value. Yes, sometimes Jesus’ words have a deeper meaning, and this shows the importance of knowing all Scripture well, especially the Old Testament, which points to the Son of God. Jesus came to fulfill the prophecies about Him, among other things.

As for the repeated quote from Isaiah 66:24, Jesus used it to show that the punishment for the wicked is real and eternal. Isaiah spoke of the final time when God would create the new heavens and the new earth, and when all flesh would come to worship Him. At that time, those who rebelled against Him would be a warning example to all people: “their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.” Jesus repeated this three times to stress the certainty and permanence of judgment. He did not quote it to connect His words to the temple system, but to show the final separation between the righteous and the wicked when God’s kingdom is revealed.

For the rest I do believe I have explained already, please keep it simple because it is.

 

[LoveYeshua]

What I notice about both of you is that you enter this thread with accusation guns blasting but apparently neither of you understand what has been presented or is capable of actually engaging with what has been presented.

Amigo, I ask the same of you as I asked of your friend: please explain the Testimony of the Master in the Mark 9 passage quoted twice now in this thread. Please show your love for the Father and His Word, His Son, and likewise show me wrong with your massive amount of study done in this passage alone so as to know the full truth it presents to those who love the Meshiah and walk in his Testimony.

With what you wrote it was necessary! if you think we cannot understand and have lowly intellect think again.

it is not necessary out of love to correct someone when you see the mistakes about the words and true meaning of our Lord are misunderstood?

 

[LoveYeshua]

@dak As you requested;

Mark 9:43–50 (KJV)
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

In this passage, Jesus gives one of His strongest warnings about sin and the judgment to come. He speaks in symbols to help people understand how serious sin is and how it destroys the soul if left unrepented.

When Jesus says, “If thy hand offend thee, cut it off,” He is not telling anyone to harm their body. He is using a picture to teach that anything in life that causes us to sin must be removed, even if it feels painful or costly. The “hand,” “foot,” and “eye” represent the actions we take, the paths we walk, and the things we desire. If any of these lead us to disobey God, it is better to give them up than to be cast into hell.

The word “hell” here comes from Gehenna, a place outside Jerusalem where fires burned continually to consume waste. Jesus used this image to describe the eternal fire of judgment for those who reject God. That is why He repeats three times, “Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” He is quoting Isaiah 66:24, where the prophet describes the final judgment after God creates the new heavens and the new earth. In that day, those who rebelled against Him will be an everlasting reminder of the cost of disobedience.

By repeating Isaiah’s words three times, Jesus is showing that the punishment of the wicked is not temporary or symbolic—it is final and real. He is warning His followers that sin, if not repented of, leads to eternal separation from God. His purpose is not to scare but to awaken the heart to repentance and obedience.

Then Jesus adds another saying: “For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.” In the law of Moses (Leviticus 2:13), every offering was to be seasoned with salt, which preserved it and kept it from corruption. Jesus uses this as a symbol. The “fire” here can mean two things: the fire of testing for the faithful and the fire of judgment for the disobedient. Those who follow Christ will be “salted with fire” in the sense that they are purified through trials, just as metal is refined by fire. Their faith is made pure and strong, and through this, they are preserved for eternal life.

But those who refuse to repent will face the fire that destroys, the same unquenchable fire He just warned about. The same fire that purifies the righteous will consume the wicked—one for cleansing, the other for judgment.

That is why Jesus concludes with, “Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.” Salt here means the inner quality of a true disciple—purity, obedience, and faithfulness. If a disciple loses this, he becomes like tasteless salt—without value. Jesus is saying, Keep within you the spirit of truth and obedience that keeps your life pure before God. Let this salt preserve you and bring peace among you.

So, the whole teaching of this passage is a call to inner holiness and sincere repentance. Jesus is warning that sin must not be treated lightly, for it leads to eternal loss. He is urging His followers to be spiritually awake, to cut off anything that separates them from God, and to allow themselves to be purified by His fire.

In simple words, Jesus is saying: It is better to lose something in this life than to lose eternal life itself. The hands, feet, and eyes are not the problem—the heart is. And the only way to enter into life is to have a heart that is salted with truth, purified by repentance, and at peace with God and others.

Thus, Mark 9:43–50 is not about temple sacrifices or outward rituals, but about the inner sacrifice of sin and self, a heart fully surrendered to God. Jesus ends by saying, “Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another,” meaning: keep your heart pure, live in truth, and walk in love—these are the true signs of a disciple in the Kingdom of God.

Blessings and sorry for before I like to tease sometimes and meant no harm.

 

[dak]

What Jesus was teaching in Mark 9:43–50 was not a lesson about temple offerings or Levitical rituals, as I wrote to you before, but about the seriousness of sin and the final judgment.

Which you wrote and now say again without any evidence.

Jesus often used strong and symbolic language to warn people about what happens to those who refuse to repent. Our Lord Jesus used simple language with a limited number of words so that everyone could understand.

No doubt his disciples understood the connection to both Lev 2:13 and Isa 66:24 and it is surely not what you have dreamed up.

It is not necessary to over-explain such perfect words from God’s own Son — we should take what He says at face value. Yes, sometimes Jesus’ words have a deeper meaning, and this shows the importance of knowing all Scripture well, especially the Old Testament, which points to the Son of God. Jesus came to fulfill the prophecies about Him, among other things.

This thread would not be "over-explaining" to anyone who studies the Torah, Prophets, and Writings.

As for the repeated quote from Isaiah 66:24, Jesus used it to show that the punishment for the wicked is real and eternal. Isaiah spoke of the final time when God would create the new heavens and the new earth, and when all flesh would come to worship Him. At that time, those who rebelled against Him would be a warning example to all people: “their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.” Jesus repeated this three times to stress the certainty and permanence of judgment. He did not quote it to connect His words to the temple system, but to show the final separation between the righteous and the wicked when God’s kingdom is revealed.

Again you speak from your imagination because you have no evidence to support what you say. Moreover your dispensationist futurism prohibits your mind from processing and understanding that these things are spoken to all believers in every generation who walk with the Master in his Testimony. I do these things in every prayer offering before the Father in Yerushalem of Above: in every prayer offering of a new hodesh in its hodesh, and in every prayer offering of a Shabbat in its Shabbat. And when I open my eyes, going forth from my prayer chamber, what do you suppose I see round about me? I see the eyes, arms, hands, legs, and feet which I have put to death as the sacrifices which they are, according to my Master, so as to be pleasing to the Father and His Son by way of the Testimony of His Son in the Gospel accounts: for I am indeed a renewed creation, the old things are passed away, behold, all things have been renewed.

For the rest I do believe I have explained already, please keep it simple because it is.

A simpleton who does despite to the Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts is simply a fool: for his Testimony is Spirit and Life, (John 6:63), and is likewise the renewed Spirit of the renewed Covenant foretold through Ezekiel the Prophet in Eze 11:19-20 and Eze 36:25-28, and therefore his Testimony is also the Spirit of Grace, (Zec 12:10, Heb 10:29). Testimony is spirit, whether for the good, or whether for the evil: as it is now there are two sons of perdition breathing out lies, through two uninformed people, attempting to sideline and water down the Testimony of the Master in this thread. The Gospel is to each in his or her own appointed times, and the time appointed of the Father, when a child becomes a tried and true son, is a day known only to the Father, (Gal 4:1-2).

Hebrews 10:35-39 KJV
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. [Hab 2:2-3 LXX]
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. [Hab 2:4 LXX]
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

One must first do the will of Elohim, and his or her faith must be tested just as Abraham in Gen 22.

1 Thessalonians 4:1-8 KJV
1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

Your apocalypse will not be televised: it's going to be private and individual, you and the Master, and this I know by experience and much study to confirm what actually happened to me in those days. You and I are of incredibly different mindsets, (lose the dispensational theology trap: it is deceiving you just as it did to me quite some time ago now).

 

[Marvelloustime]

What did pual himself once say .
THEY always strive ABOUT WORDS .
this people is and are in love with men who always Strive over words , always adding in
a big ol greek and english lesson as they do nothing BUT REALLY TWIST THE TRUTH
to fit something THEY BELEIVED and TAUGHT . they do not fool the sheep my freind .
ITS REAL easy to see what many now do .
Its like a rebellious child that always tries to twist its own parents words to justify his own actions .
THAT IS all this is my friend . TIS MUMBO JUMBO taught by REBELLIONS people to a HOLY GOD
who did not want TO HEAR AND HEED HIS WORDS but rather twist and cast them out . all it is my friend .

@amigo de christo

 

[LoveYeshua]

Which you wrote and now say again without any evidence.



No doubt his disciples understood the connection to both Lev 2:13 and Isa 66:24 and it is surely not what you have dreamed up.



This thread would not be "over-explaining" to anyone who studies the Torah, Prophets, and Writings.



Again you speak from your imagination because you have no evidence to support what you say. Moreover your dispensationist futurism prohibits your mind from processing and understanding that these things are spoken to all believers in every generation who walk with the Master in his Testimony. I do these things in every prayer offering before the Father in Yerushalem of Above: in every prayer offering of a new hodesh in its hodesh, and in every prayer offering of a Shabbat in its Shabbat. And when I open my eyes, going forth from my prayer chamber, what do you suppose I see round about me? I see the eyes, arms, hands, legs, and feet which I have put to death as the sacrifices which they are, according to my Master, so as to be pleasing to the Father and His Son by way of the Testimony of His Son in the Gospel accounts: for I am indeed a renewed creation, the old things are passed away, behold, all things have been renewed.



A simpleton who does despite to the Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts is simply a fool: for his Testimony is Spirit and Life, (John 6:63), and is likewise the renewed Spirit of the renewed Covenant foretold through Ezekiel the Prophet in Eze 11:19-20 and Eze 36:25-28, and therefore his Testimony is also the Spirit of Grace, (Zec 12:10, Heb 10:29). Testimony is spirit, whether for the good, or whether for the evil: as it is now there are two sons of perdition breathing out lies, through two uninformed people, attempting to sideline and water down the Testimony of the Master in this thread. The Gospel is to each in his or her own appointed times, and the time appointed of the Father, when a child becomes a tried and true son, is a day known only to the Father, (Gal 4:1-2).

Hebrews 10:35-39 KJV
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. [Hab 2:2-3 LXX]
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. [Hab 2:4 LXX]
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

One must first do the will of Elohim, and his or her faith must be tested just as Abraham in Gen 22.

1 Thessalonians 4:1-8 KJV
1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

Your apocalypse will not be televised: it's going to be private and individual, you and the Master, and this I know by experience and much study to confirm what actually happened to me in those days. You and I are of incredibly different mindsets, (lose the dispensational theology trap: it is deceiving you just as it did to me quite some time ago now).

I knew it would come to this at least I tried. Christ Fulfilled all requirements about the sacrificial laws. For this evident reason it cannot be as you claim, but you prefer to twist truth instead of the simplicity of it so be it.

 

[dak]

I knew it would come to this at least I tried. Christ Fulfilled all requirements about the sacrificial laws. For this evident reason it cannot be as you claim, but you prefer to twist truth instead of the simplicity of it so be it.

Yes, you tried, by opening up in your first post with a mouth and fingertips full of lashon hara. Have we ever spoken before? Who taught you that it is good to greet someone you've never spoken to before with an evil speaking little horn tongue that defiles the whole body and is set aflame by the fire of Gehenna? Are you not aware that murders and false witness come forth from the mouth because they have proceeded from the heart? And that those things defile a person? What do you suppose that defilement is?

You cannot see leprosy in the walls of your house if that passage isn't speaking of a literal house built with the hands of men: and you are the house, O man, according to the scripture, (see Isa 66:1-2 again, which of course Stephen also quotes in Acts 7), and sin is personified, and sin dwells in the flesh, which is likened to the outer bounds "commons" or "profane area" round about the outer perimeter of your house-body-temple.

Leviticus 14:33-36 KJV
33 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
34 When ye be come into the land of Canaan, which I give to you for a possession, and I put the plague of leprosy in a house of the land of your possession;
35 And he that owneth the house shall come and tell the priest, saying, It seemeth to me there is as it were a plague in the house:
36 Then the priest shall command that they empty the house, before the priest go into it to see the plague, that all that is in the house be not made unclean: and afterward the priest shall go in to see the house:

Don'tcha just love the KJV? "It seemeth to me".......

The reality is that you and your friends here cannot bring yourselves to believe that the Master interprets the true original meanings of the sacrifices in Mark 9:43-50, (filling to the full and renewing the Covenant), and Paul confirms that he believes the same way and serves the Torah of the sin offering at the end of Romans 7. No doubt the reason why the modern mainstream cannot accept such things that are indeed in the scripture is always the same: it is because people prefer to walk in the false doctrines taught to them by wolves in sheepskins calling themselves preachers and teachers of their herds in their churches.

Zechariah 11:4-17 KJV
4 Thus saith the LORD my God; Feed the flock of the slaughter; [haregah, that is cut off]
5 Whose possessors slay them, and hold themselves not guilty: and they that sell them say, Blessed be the LORD; for I am rich: and their own shepherds pity them not.
6 For I will no more pity the inhabitants of the land, saith the LORD: but, lo, I will deliver the men every one into his neighbour's hand, and into the hand of his king: and they shall smite the land, and out of their hand I will not deliver them.
7 And I will feed the flock of slaughter, even you, O poor of the flock. And I took unto me two staves; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Bands; and I fed the flock.
8 Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.
9 Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another.
10 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.
12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.
14 Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
15 And the LORD said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd.
16 For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.
17 Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

The luminary-lamp of the body is the eye: if therefore your eye be single, your whole body shall be full of light: but if your eye be evil, your whole body shall be full of darkness: if therefore the light that is in you be darkness, how great is that darkness! (Mat 6:22-23).

There are three wicked shepherds in Zec 11:8 which is quoted above: no doubt a false shepherd over the eye, another over the hand, and another over the foot that is always running swiftly into mischief. The final three verses of the passage are where one is headed if he or she does not cut off those evil shepherds and cast them out. This is internal and spiritual, it is not about literally physically chopping off physical bodily members, (please stop being ridiculous by insinuating that is what I meant in my discourse), and again, sin is personified and dwells in the flesh, in our members, (Rom 7).

Nice chatting.