Rapture ... soon?

[rwb]

Death reigned over "all," including babies, because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Period! Not "all except babies", but ALL! That can mean nothing less. Children are culpable for sin the moment that they draw their first breath, and are thus "accountable" for sin like every other human being that takes the breath of life. Thus, they are not "innocent" and they need a Saviour as much as you or I do.

I agree! Babies too are under the curse of death. We aren't called sinners when we commit sin, we sin because we are born to sin.

 

[rwb]

If you find yourself focused on a human or human beings you are already missing the target. We are not fighting a natural physical holy war today against humans like they did in the Old Testament. We are exclusively fighting a spiritual war in the heavenlies. We are not fighting with carnal power or human ingenuity. We are not fighting politicians and governments.

That's why our battle is not against flesh & blood, our battle is spiritual, where good shall always battle against evil.

 

[WPM]

That's why our battle is not against flesh & blood, our battle is spiritual, where good shall always battle against evil.

You are avoiding the issue. Angels are not humans! See the evidence above. Stop avoiding!

 

[WPM]

That's why our battle is not against flesh & blood, our battle is spiritual, where good shall always battle against evil.

2 Kings 19:35 tells us: “the angel of the LORD went out, and killed in the camp of the one hundred and eighty-five thousand; and when people arose early in the morning, there were the corpses—all dead.”

What human being in history slew 185,000 men in one night?

 

[rwb]

You are avoiding the issue. Angels are not humans! See the evidence above. Stop avoiding!

Paul, I NEVER said angels are humans! I said spirit beings work within the hearts and minds of humans. For those in unbelief the spirit of Satan works within them to bring about destruction. As we find in the creation account. For those who shall be saved spirit angels of God keep us until we are indwelt with the Spirit sent from Christ. Then we have the Spirit of Christ within us always!

 

[rwb]

2 Kings 19:35 tells us: “the angel of the LORD went out, and killed in the camp of the one hundred and eighty-five thousand; and when people arose early in the morning, there were the corpses—all dead.”

What human being in history slew 185,000 men in one night?

Your question is illogical to me, because I have never argued that angels of God were humans. That does take away from the fact that the Greek word angelos is translated 'angel' 'pastor' 'messenger' one who brings tidings.

 

[WPM]

Paul, I NEVER said angels are humans! I said spirit beings work within the hearts and minds of humans. For those in unbelief the spirit of Satan works within them to bring about destruction. As we find in the creation account. For those who shall be saved spirit angels of God keep us until we are indwelt with the Spirit sent from Christ. Then we have the Spirit of Christ within us always!

The only spirit (singular) within a believer is a human spirit regenerated and energized by the Spirit of God - no spirits (plural).

 

[WPM]

Your question is illogical to me, because I have never argued that angels of God were humans. That does take away from the fact that the Greek word angelos is translated 'angel' 'pastor' 'messenger' one who brings tidings.

So, if this is not a human, who or what is this angel? Where did it come from?

 

[rwb]

The only spirit (singular) within a believer is a human spirit regenerated and energized by the Spirit of God - no spirits (plural).

The angel spirits sent to minister to the heirs of salvation were not IN them, but WITH them until they received the Spirit from on high sent from Christ.

John 14:16-18 (KJV) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

 

[rwb]

So, if this is not a human, who or what is this angel? Where did it come from?

What passage of Scripture are you referring to?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Death reigned over "all," including babies, because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Period! Not "all except babies", but ALL!

Looks like you have taken a break from trying to symbolize or spiritualize all of scripture and have decided to be hyperliteral instead in this case. Understanding context is definitely not your strong suit. How about you explain to me how exactly a baby can sin. This should be good.

You noticeable said nothing in response to how I showed where Paul indicated that he did not become dead in sin until he became aware of sin through the law (Romans 7:9-11). Figures you wouldn't want to try to touch that, since it clearly contradicts your understanding of what sin is and how someone becomes dead in sin (separated from God).

That can mean nothing less. Children are culpable for sin the moment that they draw their first breath, and are thus "accountable" for sin like every other human being that takes the breath of life.

So, again, tell me what sins babies are capable of commiting exactly. I'll have to make sure I have some popcorn ready for when I read your response.

Thus, they are not "innocent" and they need a Saviour as much as you or I do.

What exactly are they guilty of? Give me a list of things that babies can be guilty of.

Romans 5:14

• "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

By one man came death, by one man must come life. Liability means accountability. Sure, children may not know certain things (neither do adults), and be naive (so are adults), but "innocent" they are NOT.

You don't have to repeat the same thing over and over again to me. What you need to do is show me exactly what sins a baby or mentally retarded adults (or whoever can't think rationally like most people can) can commit. Otherwise, I have no reason to believe anything you say about this.

And they never have been. For the spiritual corruption in our nature passed on by Adam causes sin that extends to every part of our soul and body, so that we are (even as babies) desperately wicked to a "righteous God."

You think babies are "desperately wicked". I can't even believe I'm having this ridiculous conversation. You don't live in reality.

In fact, on a baby's best day his righteousness is as filthy rags to a Holy God.

LOL. A baby is neither righteous nor wicked because they are incapable of reasoning and making decisions yet. You are completely delusional. It's amazing the kinds of nonsense that false doctrine can lead people to believe.

So a few misunderstood scriptures does not a doctrine make, but "all" scriptures taken in conjunction with all "other scriptures" in harmony one with the other.

Exactly what I say to you. It's too bad you don't even understand what you said here.

Meaning, children are sinners, wicked, and assuredly not little innocents. And to a Holy God they are equated to a bunch of little snakes.

Oh, really? I guess you've never read this then...

Matthew 19:13 Then little children were brought to Him that He might put His hands on them and pray, but the disciples rebuked them. 14 But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.” 15 And He laid His hands on them and departed from there.

Apparently, according to you, Jesus said that the kingdom of heaven is made up of "a bunch of little snakes". LOL. Unbelievable.

I realize that this issues that make you squirm,

LOL. Not at all. Not even close.

but I also realize that this is because Christians are still wrapped in a robe of flesh, that they still cling to the flesh, "knowing in part," not as God knows.

Yeah, whatever you say. You have no clue of what you're talking about. Absolutely none.

Psa 58:2-4
(2) Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
(3) The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
(4) Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

Have you never heard of hyperbole? Or do you think we should literally cut off our hands and feet and gouge out our eyes if they cause us to sin, as Jesus said to do? That passage is talking about the fact that we all inherit a sinful nature, but that does not mean we literally sin from birth and that we are "a bunch of little snakes" from birth. Again, as Paul said in Romans 7:9-11, he did not become dead in sin until he knew what sin was because of the law. You need to learn to take ALL of scripture into consideration before drawing conclusions from any given scripture passage.

Rom 3:10-13
(10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
(11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
(12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
(13) Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

Do you understand what God is saying?

Sure. Do you? Paul sums it up in Romans 3:23 by saying that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. But, again, a baby or anyone who does not understand what sin is cannot be accused of sinning. That's complete nonsense. The context is that all who are capable of understanding what sin is have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Paul didn't understand what sin was until it was revealed to him by the law and then he became dead in sin (separated from God because of his sin), as he said in Romans 7:9-11.

In God's eyes, man from the womb is as a poisonous asp or serpent to God. TO GOD! Not to you!

Wrong. That is not what it says. Tell me exactly why God would think that of a baby or little child? You know, like the little children that Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is made up of? You have a very different perspective of babies and young children than Jesus/God has, and it's sad. You should want to have the same perspective as Him instead.

Next!

Next bit of nonsense from you, you mean? LOL.

Who is wrong? You or God?

You.

Joh 6:70-71
(70) Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
(71) He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

In God's eye, Judas "IS" the devil because he has the spirt of disobedience.

I thought you said Cain is the devil? Now, you're saying Judas is the devil? Make up your mind, man! LOL.

 

[WPM]

The angel spirits sent to minister to the heirs of salvation were not IN them, but WITH them until they received the Spirit from on high sent from Christ.

John 14:16-18 (KJV) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

This is as clear as mud. I can see why you are both so defensive and evasive.

What are these spirits? Are they invisible? Are they heavenly agents? Are they human spirits? The Spirit of God is NOT plural, but one.

 

[WPM]

What passage of Scripture are you referring to?

2 Kings 19:35 tells us: “the angel of the LORD went out, and killed in the camp of the one hundred and eighty-five thousand; and when people arose early in the morning, there were the corpses—all dead.”

 

[WPM]

That's why our battle is not against flesh & blood, our battle is spiritual, where good shall always battle against evil.

Ephesians 6:12: “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities [Gr. archē or chief or principal rulers], against powers [Gr. exousia or authorities], against the rulers of the darkness of this world [Gr. kosmokratōr ho skotos toutou aiōn or rulers of the obscurity of this age], against spiritual wickedness in high places [Gr. pneumatikos ponēria en epouranios or vile or malevolent spirts on high].”

• Principalities [Gr. archē or chief or principal rulers] – those who hold the highest and loftiest position of rank and authority. They oversee the demonic assaults.
• Powers [Gr. exousia or authorities] – those who are under Satan’s delegated authority
• The rulers of the darkness of this world [Gr. kosmokratōr ho skotos toutou aiōn or rulers of the obscurity of this age]. Kosmokratōr is the joining of 2 Greek words kosmos and kratos. The word kosmos denotes order or arrangement, whereas the word kratos has to do with raw power.
• Spiritual wickedness in high places [Gr. pneumatikos ponēria en epouranios or vile or malevolent spirts on high].

So, who exactly are these if they are not human?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I stated this in a way that even a small child could understand.

No, you did not, but nice insult there. You're implying that I can't understand something even a small child could understand. Why the insult? You don't need to be offended that I didn't understand what you said. Why can't you just be gracious enough to clarify what you were saying instead of assuming that I'm being stupid for not understanding what you said?

Isn't the truth that because you are convinced that Satan was created an angel of God and became this evil Satan the reason you refuse to receive what I have plainly stated?

It wasn't plainly stated as far as I'm concerned. It might be plainly stated to you, but it's not to me. It seems that you are somehow offended that I didn't understand what you said. Why? How about just explaining it to me instead of being offended that someone didn't understand something you said?

 

[rwb]

This is as clear as mud. I can see why you are both so defensive and evasive.

What are these spirits? Are they invisible? Are they heavenly agents? Are they human spirits? The Spirit of God is NOT plural, but one.

The angels [plural] of God are ministering spirits. The way I understand these spirit beings and how they work for heirs of salvation is by making sure we do not die before we are saved by the Spirit [singular] that is given to be within the hearts and minds of every man who shall be born again. Remember we are ordained unto eternal life, but we are not eternally saved until we believe by grace through faith through the power of the Word and Spirit of Christ in us. This understanding gives validity to the doctrine of 'guardian angels.' How do they work in our lives in ways we can't begin to fathom, but they keep us from death until we are eternally saved.

Hebrews 1:4-7 (KJV) Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Hebrews 1:13-14 (KJV) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

 

[rwb]

2 Kings 19:35 tells us: “the angel of the LORD went out, and killed in the camp of the one hundred and eighty-five thousand; and when people arose early in the morning, there were the corpses—all dead.”

I believe the angel of the LORD is Christ.

 

[rwb]

Ephesians 6:12: “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities [Gr. archē or chief or principal rulers], against powers [Gr. exousia or authorities], against the rulers of the darkness of this world [Gr. kosmokratōr ho skotos toutou aiōn or rulers of the obscurity of this age], against spiritual wickedness in high places [Gr. pneumatikos ponēria en epouranios or vile or malevolent spirts on high].”

• Principalities [Gr. archē or chief or principal rulers] – those who hold the highest and loftiest position of rank and authority. They oversee the demonic assaults.
• Powers [Gr. exousia or authorities] – those who are under Satan’s delegated authority
• The rulers of the darkness of this world [Gr. kosmokratōr ho skotos toutou aiōn or rulers of the obscurity of this age]. Kosmokratōr is the joining of 2 Greek words kosmos and kratos. The word kosmos denotes order or arrangement, whereas the word kratos has to do with raw power.
• Spiritual wickedness in high places [Gr. pneumatikos ponēria en epouranios or vile or malevolent spirts on high].

So, who exactly are these if they are not human?

Powers of darkness, evil spirits, working through the hearts and minds of humans.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What I've sensed in this thread are some, who are provoking and slandering not only what TS is saying, but also making charges against his character.

I know you're talking about me since I'm the only other one besides WPM talking to him. Tell me exactly how I'm slandering him. Be specific.

This goes too far!

Are you somehow not aware that TS has thrown out MANY insults in his posts on this forum? Yet, you are quick to defend him while accusing me of slandering him? I'm sure he can handle the way I talk to him since he talks the same way, so why should you worry about it? Do you seem him complaining about how I talk to him? No, you don't. So, don't worry about it.

Early on the thought was revealed that he has learned from Tony Warren, and one even went so far (if memory serves me) as to say TW is an apostate.

Are you afraid to refer to me by name? I'm the only one who said anything to him about Tony Warren and I did NOT say that TW is an apostate. It's a fact that he gets a lot of his ideas from Tony Warren. He won't deny that. He gave links to Tony Warren's articles when I've talked to him before about where he was getting his understanding of things from.

For that cause it is assumed nothing TS has to say could possibly be truth. I too have learned a great deal from the articles written by TW and many others at Mountain Retreat, and like TS, I also confirm through the Word of God myself whether what I have read aligns with the Bible.

Tony Warren is an Amil like TribulationSigns but they seem to spiritualize as much scripture as they possibly can. They turn the 70th week into a 2,000+ year time period and act as if Jesus didn't prophesy at all about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple buildings in 70 AD and they deny the existence of angels, including Satan and so on. I'm not saying everything they teach is false, but just beware that they do teach some things that are false.

There is great misunderstanding over the doctrine of angels and demonic spirits. Much of which comes through tradition, and misapplying verses spoken of MAN as being about the fall of Satan.

Let's just cut to the chase here and make sure we're clear on where you stand regarding angels and demons. Do you believe that the devil, Satan, is a real evil spirit being who literally talked to God about Job and literally tried to tempt Jesus in the wilderness and so on? Do you believe in the existence of invisible (to us) spirit beings called angels with good angels being God's messengers and servants who interact with Him in heaven and fallen angels being those who rebelled against God and left their first estate, as Jude 6 says? Do you believe in the existence of demons who are able to possess people and oppress people, such as the demon-possessed man who said his name was "Legion, for we are many", implying that he had many demons inside of him who Jesus cast out into the nearby swine at their request?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Powers of darkness, evil spirits, working through the hearts and minds of humans.

What do you mean by this exactly? How do you define "powers of darkness" and "evil spirits"? Do you believe evil spirits are evil spirit beings who try to influence and deceive the hearts and minds of humans?