Rapture ... soon?

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why don't you tell me what you think these angels are, and where they are located?

He asked you first, so you should answer the question first. That's how discussions work. Does this response you gave mean you don't know who those angels are and where they are located? If so, just say so. Maybe you just haven't considered that passage before. That's fine. But, imagine if every time we were asked a question on this forum we told the person asking it to answer it first. That's not reasonable.

 

[WPM]

What wild claims would that be? Prove my doctrine to be new and unorthodox! Your position is that Satan was a created angel of God who rebelled against God and became the evil spirit called Satan. I haven't avoided anything! Prove your doctrine from the Word of God, and prove also from the Word of God where I have not presented truth from Scripture. Whose avoiding?

You already admitted what we are promoting is "the traditional understanding, handed down through the ages."

You guys have invented some doctrine (that obviously TW taught you) that you cannot defend. You have been left holding the baby.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If you don't know from the Word of God, I doubt you would learn from me.

What kind of response is this? I believe I do know what those terms mean. I wasn't asking you those questions to find out what the Word of God says as if I need you to teach me. I was asking you what you think they mean in order to see what your understanding of those terms is.

 

[WPM]

What kind of response is this? I believe I do know what those terms mean. I wasn't asking you those questions to find out what the Word of God says as if I need you to teach me. I was asking you what you think they mean in order to see what your understanding of those terms is.

They are defensive and evasive because they are promoting error. They cannot even tell us what they believe. They cannot answer simple questions. They are answering questions with questions.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What wild claims would that be? Prove my doctrine to be new and unorthodox! Your position is that Satan was a created angel of God who rebelled against God and became the evil spirit called Satan. I haven't avoided anything! Prove your doctrine from the Word of God, and prove also from the Word of God where I have not presented truth from Scripture. Whose avoiding?

You seem to not want to make any effort to clarify what you believe for some reason. When someone questions you on something you act like we're being stupid for not having a clear understanding of what you believe. What is up with that? There's nothing wrong with us trying to get clarification of what you believe. Would you rather we just make false assumptions instead, like so many people here do?

Anyway, I think you believe that Satan is an evil spirit being. Is that correct? But, what you deny is that he was previously a good angel, so to speak, who rebelled against God? And you deny that any of his angels (demons) were previously good angels who rebelled. Is that accurate? If so, how do you interpret this verse...

Jude 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Who do you think these angels are and what do you think was "their first estate" that they didn't keep and what do you think is "their own habitation" that they left?

 

[PinSeeker]

Still, you have to make some huge leaps of the imagination to insert multiple returns of the Lord because this forces multiple end-time resurrections. Pre-trib is a contrived myth.

Right, it's just goofy, really. <smile>

So, it is what it is, but to disparage or denigrate fellow Christians for believing it is... really bad (terribly sinful)... and to be self-righteous to any degree for not falling for it is also really bad (terribly sinful)... and that's my point.

To whoever is doing it... and you know who you are... stop it. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

...they are promoting error.

This is pretty mild compared to other things that have been said, but come on, man.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[shepherdsword]

Right, it's just goofy, really. <smile>

So, it is what it is, but to disparage or denigrate fellow Christians for believing it is... really bad (terribly sinful)... and to be self-righteous to any degree for not falling for it is also really bad (terribly sinful)... and that's my point.

To whoever is doing it... and you know who you are... stop it. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

Yeah, I confess there are times when my zeal for the truth (or what I see as truth) gets the better of me. This often results in some spicy shade throwing remarks that would better left unsaid. However, I take my lumps as they come as well....lol

 

[PinSeeker]

Yeah, I confess there are times when my zeal for the truth (or what I see as truth) gets the better of me. This often results in some spicy shade throwing remarks that would better left unsaid. However, I take my lumps as they come as well....lol

Yeah, this is not an original thought, but... well, I seem to remember something about returning evil for evil, and, you know, not doing it...<smile>

Grace and peace!

 

[shepherdsword]

Yeah, this is not an original thought, but... well, I seem to remember something about returning evil for evil, and, you know, not doing it...<smile>

Grace and peace!

I'll remind John not to call those Pharisees a brood of Vipers! that rascal!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is pretty mild compared to other things that have been said, but come on, man.

Grace and peace to you.

Well, you called pre-trib "goofy" and I wouldn't be surprised if some pre-tribs are offended by that (not that they should be). Anyway, I appreciate your efforts to calm people down. You may not believe that I'm being sincere about that, but I am.

 

[WPM]

This is pretty mild compared to other things that have been said, but come on, man.

Grace and peace to you.

So, what would you prefer me to use to describe that which denies that Satan and demons are real entities - goofy?

 

[marks]

No pejoratives are necessary. What about that??

 

[Behold]

Well, you called pre-trib "goofy" and I wouldn't be surprised if some pre-tribs are offended by that (not that they should be). Anyway, I appreciate your efforts to calm people down. You may not believe that I'm being sincere about that, but I am.

Here is the thing...

If a person does not want to Meet Jesus in the (pre-trib) Rapture and get their New Body and enter the final "conformed into the image of Christ'....then they should stay down here, and go through the Trib and Great Trib, and try to Matt 24 "endure to the end" (including being marytr'd if they want to go to Heaven.

Its all up to you..... Reader.
Have it your way..and so you shall.

 

[WPM]

Here is the thing...

If a person does not want to Meet Jesus in the (pre-trib) Rapture and get their New Body and enter the final "conformed into the image of Christ'....then they should stay down here, and go through the Trib and Great Trib, and try to Matt 24 "endure to the end" (including being marytr'd if they want to go to Heaven.

Its all up to you..... Reader.
Have it your way..and so you shall.

Show us any Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by a tribulation period of any length, followed by a third coming of the Lord?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here is the thing...

If a person does not want to Meet Jesus in the (pre-trib) Rapture and get their New Body and enter the final "conformed into the image of Christ'....then they should stay down here,

No one here doesn't want that. This kind of post isn't helpful at all and contributes nothing of substance to the discussion.

and go through the Trib and Great Trib, and try to Matt 24 "endure to the end" (including being marytr'd if they want to go to Heaven.

Are you afraid of going through tribulation and enduring to the end? Have you never went through tribulation and have you never been persecuted? If so, you're doing something wrong.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Its all up to you..... Reader.
Have it your way..and so you shall.

Oh, is that right? We get to choose whether we want to be part of the rapture or not and it's not determined based on whether someone is in Christ or not? Where do you see that taught in scripture?

 

[TribulationSigns]

I think we get a clearer picture of angels when we think of them as "messengers" of God that can be spirit or human. The context helps us to determine which. John the Baptist for instance was a messenger of God. The messenger of Satan was sent to fight against Paul. Both instances the word 'messenger' is translated from the Greek word angelos/angel. These are both spirit beings using humans to bring about their purposes.

A messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication, a pastor:—angel, messenger.

Luke 7:27 (KJV) This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger (angelos) before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

2 Corinthians 12:7 (KJV) And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger (angelos) of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Indeed!

Since the same word you mentioned is an angel is the Greek [angelos], and simply meant, means, and will mean “messenger,” this is an easy task. For example, consider that John the Baptist is called an [angelos] sent by God in Matthew 11:10.

Matthew 11:10-11

• "For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
• Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

If it hadn't been so "obviously" clear this was John the Baptist, the translators would have most assuredly changed this word to an angel as well. Because they decided based upon what they felt was a supernatural being, and "NOT" by translating the word accurately. However, the [angelos] of God sent to go before Christ is not a created begin that they called, "angel" of God sent to go before man any more than [angelos] the message in Revelation 1:20 was sent to! Why would John need to correct and instruct an angel? It's not an literal angel but the messengers of God's church that needed correcting and instructing. The passage I gave you of John the Baptist is the same [angelos] or messenger of God--a man. They asked for one place, I gave them one place, but I'm sure it will be insufficient to prove to them [angelos] does not mean angel, but messenger. Nevertheless, Biblical facts are facts, not personal opinions. Even if the messenger of God "was" in fact an angel, the actual word would still not "mean" angel. Selah.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You are avoiding the issue. Angels are not humans! See the evidence above. Stop avoiding!

Angels Messengers are not either God or humans!

This is the only unadulterated, undeniable, unassailable, God-authored truth that this article puts forth--that the word "transliterated" and anglicized as "angels, is actually the word messengers. ...further, it's not derived (formed or developed from something else) from the Greek word messenger, it is the Greek word, messenger! That ἄγγελος is the Greek word Messenger shouldn't even be in debate! And it is ONLY because there are those who wish it to mean some extrabiblical entity that the word of God doesn't speak about! There will always be some debate "because of the hardness of the heart" of many who can look at a tree and claim that it isn't wood. Truly, truly, that is the nature of the delusion of man.

Proverbs 26:16

• "The sluggard is wiser in his own conceit than seven men that can render a reason."

The sluggard's course is foolish and ruinous because he thinks so highly of himself as to be arrogant, pompous proud in his own conceit that he sees himself as so much wiser than those who can offer a sound reason. He is therefore inclined to despise the sound reasoning and sagacious counsels of the wise. Showing again that those who don't think or seek counsel of the Lord are left ignorant of their ignorance. Their vanity, ego, and conceit rule them instead of God. The word "transliterated" angel (since there is no word meaning angel in Scripture) is a direct from the Greek word "messenger." This they usually do not deny because it is hard for them to kick against the pricks, while in practice they actually do deny it.

Yep!

 

[WPM]

Indeed!

Since the same word you mentioned is an angel is the Greek [angelos], and simply meant, means, and will mean “messenger,” this is an easy task. For example, consider that John the Baptist is called an [angelos] sent by God in Matthew 11:10.

Matthew 11:10-11

• "For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
• Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

If it hadn't been so "obviously" clear this was John the Baptist, the translators would have most assuredly changed this word to an angel as well. Because they decided based upon what they felt was a supernatural being, and "NOT" by translating the word accurately. However, the [angelos] of God sent to go before Christ is not a created begin that they called, "angel" of God sent to go before man any more than [angelos] the message in Revelation 1:20 was sent to! Why would John need to correct and instruct an angel? It's not an literal angel but the messengers of God's church that needed correcting and instructing. The passage I gave you of John the Baptist is the same [angelos] or messenger of God--a man. They asked for one place, I gave them one place, but I'm sure it will be insufficient to prove to them [angelos] does not mean angel, but messenger. Nevertheless, Biblical facts are facts, not personal opinions. Even if the messenger of God "was" in fact an angel, the actual word would still not "mean" angel. Selah.

So,

• Is Satan a supernatural being? Is he an evil angel? Is he an entity separate from man? Or, is he just an influence? Or, is Satan abstract "conscience" or the innate "evil spirit" of unregenerate man?
• Are demons spirits? Are they invisible? Are they heavenly agents? Are they human spirits?

 

[WPM]

Angels Messengers are not either God or humans!

This is the only unadulterated, undeniable, unassailable, God-authored truth that this article puts forth--that the word "transliterated" and anglicized as "angels, is actually the word messengers. ...further, it's not derived (formed or developed from something else) from the Greek word messenger, it is the Greek word, messenger! That ἄγγελος is the Greek word Messenger shouldn't even be in debate! And it is ONLY because there are those who wish it to mean some extrabiblical entity that the word of God doesn't speak about! There will always be some debate "because of the hardness of the heart" of many who can look at a tree and claim that it isn't wood. Truly, truly, that is the nature of the delusion of man.

Proverbs 26:16

• "The sluggard is wiser in his own conceit than seven men that can render a reason."

The sluggard's course is foolish and ruinous because he thinks so highly of himself as to be arrogant, pompous proud in his own conceit that he sees himself as so much wiser than those who can offer a sound reason. He is therefore inclined to despise the sound reasoning and sagacious counsels of the wise. Showing again that those who don't think or seek counsel of the Lord are left ignorant of their ignorance. Their vanity, ego, and conceit rule them instead of God. The word "transliterated" angel (since there is no word meaning angel in Scripture) is a direct from the Greek word "messenger." This they usually do not deny because it is hard for them to kick against the pricks, while in practice they actually do deny it.

Yep!

Ephesians 6:12: “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities [Gr. archē or chief or principal rulers], against powers [Gr. exousia or authorities], against the rulers of the darkness of this world [Gr. kosmokratōr ho skotos toutou aiōn or rulers of the obscurity of this age], against spiritual wickedness in high places [Gr. pneumatikos ponēria en epouranios or vile or malevolent spirts on high].”

• Principalities [Gr. archē or chief or principal rulers] – those who hold the highest and loftiest position of rank and authority. They oversee the demonic assaults.
• Powers [Gr. exousia or authorities] – those who are under Satan’s delegated authority
• The rulers of the darkness of this world [Gr. kosmokratōr ho skotos toutou aiōn or rulers of the obscurity of this age]. Kosmokratōr is the joining of 2 Greek words kosmos and kratos. The word kosmos denotes order or arrangement, whereas the word kratos has to do with raw power.
• Spiritual wickedness in high places [Gr. pneumatikos ponēria en epouranios or vile or malevolent spirts on high].

So, who exactly are these if they are not human?

Matt 26:52-53

52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Who were these angels? Where were they located?

Mat 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
Mat 28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
Mat 28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
Mat 28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.
Mat 28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

Who was this angel? Where was it from? Was is a visible being?

In 2 Kings 6 the king of Syria prepared an impressive army for the purpose of nullifying Elisha.

2 Kings 6:

15 And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do?

2 Kings 6:16 And he (Elisha) answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.

Please see: these 2 men are looking at the same scene but one is seeing things from an earthly perspective (the servant), the other from a heavenly perspective (Elisha). Evidently, they were not in the same place with God. Elisha’s servant was too attached to the natural realm, whereas Elisha was connected to the spiritual.

2 Kings 6:17And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

Are these real angels? Are they real entities distinct to man? Were they heavenly beings? Were these visible beings? Or, where these figments of these men's imaginations?