WAS JESUS WRONG?

[The PuP]

Pup will have to answer for himself, but if I am rightly understanding he is saying the kingdom of God came with power when Christ resurrected from the grave. Certainly, the majority of those standing there would not have physically died before coming to see and understand this and to know it meant the Kingdom of God has come with power even over death.

No, the KOG did not come WHEN Jesus was resurrected. Nor even when he ascended. But he was...

Rom 1:4 KJV And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

... declared [This day have I begotten thee] to be the son of God WITH POWER, by his resurrection ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT OF HOLINESS! Without holiness no man can see the Lord. He was declared to be the "heir of all things (Heb 1:2)" when he ascended to the Father later on the same day of his resurrection.

Jesus rose/anistemi to be the rightful heir of all things, when he ascended to the Father on resurrection day.

Eph 4:9-10 KJV 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

The ascension referred to here in Eph 4 is referring to him being endued with all power, having the authority to give gifts unto men... gifts of the holy ghost!... apostles, prophets, etc. And the descension herein described in that same passage, (think of the corollary thought of this ascension) is when Christ humbled himself in becoming a man.

Phi 2:7-8 KJV 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Phi 2:9 KJV Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

He humbled himself when he descended to earth in human form. He was highly exalted when he ascended to heaven.

Christ "rose" to his exalted position when he ascended to heaven on resurrection day. But the KOG did not come at that time. He was only made to be the appointed heir of all things. The world to come has not been put into the subjection of angels, but unto the Son.

Heb 1:3-6 KJV 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my SON, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he BRINGETH in the firstbegotte INTO the WORLD, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Heb 2:5 KJV For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

Just before the event of the transfiguration, Jesus said that some would "experience with the senses" [SEEN] the coming of the kingdom. The word "seen" is the word eido, [often translated as the word know, and sometimes as "see(n)"] and means to experience with one of the 5 senses. It is the root word of the word HADES. Which literally means the UNSEEN realm. Unseen, as in not experienced by the senses (cf. Lazarus and the rich man).

Jesus said that some would experience the KOG before they were to die. And they did... on the mount of Transfiguration. They call it the Mt. Of Transfiguration because Jesus was transfigured before them into his body of immortality. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the KOG. But mortals must first put on immortality and corruptibles must put on incorruption. No more dying to the living and death is swallowed up in victory for those who have already died... those corrupted by death!

Jesus said, "Tell no man what you have experienced (seen) until the son of man has ascended (anistemi) from the dead." The KOG comes with the ascension of the dead in Christ... the dead in Christ shall rise/ anistemi first!

Jesus was declared to be the son of God with power when he ascended carrying his holiness [AS A RESURRECTED MAN] to the Father... after his resurrection!

Be Blessed
The PuP

 

[complete]

[Mark 9:1 KJV] 1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

There are some who use this verse to say Jesus was mistaken. He said there would be some standing there with him who would not die till they saw the kingdom on earth. Jesus was wrong, the Bible has errors, since those standing there with Jesus have died and the kingdom is yet to come.

Reading scripture superficially, and not realizing that our obvious understanding in reading may be wrong can lead to rashly accusing scripture of error.

Jesus was not mistaken, Jesus was speaking to the people, and the disciples, and said there be some of them that stand here, not at that time, but in a future time. In the future there would be people standing in that exact spot who would be alive to see the coming of the kingdom. Jesus was not saying this about those standing with him.

[Mark 9:2 KJV] 2 And after six days Jesus taketh [with him] Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them..............This passage is called "the transfiguration", and is used to explain Mark 9:1. They say that when the disciples saw Jesus transfigured it fulfilled Jesus saying they would see him in the power of his coming.
First of all, seeing the glory, and the majesty of Jesus, is not seeing the kingdom on earth. This passage is used to explain Mark 9:1 because of it's proximity to verse 1 as the next event.
Secondly, Peter says they were eyewitnesses of his majesty as well, not of his kingdom...............[2Peter 1:16-18 KJV] 16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.............In verse 16 Peter does say he made known the power and coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, but did not say it was by his transfiguration.

[Mark 9:9-10 KJV] 9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. 10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean..................what struck me was, in verse 10, they didn't know what the resurrection of Christ meant. How could, as some say, there is only one gospel found in the Bible, and Peter and the eleven preached it. How could they preach the resurrection for our salvation if they didn't know what it meant?

'Repent ye therefore, and be converted,
that your sins may be blotted out,
when the times of refreshing shall come
from the presence of the Lord;
And He shall send Jesus Christ,
which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive
until the times of restitution of all things,
which God hath spoken
by the mouth of all His holy prophets
since the world began.'
(Act 3:19-21)

Hello @Doug,

If the nation of Israel had come to repentance at the preaching of Peter in Acts 3, then the Lord Jesus Christ would have returned. So the possibility of those hearing the Lord's words on that day also witnessing his coming again in power and great glory, was very much a possibility.

All through the Acts period in the epistles written during that time, and Luke's record of the events that took place during that period of probation for Israel, the door was open for them to repent: and so the expectation was of the Lord's return. Only at the final rejection by the Jews of the diaspora of their Messiah and King, and their departure into the darkness of unbelief at Acts 28, closed the door and brought in the mystery made known by Paul in the prison epistles, and the creation of the Church which is the Body of Christ.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[rwb]

No, the KOG did not come WHEN Jesus was resurrected. Nor even when he ascended. But he was...

Rom 1:4 KJV And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

... declared [This day have I begotten thee] to be the son of God WITH POWER, by his resurrection ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT OF HOLINESS! Without holiness no man can see the Lord. He was declared to be the "heir of all things (Heb 1:2)" when he ascended to the Father later on the same day of his resurrection.

Jesus rose/anistemi to be the rightful heir of all things, when he ascended to the Father on resurrection day.

Eph 4:9-10 KJV 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

The ascension referred to here in Eph 4 is referring to him being endued with all power, having the authority to give gifts unto men... gifts of the holy ghost!... apostles, prophets, etc. And the descension herein described in that same passage, (think of the corollary thought of this ascension) is when Christ humbled himself in becoming a man.

Phi 2:7-8 KJV 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Phi 2:9 KJV Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

He humbled himself when he descended to earth in human form. He was highly exalted when he ascended to heaven.

Christ "rose" to his exalted position when he ascended to heaven on resurrection day. But the KOG did not come at that time. He was only made to be the appointed heir of all things. The world to come has not been put into the subjection of angels, but unto the Son.

Heb 1:3-6 KJV 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my SON, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he BRINGETH in the firstbegotte INTO the WORLD, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Heb 2:5 KJV For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

Just before the event of the transfiguration, Jesus said that some would "experience with the senses" [SEEN] the coming of the kingdom. The word "seen" is the word eido, [often translated as the word know, and sometimes as "see(n)"] and means to experience with one of the 5 senses. It is the root word of the word HADES. Which literally means the UNSEEN realm. Unseen, as in not experienced by the senses (cf. Lazarus and the rich man).

Jesus said that some would experience the KOG before they were to die. And they did... on the mount of Transfiguration. They call it the Mt. Of Transfiguration because Jesus was transfigured before them into his body of immortality. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the KOG. But mortals must first put on immortality and corruptibles must put on incorruption. No more dying to the living and death is swallowed up in victory for those who have already died... those corrupted by death!

Jesus said, "Tell no man what you have experienced (seen) until the son of man has ascended (anistemi) from the dead." The KOG comes with the ascension of the dead in Christ... the dead in Christ shall rise/ anistemi first!

Jesus was declared to be the son of God with power when he ascended carrying his holiness [AS A RESURRECTED MAN] to the Father... after his resurrection!

Be Blessed
The PuP

Greetings The Pup,

You show excellent understanding of the Kingdom of God. When you say that Christ did not come with His Kingdom when He came to earth a man, I cannot accept that. Because the Word, spoken by Christ, tells us that Christ did indeed come to this world as man with the Kingdom. He tells us that by casting out devils is evidence the Kingdom of God has come.

Luke 11:20 (KJV) But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

Not only does Christ prove through His power to cast out devils/demons that the Kingdom of God has come, but He also speaks to us of the way we can both know (see) His Kingdom and enter into His Kingdom when we are born again of His Spirit.

John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5-7 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

To further illustrate for us that He came with the Kingdom of God in heaven He explains how His Kingdom is not of this world, cannot be visibly seen, for the Kingdom of God is not a physical Kingdom but a spiritual Kingdom that is within whosoever believes in Him. It is by grace through the power of the Holy Spirit that we enter spiritually into the Kingdom of God. Now His Kingdom is not from the earth, not physical, but He came to be the King in the Kingdom of God, this was the purpose of His coming, that He would bear witness unto the truth. This is how the Kingdom of God is both near and coming, it is near for those who hear the words of truth and through the Spirit sent from Christ enter spiritually into the Kingdom of God. And the Kingdom of God is also coming for all those of the future who would also hear the truth, believe on Christ and be eternally saved.

John 18:36-37 (KJV) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

We understand the Kingdom of God that came with Christ to earth is not physical because it cannot be observed with natural sight because the Kingdom of God is within you. His Kingdom is not now physically upon this earth, and we should not believe those who say it is. The Kingdom of God we look for now in this age of time is the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven that is being built and shall first be complete in heaven before the Kingdom of God comes down to the New Earth when the last person to be saved has understood and entered into Christ's Kingdom through the Spirit of Christ in you.

Luke 17:20-21 (KJV) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

You be blessed as well!

 

[The PuP]

Greetings The Pup,

You show excellent understanding of the Kingdom of God. When you say that Christ did not come with His Kingdom when He came to earth a man, I cannot accept that. Because the Word, spoken by Christ, tells us that Christ did indeed come to this world as man with the Kingdom. He tells us that by casting out devils is evidence the Kingdom of God has come.

Luke 11:20 (KJV) But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

Not only does Christ prove through His power to cast out devils/demons that the Kingdom of God has come, but He also speaks to us of the way we can both know (see) His Kingdom and enter into His Kingdom when we are born again of His Spirit.

John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5-7 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

To further illustrate for us that He came with the Kingdom of God in heaven He explains how His Kingdom is not of this world, cannot be visibly seen, for the Kingdom of God is not a physical Kingdom but a spiritual Kingdom that is within whosoever believes in Him. It is by grace through the power of the Holy Spirit that we enter spiritually into the Kingdom of God. Now His Kingdom is not from the earth, not physical, but He came to be the King in the Kingdom of God, this was the purpose of His coming, that He would bear witness unto the truth. This is how the Kingdom of God is both near and coming, it is near for those who hear the words of truth and through the Spirit sent from Christ enter spiritually into the Kingdom of God. And the Kingdom of God is also coming for all those of the future who would also hear the truth, believe on Christ and be eternally saved.

John 18:36-37 (KJV) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

We understand the Kingdom of God that came with Christ to earth is not physical because it cannot be observed with natural sight because the Kingdom of God is within you. His Kingdom is not now physically upon this earth, and we should not believe those who say it is. The Kingdom of God we look for now in this age of time is the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven that is being built and shall first be complete in heaven before the Kingdom of God comes down to the New Earth when the last person to be saved has understood and entered into Christ's Kingdom through the Spirit of Christ in you.

Luke 17:20-21 (KJV) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

You be blessed as well!

Luk 19:11-27 KJV 11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. 14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. 15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. 17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. 18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. 19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities. 20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: 21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow. 22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: 23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury? 24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds. 25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.) 26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

2Co 5:10 KJV For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

2Ti 4:1 KJV I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Be Blessed
The PuP

 

[rwb]

Luk 19:11-27 KJV 11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. 14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. 15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. 17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. 18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. 19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities. 20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: 21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow. 22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: 23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury? 24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds. 25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.) 26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

2Co 5:10 KJV For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

2Ti 4:1 KJV I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Be Blessed
The PuP

The Pup

Why did Christ speak this parable? Isn't it because the Jews were expecting the Messiah/Saviour to come to this earth in a material/physical Kingdom like that of King David? The parable speaks of those who remain in hardness and unbelief, so Christ spoke this parable that they might come to understand the Kingdom of God He came to earth with is NOT physical, nor is it now of this earth.

When Christ came with the spiritual Kingdom of God, it was yet to be complete. Christ ushered in the Kingdom and then instructed His Church to go out unto all the nations of the world preaching the gospel of the Kingdom of God so the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven would be complete as people throughout the earth hear the message and many of them by grace through faith will believe in Christ, and be eternally saved. Then Christ shall come again when the Kingdom of God is complete to usher in a new age on the new earth when the Kingdom of God in heaven shall come down from heaven and all who are in His Kingdom shall be changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible to live with Christ forever.

The parable calls us to labor for the Kingdom of God by using the gifts (talents) that God has endowed us with. In this we have His blessed assurance that He shall build His Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Again, you also be blessed!

 

[Nancy]

Thanks Nancy.
Very kind of you.

In my PDF write-up, my "Changed Doctrine #5,"
I reference how Modern Bibles make it appear as though Jesus sins in four different ways.

Here’s the breakdown:

Four Places Where Modern Bibles Make It Appear That Jesus Sins:​

1. Matthew 5:22 → Jesus Appears to be Angry Without A Cause (Thereby Violating God's Word)
   → Modern Versions remove “without a cause”, which makes any anger seem sinful.
   → But Jesus was righteously angry in Mark 3:5, meaning this change falsely implies that Jesus sinned by showing anger.
   → The KJV clarifies: anger without a cause is the sin.
2. Titus 3:10 → Jesus Appears Divisive (by Which the Modern Bible Says We are to Reject a Divisive Man)
   → Modern Bibles say “reject a divisive man” or “have nothing to do with such a person.”
   → Yet Jesus Himself said, “I came not to bring peace, but division” (Luke 12:51).
   → This creates the appearance that Jesus violated His own command, while the KJV’s “heretick” refers to a false teacher, not someone who causes division for truth’s sake.
3. John 7:8 → Jesus Appears to Lie
   → By removing “yet”, Modern Translations make it sound like Jesus said He wouldn’t go to the feast but then went anyway.
   → The KJV preserves “yet”, showing He meant He would go later — maintaining His honesty and divine integrity.
4. Zechariah 13:6 (Living Bible) → Jesus Appears to Brawl
   → The TLB says, “Oh, these I got when I was in a brawl at my friend’s house.”
   → This corrupt paraphrase portrays the prophecy of Christ’s wounds as the result of a fight, mocking the suffering He endured for humanity.
   → The KJV rightly shows these are the wounds received in the house of His friends — a prophecy fulfilled at Calvary.

I just released yesterday the update to bring the number of changed doctrines in Modern Bibles to 77.
If anyone is interested here, they can check out that free PDF at my new website, www.affectionsabove.com

Praise God for His perfect Word.
The Lord is so good to us.


....

I love your stuff BH, good to see you on and, thanks for the link!
Much love in Christ brother!

 

[Doug]

That is not how it works. These historians were not Christians (except of Eusebius) and their goal was not to map complete Mt 24 verse by verse to the events or to explain possible symbolism in the chapter. That is your work you need to do, if you wish.

For me, their accounts are a great support for the 70 AD view. No other view has a similar level of independent historical support.

All I can say is it makes no difference if they were Christians, they were recording historical events. Josephus did record the crucifixion even though he wasnt a Christian.

You saying their goal was not to map out Matthew 24, but how could they fail to record such momentous events as found in verses 29-30

As far as me I dont rely on extrabiblical sources, especially when historians dispute the authenticity of some works

 

[HealthyShape]

All I can say is it makes no difference if they were Christians, they were recording historical events. Josephus did record the crucifixion even though he wasnt a Christian.

You saying their goal was not to map out Matthew 24, but how could they fail to record such momentous events as found in verses 29-30

As far as me I dont rely on extrabiblical sources, especially when historians dispute the authenticity of some works

Your post is inconsistent then. If you do not rely on extrabiblical sources, then your requirement that Josephus had to record completely everything that was mentioned in Mt 24 does not make sense.

However, Josephus recorded quite enough for us to identify that that was the period Jesus talked about. It is a support for the words of Jesus, not a replacement of it.

 

[Doug]

Your post is inconsistent then. If you do not rely on extrabiblical sources, then your requirement that Josephus had to record completely everything that was mentioned in Mt 24 does not make sense.

However, Josephus recorded quite enough for us to identify that that was the period Jesus talked about. It is a support for the words of Jesus, not a replacement of it.

Your post is inconsistent then. If you do not rely on extrabiblical sources, then your requirement that Josephus had to record completely everything that was mentioned in Mt 24 does not make sense.

Never said he had to record all of Matthew 24

However, Josephus recorded quite enough for us to identify that that was the period Jesus talked about. It is a support for the words of Jesus, not a replacement of it.

Nothing recorded by these historians can be said to show Matthew 24:29-30 happened

 

[HealthyShape]

Nothing recorded by these historians can be said to show Matthew 24:29-30 happened

1. Did you read them?
2. How do you know whether Jesus was talking about literal astronomical events or in the apocalyptic language?
3. If it was meant literally and Josephus did not record it, so what then? Are you trying to prove that Jesus was wrong?

 

[Doug]

1. Did you read them?
2. How do you know whether Jesus was talking about literal astronomical events or in the apocalyptic language?
3. If it was meant literally and Josephus did not record it, so what then? Are you trying to prove that Jesus was wrong?

1. Did you read them?

Yes

2. How do you know whether Jesus was talking about literal astronomical events or in the apocalyptic language?

I take it as being literal

3. If it was meant literally and Josephus did not record it, so what then? Are you trying to prove that Jesus was wrong?

Josephus didnt record it because it didnt happen yet.

If Matthew 24:29-30 occurred than why isnt Jesus reigning from Jerusalem..............................[Isa 2:3 KJV] 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

 

[HealthyShape]

I take it as being literal

But my question was how do you know it is literal and not apocalyptic language common in the Bible.

Josephus didnt record it because it didnt happen yet.

But Jesus taught that it will happen immediately after the events. So, it had to happen immediately after the events in Judea, Jerusalem. If it did not happen literally, then it was not meant to be about literal eclipse or falling stars.

There is no other solution if we want to believe the text. When you say "it did not happen yet", you are going against the text.

 

[Doug]

But my question was how do you know it is literal and not apocalyptic language common in the Bible.


But Jesus taught that it will happen immediately after the events. So, it had to happen immediately after the events in Judea, Jerusalem. If it did not happen literally, then it was not meant to be about literal eclipse or falling stars.

There is no other solution if we want to believe the text. When you say "it did not happen yet", you are going against the text.

What is apocalyptic language?

Jesus said it will be after the tribulation

 

[HealthyShape]

What is apocalyptic language?

A symbolic, highly figurative way of describing cosmic events, divine action, judgment, and the overturning of human affairs.

For example:

"But this is that having been spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it will be in the last days...the sun will be darkened, moon into blood, blood, fire, vapor..."
Act 2:16

For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising and the moon will not shed its light
(Is 13:10)
= about the destruction of the ancient Babylon

There was no complete collapse of the world when God judged Israel through Babylon (Jeremiah 4:22-30), nor when He judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ezekiel 32:1-16), even though these scriptures testify plainly it would happen at those events.

I also don't recall any historical record of God being seen riding a cloud, shooting arrows and killing His enemies with His brightness when David defeated Saul (2 Samuel 22).

 

[Doug]

A symbolic, highly figurative way of describing cosmic events, divine action, judgment, and the overturning of human affairs.

For example:

"But this is that having been spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it will be in the last days...the sun will be darkened, moon into blood, blood, fire, vapor..."
Act 2:16

For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising and the moon will not shed its light
(Is 13:10)
= about the destruction of the ancient Babylon

There was no complete collapse of the world when God judged Israel through Babylon (Jeremiah 4:22-30), nor when He judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ezekiel 32:1-16), even though these scriptures testify plainly it would happen at those events.

I also don't recall any historical record of God being seen riding a cloud, shooting arrows and killing His enemies with His brightness when David defeated Saul (2 Samuel 22).

I have no trouble discerning figurative and literal passages

 

[HealthyShape]

I have no trouble discerning figurative and literal passages

Cool. So you will easily discern that talking about the Sun, Moon and stars is a common apocalyptic language in the Bible. It represents profound, disruptive, frequently final judgement over some nation or empire.

 

[Doug]

For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising and the moon will not shed its light
(Is 13:10)
= about the destruction of the ancient Babylon

There was no complete collapse of the world when God judged Israel through Babylon (Jeremiah 4:22-30), nor when He judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ezekiel 32:1-16), even though these scriptures testify plainly it would happen at those events.

Isiah 13:10 is not saying that the day of the Lord occurred when he judged Babylon

The day of the Lord is treated as a future separate topic....................[Isa 13:9-10 KJV] 9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine................................these are the same cosmic events are found in Matthew 24:29-30............................[Isa 13:11 KJV] 11 And I will punish the world for [their] evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,this is judgement on the world

 

[HealthyShape]

Isiah 13:10 is not saying that the day of the Lord occurred when he judged Babylon

That was not the point. The apocalyptic language was the point.

Interestingly, some translations present the "signs in heavens" passage in Mt 24 as a citation, recognizing it as not being a literal description:

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26“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29“Immediately after the distress of those days

“ ‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ b

30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth c will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. d 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

NIV

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26So if they tell you, ‘There He is, in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Here He is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

BSB

 

[Doug]

Interestingly, some translations present the "signs in heavens" passage in Mt 24 as a citation, recognizing it as not being a literal description:

Thats no surprise. Just explain away anything that doesnt support a held belief

 

[HealthyShape]

Thats no surprise. Just explain away anything that doesnt support a held belief

Neither NIV nor BSB is a preterist translation, so your comment makes no sense. They just recognized it is a citation of the Old Testament imagery and helped readers to see that.

In the similar way, Peter quoted the imagery of Joel:

"But this is that having been spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it will be in the last days...the sun will be darkened, moon into blood, blood, fire, vapor..."
Act 2:16

But it was not happening literally.