Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man

[WPM]

Is that your final answer? Ready for my answer?



Did you ever study Gabriel in Hebrew?

1403 Gabriy'el gab-ree-ale' from 'geber' (1397) and ''el' (410); man of God; Gabriel, an archangel:--Garbriel.
1397 geber gheh'-ber from 'gabar' (1396); properly, a valiant man or warrior; generally, a person simply:--every one, man, X mighty.
410 'el ale shortened from ''ayil' (352); strength; as adjective, mighty; especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity):--God (god), X goodly, X great, idol, might(-y one), power, strong. Compare names in "-el."

Like Michael, Gabriel is identified as the angel of the Lord, Jesus Christ!

Luk 1:11-20
(11) And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.
(12) And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.
(13) But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
(14) And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
(15) For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
(16) And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
(17) And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
(18) And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.
(19) And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
(20) And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.

Who exactly is this angel of the Lord?

Jdg 13:21-22
(21) But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD.
(22) And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

Gen 16:9-13
(9) And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
(10) And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
(11) And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
(12) And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
(13) And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?

Exo 3:2-6
(2) And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
(3) And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
(4) And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
(5) And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
(6) Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

The angel of the Lord is GOD HIMSELF! And since no one has seen God the Father and lives, it has to be Jesus Christ! he has many names, like Michael (one who is assuredly is God) and Gabriel (God man).
Joh 5:36-37
(36) But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
(37) And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

If Gabriel is the angel (messenger) of the Lord, then yes, SI, Gabriel indeed has to be Jesus Christ.




Don't tell me that I did not warn you before, remember this on Judgment day. (wink).

LOL. What are you on? Is there anything real or literal in the Bible. This is actually Gnosticism.

 

[TribulationSigns]

LOL. What are you on? Is there anything real or literal in the Bible. This is actually Gnosticism.

 

[rwb]

LOL. What are you on? Is there anything real or literal in the Bible. This is actually Gnosticism.

I was pretty sure this was why you treat TI with such vitriol! You are jealous of his spiritual understanding! Much jealousy has turned you and SI into....I can't even put into words how vicious you have both become.

 

[Scott Downey]

I believe it refers to all fallen angels and the text is figurative. Spirit beings can't be literally chained up. So, it's not talking about angels being literally chained up in a place called Tartarus. It's figurative text similar to when it talks about the dragon, Satan, being bound with a chain in a prison and in a bottomless pit (abyss).

But, we can agree to disagree about this if you want. What is being debated is the existence of angels, including fallen angels, and you do acknowledge their existence.

I believe God did lock them up in Tartarus, they are not free to roam the world.
Do you then believe the garden of Eden, tree of life, tree of knowledge of good and evil, the fall into sin, the serpent speaking, the judgments of God pronounced on the serpent and Adam and Eve, the way of reentry blocked by cherubim and a flaming sword, all of that, all figurative text?

such as v24, not reality back then.

24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

 

[rwb]

I believe God did lock them up in Tartarus, they are not free to roam the world.
Do you then believe the garden of Eden, tree of life, tree of knowledge of good and evil, the fall into sin, the serpent speaking, all of that is all figurative text?

Who did God lock up and reserve for judgment Scott? Spirit messengers or human messengers?

 

[Muna]

Sons of God are also mentioned in Job
These creatures are not men, not human beings.
These are the same ones Genesis 6 speaks of.
Satan appears to be of the same order of being as themselves.
Peter also refers to 'celestial beings'. in other words angels.
Angels also appear to be of a large amount of variety in kind, some are called 'watchers', but they all are 'celestial', until they leave their appointed by God places, purposes and functions, habitations, against His will.


Job 1

Satan Attacks Job’s Character​

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and [e]Satan also came among them. 7 And the Lord said to [f]Satan, “From where do you come?”

So Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”

8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you [g]considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and [h]shuns evil?”

9 So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not [i]made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse[j] You to Your face!”

12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your [k]power; only do not lay a hand on his person.”

So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.

He appears to have to ask for the permission to do anything

Simon was given the heads up concerning Satans desire here

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat

Since he apparently he got that permission

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Okay SI and WPM, listen up...Read the verses carefully:

Heb 13:1-3

• Let brotherly love continue.
• Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
• Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body.

Christians are encouraged to remember their first love and show brotherly love in being hospitable to foreigners, strangers, and pilgrims (something which the church has forgotten) because they very well could be messengers of God. We warned that they, too, were in spiritual bondage like we were. God is NOT talking about supernatural angels out living among us clandestinely, but people who we may not know are truly messengers of God. This has nothing to do with being hospitable to supernatural beings from heaven who might drop in on us to visit like you think! For example, the word is messengers, not angels.

1st Samuel 29:9

• "And Achish answered and said to David, I know that thou art good in my sight, as an angel of God: notwithstanding the princes of the Philistines have said, He shall not go up with us to the battle."

Well, is David literally an angel of God? Hello?! Or was he a messenger of God? Humm!

@rwb

 

[WPM]

I was pretty sure this was why you treat TI with such vitriol! You are jealous of his spiritual understanding! Much jealousy has turned you and SI into....I can't even put into words how vicious you have both become.

Keep your false charges to yourself. You are describing yourself and your mentor.

It is you that has strayed into heresy and Christadelphian, not us. We remain in biblical orthodoxy.

 

[Scott Downey]

Who did God lock up and reserve for judgment Scott? Spirit messengers or human messengers?

The angels who sinned are locked up in Tartarus, which is the lowest part of hell.
Not humans, angels.
Humans also go to hell.
Hell is not monolithic, it has levels of punishments.
Jesus talked of being beaten with few versus many stripes.
But the punishments are not controlled by demons, that seems wrong to me.
There are no evil spirits or demons in hell yet.

Matthew 8:28-30
New King James Version
Two Demon-Possessed Men Healed
28 When He had come to the other side, to the country of the [a]Gergesenes, there met Him two demon-possessed men, coming out of the tombs, exceedingly fierce, so that no one could pass that way. 29 And suddenly they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?”

Scripture talks of God's wrath burning all the way to the lowest hell

2 Peter 2
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to [b]hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

Deuteronomy 32:22
For a fire is kindled in My anger, And shall burn to the lowest hell; It shall consume the earth with her increase, And set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

 

[WPM]

Okay SI and WPM, listen up...Read the verses carefully:

Heb 13:1-3

• Let brotherly love continue.
• Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
• Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body.

Christians are encouraged to remember their first love and show brotherly love in being hospitable to foreigners, strangers, and pilgrims (something which the church has forgotten) because they very well could be messengers of God. ...NOT supernatural angels out living among us clandestinely, but people who we may not know are truly messengers of God. This has nothing to do with being hospitable to supernatural beings from heaven who might drop in on us to visit like you think! For example, the word is messengers, not angels.

1st Samuel 29:9

• "And Achish answered and said to David, I know that thou art good in my sight, as an angel of God: notwithstanding the princes of the Philistines have said, He shall not go up with us to the battle."

Well, is David literally an angel of God? Hello?! Or was he a messenger of God? Humm!

@rwb

Can you not read what we write?

The term messenger can refer to man and angels, all depending on context. How many times do we need to state that? And yes, God does send literal angelical beings to earth to minister, provide and defend His servants. Scripture is full of that. If you do not see that that is willful blindness. Only God can remove that. You and TS just spiritualize these appearances away, as the Gnostics do.

 

[Muna]

He appears to have to ask for the permission to do anything

Simon was given the heads up concerning Satans desire here

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat

Since he apparently he got that permission

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

I will add to the above here

Tribulation worketh patience

James 5:10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.

James brings our attention to the patience of Job

James 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

And we know in the end, the LORD turns his captivity

Job 42:10 And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends:
also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.

As we know, Job's tribulation begins here

Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

Satan's expressed desire is shared with Simon

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat

And to Satan's request concerning Job the LORD replies

John 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power

And Jesus to Simon on Satan's desire to sift him

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. (Follow this through into 1Peter 1:5-7)

Jesus to one of the seven churches concerning the devil (which is Satan) says to them here

Rev 2:12 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Paul (when he was Saul) played a hand in the same when he confesses

Acts 26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.

Satan is shown using human agency also even as he did so in Job

Job 1:15 And the Sabeans fell upon them in Job.

As with the Pharsisees (of the which Saul was) who also shut up the saints in prison.

Just as Jesus called the Pharisees (John 8:13) of their father the devil John 8:44

 

[Scott Downey]

2 Peter 2
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to [b]hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

It seems some here do not believe the above has really happened.
It seems some here believe demons and evil spirits are fallen angels.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Keep your false charges to yourself. You are describing yourself and your mentor.

It is you that has strayed into heresy and Christadelphian, not us. We remain in biblical orthodoxy.

Do you even realize what you’re saying? Christadelphianism is a false doctrine, plain and simple. They deny the eternal pre-existence of Jesus Christ, claiming He only began to exist when conceived in Mary. They strip the Holy Spirit of His personhood, reducing Him to a mere “force” or “influence.” They reject the Trinity, and they even claim baptism by immersion is required for salvation.

Now tell me, where have I ever taught any of that nonsense? You slap the label “Christadelphian” on someone just because you can’t dismantle their argument with Scripture? That’s not discernment—that’s lazy ignorance. Maybe do your homework before throwing around accusations that only expose your lack of understanding. Or at least understand what the group actually believes before throwing around names you clearly don’t comprehend.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Can you not read what we write?

The term messenger can refer to man and angels, all depending on context.

Depending on the context? LOL! Look, answer my question, is David is an angel of God? Yes or no?

How many times do we need to state that? And yes, God does send literal angelical beings to earth to minister, provide and defend His servants. Scripture is full of that. If you do not see that that is willful blindness. Only God can remove that. You and TS just spiritualize these appearances away, as the Gnostics do.

Labeling people won't help your case because you were not being honestly with God's Word that we testified.

 

[Muna]

This guy is as stubborn as they come. We are destroying his doctrine with scripture after scripture and he continues to make things up in his imagination to deny them all. Its one of the saddest things I've ever seen.

Thats not a good place to be

1 Sam 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

 

[rwb]

Keep your false charges to yourself. You are describing yourself and your mentor.

It is you that has strayed into heresy and Christadelphian, not us. We remain in biblical orthodoxy.

Look at the pot calling the kettle black! It is you displaying a heart filled with hatred and pride who continues to lash out because you have no biblical response. You show yourself a hypocrite!

Matthew 7:3 (KJV) And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Matthew 7:5 (KJV) Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

 

[WPM]

2 Peter 2
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to [b]hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

It seems some here do not believe the above has really happened.
It seems some here believe demons and evil spirits are fallen angels.

Read the Op. The unseen realm of the kingdom of God is a collective whole. 1Ti 5:21 tells us: "I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels." This is one side of the invisible realm. These are God's angels - the faithful ones.

The demonic realm is also a collective whole - the "evil angels" (Psa 78:49). These are the unfaithful angels. When Christ or the NT writers describe Satan and his invisible host they are described in Matthew 25:41 as “the devil and his angels,” in Revelation 12:7 as “the dragon … and his angels,” and in Revelation 12:9 as “that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan … and his angels.”

There are no subgroups within the demonic realm - like “the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation” (Jud 1:6) / “the angels that sinned" (2 Peter 2:4) on one side and then "devils," "unclean (impure or fowl) spirits" and "evil spirits" on the other side. These are all the same wicked spirits.

Angels are spirits (Hebrews 1:14). Demons are fallen angels. They operate in the invisible realm. Their allegiance is to Satan. When the Bible talks about the activity of the devil, it sometimes includes the phrase “and his angels.”

 

[WPM]

Look at the pot calling the kettle black! It is you displaying a heart filled with hatred and pride who continues to lash out because you have no biblical response. You show yourself a hypocrite!

Matthew 7:3 (KJV) And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Matthew 7:5 (KJV) Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Sadly, you have both lost a lot of credibility on this forum. How do we take your posts serious anymore? This is 101 Christianity.

 

[Scott Downey]

Luke 8​

A Demon-Possessed Man Healed​

26 Then they sailed to the country of the [k]Gadarenes, which is opposite Galilee. 27 And when He stepped out on the land, there met Him a certain man from the city who had demons [l]for a long time. And he wore no clothes, nor did he live in a house but in the tombs. 28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, fell down before Him, and with a loud voice said, “What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You, do not torment me!” 29 For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For it had often seized him, and he was kept under guard, bound with chains and shackles; and he broke the bonds and was driven by the demon into the wilderness.

30 Jesus asked him, saying, “What is your name?”

And he said, “Legion,” because many demons had entered him. 31 And they begged Him that He would not command them to go out into the abyss.

Now who knows what the abyss is?
But they fear that, and it seems to me they know some had been sent there.
Whatever the abyss is they are removed beyond the world and can no longer have a presence in this world.
To me it seems like they would be locked in Tartarus to await the Day of judgement as were the fallen angels who sinned.

I know some of you reject the idea of the Nephilim becoming the evil spirits, but it logically fits scripture of the giants, the demons, the angels who sinned with women being locked up for sexual immorality. And it is what the early church believed.

 

[WPM]

Do you even realize what you’re saying? Christadelphianism is a false doctrine, plain and simple. They deny the eternal pre-existence of Jesus Christ, claiming He only began to exist when conceived in Mary. They strip the Holy Spirit of His personhood, reducing Him to a mere “force” or “influence.” They reject the Trinity, and they even claim baptism by immersion is required for salvation.

Now tell me, where have I ever taught any of that nonsense? You slap the label “Christadelphian” on someone just because you can’t dismantle their argument with Scripture? That’s not discernment—that’s lazy ignorance. Maybe do your homework before throwing around accusations that only expose your lack of understanding. Or at least understand what the group actually believes before throwing around names you clearly don’t comprehend.

This is what you espouse. You agreed with their doctrine in an earlier in post #26. You exposed the source of your teaching.