This is where we will disagree, as Christ is not the creature, He is the Creator.
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No one has seen God at any time, John?
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ScottA
Well-Known Member
That we might reason together: How does that fit with "fully God fully man?" ...as in "being in the form of God... took the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men", and "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,"
In taking upon Himself the form of a servant, becoming obedient (not previously disobedient, rather, sovereign), the Son of God did not Himself become "created". "A body you have prepared for Me", the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary, and this body was provided. Yet Jesus is not created.
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@Riven do you think I drove a wedge between the trinitarian and the non-trinitarian Christian mystic? I hope not. The wedge was there the whole time. Do you think I was successful in tying them together as allies against the Messiah’s Jewish monotheism? I hope so. It weakens both of them.
Consider this: If the Messiah’s Jewish monotheism is attractive to you, you won’t get it with the trinitarian and you won’t get it with the non-trinitarian Christian mystic.
If you’re serious about following Jesus - who is a Jewish monotheist - why would you not want to be a Jewish monotheist?
Consider this: If the Messiah’s Jewish monotheism is attractive to you, you won’t get it with the trinitarian and you won’t get it with the non-trinitarian Christian mystic.
If you’re serious about following Jesus - who is a Jewish monotheist - why would you not want to be a Jewish monotheist?
dak
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That would likely take its own thread to fully explain: here is an extremely short answer. All flesh is not the same flesh, and Mosheh wrote the Torah on lambskins, regardless of what modern Judaism might say about that, (even every scroll or fragment discovered at Qumran ended up being either of lambskin, goatskin, or a combination of both). The Torah itself was written in the boiled down "pure blood of the grape", mixed with acacia(shiyttim) tree sap, and lamp-black to further darken it, (there is indeed strong evidence for all of these things).
Thus, as soon as Mosheh began to write the Torah, the Logos-Dabar-Word of the Almighty became flesh: Lambskin.
A Song of the Scroll
Tehillim-Psalms 40:1-6 1 For the End, A Psalm of David. Waiting, I waited (patiently) on YHWH, and He inclined unto me, and heard my cry. 2 And He has brought me up from the pit of desolation, out of the miry clay, and has set my feet upon the Rock and has established my steps. 3 He has put a...
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Yes, it is my reading, and "that one" or "that thing" is typically the primary meaning of εκεινος in older and lesser lexicons such as Strong's. Your image file above renders εκεινος simply as "that". However if we are going to render logos in John 1:1 as a proper noun, and thus capitalize it in translation, "the Word", then we must be willing to do the same at least in other passages where it plays a vital role our understanding of the text, and in doctrinal decisions and formulation: otherwise we are just playing a fallacy game called special pleading.
Does logos have a doctrinal impact on the context in which it is employed in John 12:48? It absolutely does, and seeing that you must be somewhat familiar with Greek, and the reasoning which I see behind the question you ask, surely reveals that you are aware of the doctrinal impact which is involved here. It's good to see someone who appears to understand the gravity of what has been presented in my little creed. So then, if Logos is capitalized in John 1:1 then it should be capitalized also in John 12:48 because it plays a vital role regarding the doctrine which Trinitariansim has developed from John 1:1, and that is why I also use an upper case letter in "that One", (it's referring back to "the Logos which I have spoken").
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
he, it, the other, that very
From ekei; that one (or (neuter) thing); often intensified by the article prefixed -- he, it, the other (same), selfsame, that (same, very), X their, X them, they, this, those.
Topical Lexicon
Overview
The demonstrative pronoun translated “that,” “those,” or “he/ she/ it over there” functions as a verbal spotlight. By pointing away from what is immediate and familiar, it calls attention to persons, days, deeds, covenants, or judgments that stand apart in importance. From Matthew to Revelation its 244 appearances operate like signposts that steer readers toward decisive moments in redemptive history and pivotal truths in Christian doctrine.
The usage in John 12:48 is explained as follows from Thayer's #1.c. under the word.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1565: ἐκεῖνος
equivalent to the forcibly uttered German der (that one etc.), in which sense it serves to recall and lay stress upon nouns just before used (cf. our resumptive the same; Winer's Grammar, § 23, 4): John 1:18; John 5:39; John 12:48; John 14:26; John 15:26;
Because I'm not Jewish.
One doesn’t have to be Jewish in order to be a Jewish monotheist.
Luke 6:40 is one of my favorite passages of scripture.
Are there any other factors that would deter you from having the same theology as the Messiah?
Not necessarily. But I fail to see why it's necessary when belief is sufficient.
So, at least at the moment, there is just the one major obstacle - you aren’t Jewish. The earliest Christians were believing Jewish monotheists. The church began as a tiny sect of Judaism. As the church began to spread outside of Jerusalem and immediate environs in carrying out the great commission, the gospel was delivered to Jews in the diaspora and to Gentiles. Jew or Gentile, all converts became like their teacher, Jesus.
Believe what?
Jesus is a Jewish monotheist. That is a fact.
“But don’t you be called ‘Rabbi,’ for one is your teacher, the Christ, and all of you are brothers.”
(Matthew 23:8, WEB)
”A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher.”
(Luke 6:40, WEB)
The teacher is Jesus, the Messiah, the Son of the living God, a Jewish monotheist. What is he teaching? Is he turning out disciples who don’t have his theology? Is he producing students who reject his theology?
What theology does a Jewish monotheist teach? Buddhism? Of course not. The theology that Jesus teaches is his own theology -> Jewish monotheism.
How is a student like his teacher if after he is fully trained he doesn’t graduate with the same theology his teacher has? Wouldn’t such a student, in fact, be unlike his teacher?
You might not find this argumemt persuasive. If you don’t, then reject it. Whether you do or you don’t, you should now have good insight into why I’m a Jewish monotheist:
I’m a Jewish monotheist because my teacher, the Messiah, is himself a Jewish monotheist.
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Who, with your current understanding, is the sender and who is the sent?
Proposition: To believe in someone is to believe what they teach.
Do you buy it?
The Father sent the Son.
I agree.
I don't know. I barely put my toe in the water and you want me to jump in the deep end? Is this about keeping me in the non-Christian section?
That’s right. Yahweh, the living God, sent Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah, Son of the living God.
Yahweh is the God and Father of the lord Jesus Messiah.
So believing in someone entails more than just believing they exist. We believe in someone because they exist and have a message. There is still more. We believe in someone when we change our mind and behavior to be like the teacher.
Yes, but not without the teacher.
Is this about keeping me in the non-Christian section?
Ha! No, it’s not about keeping you in the non-Christian section. Once you follow through on what you’re planning to do - “sooner rather than later“ - then you can choose to stay here (by requesting a change in your registration to “Other Faith”) or go there (by requesting a change in your registration to “Christian”).
If you do decide to change your registration to “Christian” then I’ll miss you up here in the shadowland. I hope you’ll stop by for a visit with me from time to time.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Reasonable. But what then of "the first Adam... and the Last Adam"...not equally, comparably part of the same creation?
And what of "For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many?"
And what then, is the Son of "man" not Jesus Christ?
You have answered already, and it is a good answer. But if we purpose to define what God has already defined, not saying what He himself said... The answer then, I too have already given: What we see, whether Adam, or any man, or Christ--from the beginning--God has defined as "image." In the case of Christ, His image is truly the image of God.
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Right. But the holy trinity complicates things. It's a very difficult concept to grasp because I'm never in two places at once. Jesus said before Abraham, I am. What do you think that means?
You know I couldn't stay away from this part of the forum. In a way, it's home.
Sorry for the interruption I just had to write a few words on the subject for you. and hello..Right. But the holy trinity complicates things. It's a very difficult concept to grasp because I'm never in two places at once. Jesus said before Abraham, I am. What do you think that means?
You know I couldn't stay away from this part of the forum. In a way, it's home.
Faith in the gospel given by the Father to His Son is crucial and requires a sincere and heartfelt commitment to belief and ongoing faith. When someone experiences the new presence of the Son's spirit within them, life suddenly gains a fresh perspective and direction; only then are they transformed into a new being and become a true child of God.
Human-made concepts like the Trinity will not bring salvation; in fact, they can cause confusion and hinder or even prevent someone from becoming a genuine Christian. One must live with a renewed heart and spirit of life, rather than simply adopting a new mental outlook or perspective that does not nourish the spirit and soul—such as merely reading a new book about Christianity, new creeds, or new sets of principles that may sound convincing. Many religious groups are willing to offer their teachings and products, but these will not save anyone from their sins. This is evident on this forum and others. They cannot save you because you have not truly believed in the one unique human being (Son of Man) who was destined to be the Son of God, that caused your very being from being arrested and turned around producing immediate evidence of real change from within you.
Bless you Riven
PS... I would not be deterred by the label Jewish Monotheism. What's inside or under the hood it what really counted and it is but one unpopular (being unpopular in this world is good) stream or approach for one's life that can lead to one's salvation from the heart, and not just the mind, bringing truly personal salvation, with a truly monotheistic scriptural backdrop.
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We should keep a firm grip on what is right.
If the teacher - the Messiah - taught trinitarianism then his students should embrace trinitarianism and be trinitarians, just like the teacher.
It took the church several centuries to develop the concept. The history of the development of the doctrine of the Trinity is well preserved for us in Church history. There are many excellent books, written by trinitarian scholars, on the subject. I’ve written about it extensively on the Board, using trinitarian sources. It’s important that we get our information from those who affirm it. It’s also important that we read the writings of the early church fathers.
We need to have some knowledge and understanding about the Greek philosophical concepts it makes use of and the technical language that it uses.
Does that sound reasonable to you?
Jesus said that his words are spirit. So, too, are ours. You are with me now in spirit, and I with you, in the words which we use to express ourselves, even though physically we are over five hundred miles away from one another.
I think it means that Jesus is before Abraham not in time but in position.
You know I couldn't stay away from this part of the forum. In a way, it's home.
I’m pleased to hear that.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
In this specific case: John would be wrong if the Holy Spirit was wrong and if JESUS was wrong and if the FATHER was shaking His Head.....
soberxp
Well-Known Member
I find it interesting that people like to understand God's word in their own way, but the Bible makes things very clear, You can find the right answer even outside the Bible, maybe I should call it extracurricular reading,
God cannot be born by man, and God does not breed. God creates man, and God does not breed man. The Koran says so.
In the OT, God uses Israel defeats the enemy to teach us there is no other word/God. (The word was God,and the word with God.)
In the NT,God teaches us what these words are through Jesus Christ..
If you want to tell the word is God, then you also right.
If you want to tell God and Jesus are two different things, then you also right.
But the word never change, whatever you understand the word or not.
The word was God,and the word with God.
Now the word is Jesus Christ, and the word with Jesus Christ.
God is God.
Jesus Christ is Jesus Christ.
Father is father.
Son is son.
matthew 5:37
But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
God cannot be born by man, and God does not breed. God creates man, and God does not breed man. The Koran says so.
In the OT, God uses Israel defeats the enemy to teach us there is no other word/God. (The word was God,and the word with God.)
In the NT,God teaches us what these words are through Jesus Christ..
If you want to tell the word is God, then you also right.
If you want to tell God and Jesus are two different things, then you also right.
But the word never change, whatever you understand the word or not.
The word was God,and the word with God.
Now the word is Jesus Christ, and the word with Jesus Christ.
God is God.
Jesus Christ is Jesus Christ.
Father is father.
Son is son.
matthew 5:37
But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
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