Bibliolatry: Worship/knowledge of the book MORE than the author

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
I think that's the wrong way to look at it.

What do we know about the Word?
- In the beginning
- was with God
- was God
- became flesh

Was God > Became flesh

The Logos was not a person.
The Logos/logic/reason/plan was a thought.

Where was the Logos (the Word) when Jesus "returned" to heaven?

I don't mean to be rude, but I'm really not interested in what you "think"! It's what you can prove from the written Word of God!

Here you go.

John 1:1-2 NIV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

John 1:14 NIV
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.


Lexical Summary

logos: Word, speech, message, account, reason, doctrine​

Original Word: λόγος
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: logos
Pronunciation: LO-gos
Phonetic Spelling: (log'-os)
KJV: account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work
NASB: word, words, statement, message, speech, account, matter
Word Origin: [from G3004 (λέγω - said)]

1. something said (including the thought)
2. (by implication) a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive
3. (by extension) a computation
4. (specially, with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ)

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
a word, the Word
From lego; something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ) -- account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

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[rwb]

Where was the Logos (the Word) when Jesus "returned" to heaven?

Within the hearts and minds of faithful saints through His Spirit (God)!

 

[St. SteVen]

Within the hearts and minds of faithful saints through His Spirit (God)!

I suppose I should ask you for biblical proof as well?

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[rwb]

I suppose I should ask you for biblical proof as well?

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You can't find biblical proof of the Spirit of Christ being within our hearts and minds?

 

[St. SteVen]

You can't find biblical proof of the Spirit of Christ being within our hearts and minds?

That wasn't the question. Try again.

St. SteVen said:
Where was the Logos (the Word) when Jesus "returned" to heaven?

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[St. SteVen]

Where was the Logos (the Word) when Jesus "returned" to heaven?

What do we know about the Word?
- In the beginning
- was with God
- was God
- became flesh

Was God > Became flesh

The Logos was not a person.
The Logos/logic/reason/plan was a thought.

Where was the Logos (the Word) when Jesus "returned" to heaven?

Christ didn't give up being the Word to become human flesh.

This was your original claim that I challenged.

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[rwb]

That wasn't the question. Try again.

St. SteVen said:
Where was the Logos (the Word) when Jesus "returned" to heaven?

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I choose to leave you to your own devices!

 

[St. SteVen]

I choose to leave you to your own devices!

"Is it because you know to argue against what I have said is to argue against God?
Even the unbeliever knows that would indeed be foolish." - rwb

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[Hillsage]

Christ didn't give up being the Word to become human flesh. He was a living soul, fully man, and fully God, through the Holy Spirit in Him. The Spirit in Him did not leave Him when He became a man.

Christ wasn't the Word to begin with. GOD was the Father, Word, Holy Spirit. There was no 'Christ spirit' until 'the Holy Spirit' of GOD gave birth to the very first spirit, which was "before the foundation of the world/kosmos." Eph 1:4 Joh 17;5, 17:24

JOH 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

That includes the spirit of animals and men. But neither group was created with the 'spirit of christ' in them.

I agree, the Spirit was not IN the prophets of Old, but according to Scripture, they were moved by the Spirit WITH them and wrote.

2 Peter 1:21 (KJV) For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Now, I think I was wrong in thinking that you were the one who posted the verse I was thinking of. That verse is not the verse you just quoted. Your 2Peter verse doesn't say where the holy spirit of Christ was. My 1Peter verse does say;

1PE 1:11 KJV Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was IN them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

My understanding of salvation is that it is the gift of God alone and that man possesses eternal life through their spirit from that moment forward. Salvation is also on-going (work out salvation, not work for) because man possessing eternal life of his spirit through the Spirit of Christ in them, is also being saved from everlasting mortal & spirit death that shall come at the Judgment Day, when man will either have part in the Second Death (LOF) or having their name recorded in the book of life, possess a resurrected physical immortal & incorruptible body than shall be with Christ forever on the new earth.

We do differ, but it helps me to know your overall paradigm. And we could go deep on several of your positions above. But we'll keep the elephant in tact, for now and keep moving on.

The word received is not two different words, because both are derived from the same root. Those receiving Him NOT were not willing to associate with Christ. While those who DID receive Him are accepting of Him and being amazed, they readily accept Him.

G3880
from G3844 and G2983; to receive near, i.e. associate with oneself (in any familiar or intimate act or relation); by analogy, to assume an office; figuratively, to learn:—receive, take (unto, with).

G2983
accept, + be amazed, assay, attain, bring, × when I call, catch, come on (× unto), + forget, have, hold, obtain, receive (× after), take (away, up).

Brother, you are correct, and I stand corrected. I always look up that English word "receive" to see if it is being consistently 'interpreted'. This time I just looked up 2983 lambano and then I just ASSumed the other #3844 was the word decomai. My bad. Here is a verse which supports my comment;

ACT 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received/decomai the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive/lambano the Holy Ghost:

You 'decomai' receive (a passive receiving, where salvation of your spirit is given to you like change being handed from one hand to the receiving hand.
But you 'lambano' receive (an active taking, where you receive the baptism OF supernatural power FROM the Holy Spirit of God for the supernatural 'unknown prayer language' for your spirit. This receive is like the receiver on the football team who has to run to the place where the ball is thrown to CATCH, TAKE what was thrown in order to receive it.

Man possesses the breath that makes them physically alive through the spirit in them. Every human with body and spirit is a living sou. Christ also possessed physical life when He was physically born through the Holy Spirit in Him. This is how Jesus is distinguished from natural man with natural spirit (breath of life), and why Jesus NEVER had to be born again to possess eternal life of His spirit.

Matthew 1:20 (KJV) But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

That which was conceived in her was not "the Holy Ghost". The Greek word for "of the" above is possessive and means 'The Holy Spirit of God' gave Mary 'something which only the Holy Spirit does' in the triune Godhead. 'That being' The Holy Spirit gives supernatural POWER to accomplish what the Father and Word both agree upon.. And that POWER accomplishes what the 'Father thought and the Word spoke to The Holy Spirit. And in the case of Mary, The HS invested preternatural power into Mary's fleshly egg to produce a living fetus. And the 'life' of that fetus came from the spirit of Christ birthed from The Holy Spirit of GOD (Joh 3:6). All other humans just got an unsaved spirit from conception.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, (mortal body of flesh & blood) and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; (spirit) and man became a living soul (complete human with body + spirit).

I agree in part. But the 'breath of life' wasn't oxygen being blown into a dead body. The 'zoe' life force is spirit and it was that force which makes a dead brain function. The brain told Adam's diaphram to breath and man sucked in air. When Jesus died on the cross he surrendered "my spirit" . The ghost/spirit left and the brain died and Jesus 'expired' or 'breathed his last'.

LUK 23:46* And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

When Jesus raised the little girl from death he didn't do CPR and blow on her. It says "her spirit came again" Luk 8:55, then she came alive and breathing, and they were told to feed her.

As for your "living soul" comment, I disagree with your summation, which I agree, is probably agreed upon by everyone here. Oh well, I know how dangerous it is to be right, when everyone else is WRONG!!!....I believe that Adam was led of the spirit of Christ in him for however long it took from the time God made his dirt dead body in 'west Eden', then God planted a Garden in "east Eden" and then God got Adam and put him in that garden. Who knows the time of Adam from creation until EVE was tempted in that Garden where she was created. All we know is that they never sinned and that's what made them both "living souls" who had access to eating of the tree of immortal life. The instant they did sin they were no longer "living souls" they were 'dying souls'. Or as YLT says;
GEN 2:17* and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it - dying thou dost die.' They were created in the antediluvian "day"/age. Where a 'day' to God, is like "a thousand years" to us. And I believe they lived as long as they did because they never sinned again, having learned their lesson.

EZE 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. "shall" being future tense, but not immediately or even that day.

Amen!
Hoping your day(s) shall be blessed. Trying to be brief, but thorough, I know that isn't easy.

I did disagree with the last bit of your post and deleted it to shorten post. I did so based upon the stuff I just presented here and which supports my paradigm. So not going to be redundant in explaining the end to you again.

Thank you, my day has been good. But this weekend would have been better had I known you actually live in BRANSON!!!! I just noticed that last night. We were there from Friday until Monday morning when we came home. I would have loved to see you, or at least talked on the phone. I have never met anyone from the multiple forums and thousands of threads I've written in 20+ years.

 

[Hillsage]

I think that's the wrong way to look at it.

What do we know about the Word?
- In the beginning
- was with God
- was God
- became flesh

Was God > Became flesh

The Logos was not a person.
The Logos/logic/reason/plan was a thought.

Where was the Logos (the Word) when Jesus "returned" to heaven?

[

I need clarification. When you say "when Jesus returned to heaven", are you talking about when his "flesh"/body died on the cross and was in the tomb for 3 days, and the holy spirit of Christ which was in "Jesus the Christ" went to the Father in heaven?

Or are you asking when Jesus was taken up to heaven, after being seen for 40 days after His dead "flesh"/body was resurrected?

I'm asking because Paul never claimed his mortal body as being who he identified with, in scripture after his spirit was born again on the road to Damascus.

1CO 5:3 For though absent in body I am present in spirit, and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment

2CO 5:1 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 Here indeed we groan, and long to put on our heavenly dwelling, 3* so that by putting it on we may not be found naked. 4 For while we are still in this tent, we sigh with anxiety; not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

Our "heavenly dwelling" or "building" or "house" or "tent" will be our "glorified body" in the hereafter. It will be that 'eternal body' in which our "new creation" born again spirit will live eternally.

I hope that question makes sense Steve. I am asking sincerely.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Where was the Logos (the Word) when Jesus "returned" to heaven?

I need clarification. When you say "when Jesus returned to heaven", are you talking about when his "flesh"/body died on the cross and was in the tomb for 3 days, and the holy spirit of Christ which was in "Jesus the Christ" went to the Father in heaven?

Or are you asking when Jesus was taken up to heaven, after being seen for 40 days after His dead "flesh"/body was resurrected?

I'm asking because Paul never claimed his mortal body as being who he identified with, in scripture after his spirit was born again on the road to Damascus.

Good question.
Please note that "returned" is in quotes. (in my statement)
Which clearly communicates what I am saying,
but at the same time questions the term.
Because "returned" carries the assumption that He, Jesus Christ, was there before.
(though it could be argued that he remembers "being there" with the Father)

Like the day that I was conceived. I was only a twinkle in my mother's eye.
Though, thankfully, I have no memory of the blessed event. - LOL

But to answer your question. I had in mind the ascended Christ.
Or, as you asked, "after being seen for 40 days after His dead "flesh"/body was resurrected?"

My point being, the Word (Logos) was not a person. The Logos/logic/reason/plan became flesh in Christ.
I don't believe in a pre-incarnate Christ. That's not what the Logos was. IMHO

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[soberxp]

What we believe is the word with God, the word from God,the word became flesh, the word is all we need to believe from God.

It's not that I said I believe in God/or believe in Jesus Christ, it's about whether I believe in the word, the word with God, the word was God.

 

[St. SteVen]

What we believe is the word with God, the word from God,the word became flesh, the word is all we need to believe from God.

It's not that I said I believe in God/or believe in Jesus Christ, it's about whether I believe in the word, the word with God, the word was God.

Dangerous words?

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[soberxp]

Dangerous words?

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What Dangerous words?

God uses kill enemies to teach me there is no other word.

If human beings only get the kill the pagan, that is the problem of mind.

The word of God isn't Dangerous words.

But human beings have a Dangerous mind.

 

[St. SteVen]

What Dangerous words?

Here's what you wrote.

It's not that I said I believe in God/or believe in Jesus Christ...

There is no gospel in the Bible that asks us to believe in anyone else.
Can you find a gospel that teaches belief in The Word? (the Logos)

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[soberxp]

Here's what you wrote.

There is no gospel in the Bible that asks us to believe in anyone else.
Can you find a gospel that teaches belief in The Word? (the Logos)

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

2 Corinthians 5:16

 

[St. SteVen]

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

2 Corinthians 5:16

Let's look at the context. (following verses)

2 Corinthians 5:16-21 NIV
So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view.
Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[a]
The old has gone, the new is here!
18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ
and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ,
not counting people’s sins against them.
And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors,
as though God were making his appeal through us.
We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.
21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[b] for us,
so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

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[St. SteVen]

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

2 Corinthians 5:16

Let's look at the context. (preceding verses)

2 Corinthians 5:14-16 NIV
For Christ’s love compels us,
because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves
but for him who died for them and was raised again.
16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view.
Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.

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[Behold]

because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.

Paul is talking only to the born again........not to the unsaved sinner.

 

[Hillsage]

St. SteVen said:
Where was the Logos (the Word) when Jesus "returned" to heaven?

Good question.
Please note that "returned" is in quotes. (in my statement)

I took your "quotes" in to consideration. Then I expanded the quotes for the whole phrase...which made more sense for my answer. I would answer your question as; There was no Logos (the Word) when Jesus "returned" to heaven. Because the Logos/Word was spirit/God when it left heaven but became the 'flesh/body' of Jesus IN Mary. And when the 'triune man Jesus' returned, there was no Word/God/spirit waiting in heaven for 'the Word' or 'Jesus' to return.

Does that even make sense? I am thinking out loud here bro.

Which clearly communicates what I am saying,
but at the same time questions the term.
Because "returned" carries the assumption that He, Jesus Christ, was there before.
(though it could be argued that he remembers "being there" with the Father)

I think there is a "remember" component to the 'spirit of christ' which was 'first born' from the Holy Spirit of God. And that anointed/christos spirit knew all the thoughts of God, from the beginning of creation when that spirit was put into the flesh body of Adam making him the first "son of God". I think the names of all the animals were foreordained from God and as Adam was holy spirit led, those names were brought to his soul/mind and he then his body spoke them unto the animal and the world.

1CO 2:11 For what person knows a man's thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Sspirit of God. (Translators capped the S here making you believe it is the HS of God and not the spirit of Christ FROM God for us.)

In this verse it is not talking about the Holy Spirit OF God. It is speaking of a spirit FROM God which we get when we're born again. And it is 'that spirit' which reveals to us Father God's unspoken words, thoughts, plans just like it did to Jesus.

12 Now we (believers) have received not the spirit of the world, but the Sspirit (of christ) which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God.

The spirit of Christ FROM GOD in us, is the spirit by which we are to be led, to also know the 'thoughts' of "our Father who art in heaven"....JUST LIKE JESUS did.

Like the day that I was conceived. I was only a twinkle in my mother's eye.
Though, thankfully, I have no memory of the blessed event. - LOL

As a doctor I may have a correction here for you to consider. You weren't in mother's eye....you were in an egg in her uterus which would have been a bit farther south.

But to answer your question. I had in mind the ascended Christ.
Or, as you asked, "after being seen for 40 days after His dead "flesh"/body was resurrected?"

My point being, the Word (Logos) was not a person.

Total agreement. The word/spirit became the flesh body, but not the spirit or soul of Jesus, a triune man.

The Logos/logic/reason/plan became flesh in Christ.

The Logos/spirit became flesh IN Christ????? I'm of the persuasion that the Logos/spirit became a flesh body and the spirit of christ was in the flesh body of Jesus making him The Christ/Messiah.

I don't believe in a pre-incarnate Christ. That's not what the Logos was. IMHO

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Not sure of why you said "Christ" above, I'd prefer Jesus. Are you saying that the Father, the Logos/Word and the Holy Spirit were not all three pure 'spirit'? (John 4:24 God is spirit.)

That God is spirit, is my opinion and the triune God never had a "carnal/flesh" image/form/substance. That's why the Word was pre-incarnate before becoming flesh in Mary.

Are we far enough down the rabbit hole here? Sure keeps the post shorter than normal....that's good.