PAUL CAN NOT BE AN APOSTLE ALONG WITH PETER AND THE APOSTLES

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Doug

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Some say there is only one church in the Bible.

Let's examine the implications of this position on the apostleship of Paul, as well as the twelve apostles.

Paul was, with out controversy, an apostle..........[Galatians 1:1 KJV] 1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)............So if there is one church, then Paul would be an apostle along with the twelve. Since there is only one church, they would all be apostles in it. To be an apostle with Peter and the twelve, Paul would have to have been with the other apostles during the entire time Jesus was on earth, beginning from the baptism of John until the ascension of Christ..........[Acts 1:21-22 KJV] 21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. .......................One of the qualifications in Acts 1 :21-22 was "must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.", Paul did see the risen Christ and did meet this qualification to be an apostle.......................[1Co 9:1 KJV] 1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?..............Paul, having seen the risen Lord can be the apostle to the Gentiles in the body of Christ. Paul however, not only could he not be a replacement apostle for Judas, but he also could not be set equally beside Peter and the others as an apostle if there was just one church at the time.

An apostle proclaims the gospel (Galatians 2:2), builds up the church (Romans 16:25), oversees many churches (2 Corinthians 11:28), establishes doctrine (1 Timothy 1:3), establishes order (1 Corinthians 14:40), designates pastors and deacons and their qualifications (Titus 1:5).

Those who believed Peter's preaching were added to the church, and continued in the doctrine of Peter and the apostles...............[Acts 2:41-42 KJV] 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls. 42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.............Here is a problem, Paul establishes doctrine for the church as well............[2Timothy 3:10 KJV] 10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,...........Paul exhorted that no doctrine other then the doctrine he established should be preached............[1Timothy 1:3 KJV] 3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,...........how is the doctrine of Peter and Paul to be reconciled if they are different?

Here is a major conflict in doctrine between Peter and Paul. Peter kept the law..........[Acts 10:13-14 KJV] 13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. 14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
[Acts 10:28 KJV] 28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
If Paul, and Peter, and the apostles, were all operating as one church, then there would be a conflict because Peter held to the law, and Paul said we aren't under it. Paul taught we aren't under the law..........[Romans 6:14 KJV] 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Paul appointed bishops and deacons in the church............[Philippians 1:1 KJV] 1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:..............Here arises another problem, in the church in Jerusalem overseen by Peter, there are no pastors or deacons, but rather, the Levitical priesthood. Peter's church worshipped in the temple......... [Acts 5:42 KJV] 42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.
[Acts 2:46 KJV] 46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

How could Paul have been an apostle in the Jerusalem church headed by Peter, if he was being accused of teaching Jews to forsake Moses and the law?...........[Acts 21:20-21 KJV] 20 And when they heard [it], they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise [their] children, neither to walk after the customs.

[Acts 2:44 KJV] 44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;............................What would Paul and the twelve have in common? How could there possibly be all one church when there exist such discrepancies between them?
God is not the author of confusion..........[1Corinthians 14:33 KJV] 33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Paul is our apostle for the body of Christ, but he could not be an apostle to the church in Jerusalem headed by Peter.
 
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ProverbsInPink

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I am friends with fellow Christians that do not accept Saul of Tarsus , who was also known as Paul,was an Apostle.

They also do not regard the majority of New Testament Texts that are his Epistles.
They consider Matthew,Mark,John, and 1st, 2nd , and 3rd John, and Revelation.

And they also,in some cases agree with scholars who are relatively certain Apostle Peter did not write first and second Peter.

I've asked why they have come to the conclusion Saul was not anointed to be an Apostle.

Some reasons include in multiple instances he referred to his teachings as his gospel. And in one case when he arrived at a town before the other Apostles,he cursed any who would bring those town folk a different gospel .

Also, their words in paraphrase,he admitted he was a tool of the enemy. Unable to obey the gospel he taught others because the thorn in his side was the enemy.

And lastly,as I recall,Jesus anointed His Apostles personally. When replacing Judas the Apostles anointed Matthias.
They never referred to Saul as Apostle but,as brother.

Saul is claiming in thinking to bring his gospel to Gentiles that he was to overcome Peters appointment in that regard. And also,is claiming Jesus left unfinished work when ascending home to the Father.
 

marks

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I am friends with fellow Christians that do not accept Saul of Tarsus , who was also known as Paul,was an Apostle.

They also do not regard the majority of New Testament Texts that are his Epistles.
They consider Matthew,Mark,John, and 1st, 2nd , and 3rd John, and Revelation.

And they also,in some cases agree with scholars who are relatively certain Apostle Peter did not write first and second Peter.

I've asked why they have come to the conclusion Saul was not anointed to be an Apostle.

Some reasons include in multiple instances he referred to his teachings as his gospel. And in one case when he arrived at a town before the other Apostles,he cursed any who would bring those town folk a different gospel .

Also, their words in paraphrase,he admitted he was a tool of the enemy. Unable to obey the gospel he taught others because the thorn in his side was the enemy.

And lastly,as I recall,Jesus anointed His Apostles personally. When replacing Judas the Apostles anointed Matthias.
They never referred to Saul as Apostle but,as brother.

Saul is claiming in thinking to bring his gospel to Gentiles that he was to overcome Peters appointment in that regard. And also,is claiming Jesus left unfinished work when ascending home to the Father.
And do you agree with these things?

Much love!
 
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M

Muna

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Doug do you know which law Peter is referring to when he says it was unlawful for a Jew to come unto another nation?

Theres a reference to something similar here

Joshua 23:6 Be ye therefore very courageous to keep and to do all that is written in the book of the law of Moses, that ye turn not aside therefrom to the right hand or to the left;

Joshua 23:7 That ye come not among these nations, these that remain among you; neither make mention of the name of their gods, nor cause to swear by them, neither serve them, nor bow yourselves unto them:

There is a reference to something similar here

1 Kings 11:2 Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you

I cannot say I am certain of which he is speaking yet.

But Jesus told them here earlier

Mark 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not

But Jesus also later told them

Mark 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

Not sure if Peter did not get that memo, and needed some further clarification through that vision which has caused him to realize this

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Salvation is of the Jews, John 4:22 and Peter, a Jew would continue to separate himself from keeping company with the Gentiles, and not be the light he is set for of the Gentiles if there was no intervening

Acts 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

whereas Paul speaks similarly on keeping company here after this manner.

1 Cr 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

So instead of it being about about Jew or Gentile it would now come down to whether any man called a brother be any of the above things when it come to keeping company with him.

The two verses prior to that last one further clarifies this is not speaking of those in the world in both are and do these things, its more specific.
 

MatthewG

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Hello to the group, and Doug,

I just remember when they were tossing lots for the next king. God was supposed to confirm it. I don't know if God confirmed Matthias as the replacement apostle. You never hear from him again. You would think we would have some of his writings or something, but why don't we?

Thank you for considering,
Matthew
 

MatthewG

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Apostle just means "one who is sent out." This must be some new wacky brand of dispensationalism.

Hello Creed,

If that is what it means then there must have been a lot of apostles, but only a certain number that was taught by Jesus? Love to know your thoughts on this.

Grace and peace,
Matthew
 

Rockerduck

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Hello to the group, and Doug,

I just remember when they were tossing lots for the next king. God was supposed to confirm it. I don't know if God confirmed Matthias as the replacement apostle. You never hear from him again. You would think we would have some of his writings or something, but why don't we?

Thank you for considering,
Matthew
In John 15:16 and John 6:70, Jesus affirms that He chose the Apostles. Peter couldn't and shouldn't have chosen anyone and then ask God to choose which one of the ones they picked out. Only God has that authority and Jesus chose Paul for the 12th Apostle.
 
M

Muna

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I am friends with fellow Christians that do not accept Saul of Tarsus , who was also known as Paul,was an Apostle.

They also do not regard the majority of New Testament Texts that are his Epistles.
They consider Matthew,Mark,John, and 1st, 2nd , and 3rd John, and Revelation.

And they also,in some cases agree with scholars who are relatively certain Apostle Peter did not write first and second Peter.

I've asked why they have come to the conclusion Saul was not anointed to be an Apostle.

Some reasons include in multiple instances he referred to his teachings as his gospel. And in one case when he arrived at a town before the other Apostles,he cursed any who would bring those town folk a different gospel .

Also, their words in paraphrase,he admitted he was a tool of the enemy. Unable to obey the gospel he taught others because the thorn in his side was the enemy.

And lastly,as I recall,Jesus anointed His Apostles personally. When replacing Judas the Apostles anointed Matthias.
They never referred to Saul as Apostle but,as brother.

Saul is claiming in thinking to bring his gospel to Gentiles that he was to overcome Peters appointment in that regard. And also,is claiming Jesus left unfinished work when ascending home to the Father.

Acts refers to Paul as an apostle

Acts 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

But I believe Luke wrote Acts, and I also know someone (who knows someone, who knows someone else) who believes Luke calls Paul an apostle and 2 Peter who calls Paul a brother are not legitimate. And I forget which others, but a few other books in the NT are not legit.
 
M

Muna

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Apostle just means "one who is sent out." This must be some new wacky brand of dispensationalism.

Jesus was sent

Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
 

ProverbsInPink

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Acts refers to Paul as an apostle

Acts 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

But I believe Luke wrote Acts, and I also know someone (who knows someone, who knows someone else) who believes Luke calls Paul an apostle and 2 Peter who calls Paul a brother are not legitimate. And I forget which others, but a few other books in the NT are not legit.
I know. The Book of the Acts of the Apostle was written by Paul's companion and physician,Luke.

The Apostles who walked with our Lord never referred to Paul as an Apostle.
 
M

Muna

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I know. The Book of the Acts of the Apostle was written by Paul's companion and physician,Luke.

The Apostles who walked with our Lord never referred to Paul as an Apostle.
Where did they ever refer to one another as an apostle? How many examples are there of this?
 
M

Muna

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They pretty much just refer to themselves as apostles in their letters, 9 letters by Paul, 2 letters by Peter (if you count his 2nd letter)


Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
1Co 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
1Co 9:1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
1Co 9:2 If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.
1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
2Co 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
2Co 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Col 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
1Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles
in faith and verity.
2Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
2Ti 1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
 
M

Muna

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Reading the chapter usually assists in giving a full contextual narrative.
You really dont need much context for the word, I am only going to do a word search myself, but I am not as lazy so I will do it, even though I hate fetching others verses they should provide, when they only provide the verse and not the chapter it doesmake me a bit more curious I'll admit.

So you are just quoting all of Paul?

I quoted Luke with Paul in it already, and you just requoted this one for some reason?

Acts.14

  1. [4] But the multitude of the city was divided: and part held with the Jews, and part with the apostles.
  2. [14] Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,
Here you quote Paul

Rom.16

  1. [7] Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

And again, you quote Paul

Why would you pick Ga1 2 over Gal 1? Paul is the one who names the names in them


Gal.1


  1. [19] But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
  2. Gal.2

    1. [8] (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:) Anything from a REAL apostle clfh
 
M

Muna

Guest
They would have to go after 2Peter's epistle to go after Paul because Peter might call Paul a beloved brother because I cannot find where any of them call each other an apostle by title whenever affectionately speaking of the other.

Peter calling him a beloved brother referring to his every epistle where Paul begins each one as, "Paul an apostle of Jesus Christ" or similar

2 Peter 3
[15] And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
[16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

2Co 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Col 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
1Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles
in faith and verity.
2Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
2Ti 1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after
 

ProverbsInPink

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You really dont need much context for the word, I am only going to do a word search myself, but I am not as lazy so I will do it, even though I hate fetching others verses they should provide, when they only provide the verse and not the chapter it doesmake me a bit more curious I'll admit.

So you are just quoting all of Paul?

I quoted Luke with Paul in it already, and you just requoted this one for some reason?

Acts.14

  1. [4] But the multitude of the city was divided: and part held with the Jews, and part with the apostles.
  2. [14] Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,
Here you quote Paul

Rom.16

  1. [7] Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

And again, you quote Paul

Why would you pick Ga1 2 over Gal 1? Paul is the one who names the names in them


Gal.1


  1. [19] But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
  2. Gal.2

    1. [8] (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:) Anything from a REAL apostle clfh
I see you're not a serious student of the word. A mocker who resorts to pejoratives.
 
M

Muna

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I did not mock the word of God, I somewhat mocked your laziness when it come to providing the direct references, none of which was anything substantial, neither did any of them need any sort of "contextual narrative" for the word apostle.

Seems more like you wanted to waste my time.