The judgement of hell came in the first century

[BrutalCross]

Everyone assumes the judgement of hell is for universal unbelievers at the end of the world, but Jesus explicitly tells us when the judgement comes and who its towards in Matthew 23.
32Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. 33You serpents, you offspring of vipers, how will you escape the judgment of Gehenna?

34Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets, wise men, and scribes. Some of them you will kill and crucify; and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom you killed between the sanctuary and the altar. 36Most certainly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Every commentator places this chapter in 70-AD, but because of traditional blinders, completely miss how verse 33 is the direct consequences of verse 32.

the meaning of "this generation" IS "THIS GENERATION!"

Pulpit commentary says:
Verse 36. - An these things. All the crimes committed by their forefathers shall be visited upon this generation by the destruction of the Jewish city and polity, which took place within forty years from this time. The blood of the past was required from the Jews of the present time, because they and their evil ancestors were of one family, and were to be dealt with as a whole. In spite of the teaching of history and example, in spite of the warnings of Christ and his apostles, they were bent on repeating the acts of their forefathers, and that in an aggravated form and against increased light and knowledge. The punishment here announced is the temporal award. Christ here says nothing of the final judgment. Matthew 23:36

John Gill sounds like he places the damnation of hell in the 1st century even though he's a traditionalist.

all these things shall come upon this generation; all the things which Christ had foretold should come to pass in the present age; as that the apostles and ministers of the word he should send to them, some of them they would kill and crucify, and others they would scourge in their synagogues, or persecute from place to place; and all the horrible murders and bloodshed in any age, committed by that people, would be placed to the account of the men of that generation; and the guilt of them imputed to them, and the punishment due unto them be inflicted on them. And which came to pass, and had its full accomplishment about forty years after this, in the utter destruction of Jerusalem, and the whole nation; so that many now living were personally involved in that temporal ruin, as well as escaped not the damnation of hell, Matthew 23:33.

Matthew Henry says

All these things shall come; all the guilt of this blood, all the punishment of it, it shall all come upon this generation. The misery and ruin that are coming upon them, shall be so very great, that, though, considering the evil of their own sins, it was less that even those deserved; yet, comparing it with other judgments, it will seem to be a general reckoning for all the wickedness of their ancestors, especially their persecutions, to all which God declared this ruin to have special reference and relation. The destruction shall be so dreadful, as if God had once for all arraigned them for all the righteous blood shed in the world. It shall come upon this generation; which intimates, that it shall come quickly; some here shall live to see it.

 

[rwb]

These words were spoken to Christ's disciples.

Matthew 24:1 (KJV) And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

When Jesus speaks of "this generation" in reference to "serpents, you offspring of vipers", without ability to escape judgment of Gehenna, are these words also directed to His disciples, He spoke to who had come out of the generation of vipers NOT ashamed of Christ and His words, to become a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, and holy nation, a peculiar people who being called out of darkness into the Light of Christ, a people of God, having obtained His mercy? Surely "this generation" cannot apply to them???

Mark 8:38 (KJV) Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

1 Peter 2:9-10 (KJV) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Doesn't "this generation" of serpents, offspring of vipers who will not escape the judgment of Gehenna continue unto the end of this age? Did this generation cease with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD? Do they not continue to produce offspring to this very day?

 

[BrutalCross]

These words were spoken to Christ's disciples.

Matthew 24:1 (KJV) And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

When Jesus speaks of "this generation" in reference to "serpents, you offspring of vipers", without ability to escape judgment of Gehenna, are these words also directed to His disciples, He spoke to who had come out of the generation of vipers NOT ashamed of Christ and His words, to become a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, and holy nation, a peculiar people who being called out of darkness into the Light of Christ, a people of God, having obtained His mercy? Surely "this generation" cannot apply to them???

Mark 8:38 (KJV) Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

1 Peter 2:9-10 (KJV) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Doesn't "this generation" of serpents, offspring of vipers who will not escape the judgment of Gehenna continue unto the end of this age? Did this generation cease with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD? Do they not continue to produce offspring to this very day?

"The natural meaning of the words is, beyond question. that which takes “generation” in the ordinary sense (as in Matthew 1:17, Acts 13:36, and elsewhere) for those who are living at any given period. So it was on “this generation” (Matthew 23:36) that the accumulated judgments were to fall. The desire to bring the words into more apparent harmony with history has led some interpreters to take “generation” in the sense of “race” or “people,” and so to see in the words a prophecy of the perpetuity of the existence of the Jews as a distinct people till the end of the world. But for this meaning there is not the shadow of authority; nor does it remove the difficulty which it was invented to explain. The words of Matthew 16:28 state the same fact in language which does not admit of any such explanation.
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

your exegesis is basically:
32Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. (1st century national judgement)
next verse:
33You serpents, you offspring of vipers, how will you escape the judgment of Gehenna? (NOT 1st century national judgement)
just in the span of ONE VERSE!!!

"offspring of vipers" is not the same statement as "this generation" which is spoken in the "near demonstrative".
so I'll ask you: did verse 32 get fulfilled in 1st century? did the pharisees finish filling up the measure of their ancestors guilt? if they did then why didn't v.32 get fulfilled at this time?
BTW even hyper futurists dispensationalists take "this generation" to be 1st century national judgement

"The present sad chapter in the days of Israel’s apostasy was the climax of the religious rulers’ long rejection of the things of God. Jesus solemnly pronounced that all these acts of rejection of God and His prophets would cause judgment to come upon this generation, which they would bring to culmination by their rejection of God’s only Son. This prophecy was tragically fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of the children of Israel over the face of the earth. Jerusalem, the city of God, and the magnificent temple, the center of their worship, were to lay in ashes as an eloquent reminder that divine judgment on hypocrisy and sin is inevitable."
- John Walvoord

Chapter 23 Jesus Condemns the Scribes and Pharisees | Walvoord.com

 

[rwb]

"The natural meaning of the words is, beyond question. that which takes “generation” in the ordinary sense (as in Matthew 1:17, Acts 13:36, and elsewhere) for those who are living at any given period. So it was on “this generation” (Matthew 23:36) that the accumulated judgments were to fall. The desire to bring the words into more apparent harmony with history has led some interpreters to take “generation” in the sense of “race” or “people,” and so to see in the words a prophecy of the perpetuity of the existence of the Jews as a distinct people till the end of the world. But for this meaning there is not the shadow of authority; nor does it remove the difficulty which it was invented to explain. The words of Matthew 16:28 state the same fact in language which does not admit of any such explanation.
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

your exegesis is basically:
32Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. (1st century national judgement)
next verse:
33You serpents, you offspring of vipers, how will you escape the judgment of Gehenna? (NOT 1st century national judgement)
just in the span of ONE VERSE!!!

"offspring of vipers" is not the same statement as "this generation" which is spoken in the "near demonstrative".
so I'll ask you: did verse 32 get fulfilled in 1st century? did the pharisees finish filling up the measure of their ancestors guilt? if they did then why didn't v.32 get fulfilled at this time?
BTW even hyper futurists dispensationalists take "this generation" to be 1st century national judgement

"The present sad chapter in the days of Israel’s apostasy was the climax of the religious rulers’ long rejection of the things of God. Jesus solemnly pronounced that all these acts of rejection of God and His prophets would cause judgment to come upon this generation, which they would bring to culmination by their rejection of God’s only Son. This prophecy was tragically fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of the children of Israel over the face of the earth. Jerusalem, the city of God, and the magnificent temple, the center of their worship, were to lay in ashes as an eloquent reminder that divine judgment on hypocrisy and sin is inevitable."
- John Walvoord

Chapter 23 Jesus Condemns the Scribes and Pharisees | Walvoord.com

If this generation is limited to natural meaning and is limited "for those who are living at any given period", to what natural generation of those living at any given period will you assign "a chosen generation"?

1 Peter 2:9 (KJV) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Writing to the churches Paul writes those chosen of God are chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blame before Him, predestinated unto the adoption of children by Christ according to the pleasure of His will. The chosen generation, who are the church, began in the first century AD and are still added to the chosen generation as time marches on.

Ephesians 1:3-5 (KJV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Since the chosen generation is not limited to natural meaning "for those who are living at any given period" why would "this generation" be limited to only those living in the first century? This generation Christ spoke of from the Mt of Olives is the opposite of the chosen generation, but both are still growing, and will continue to exist to the end of days, when the seventh/last trumpet shall sound and time for this earth shall be no longer.

 

[BrutalCross]

If this generation is limited to natural meaning and is limited "for those who are living at any given period", to what natural generation of those living at any given period will you assign "a chosen generation"?

1 Peter 2:9 (KJV) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Writing to the churches Paul writes those chosen of God are chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blame before Him, predestinated unto the adoption of children by Christ according to the pleasure of His will. The chosen generation, who are the church, began in the first century AD and are still added to the chosen generation as time marches on.

Ephesians 1:3-5 (KJV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Since the chosen generation is not limited to natural meaning "for those who are living at any given period" why would "this generation" be limited to only those living in the first century? This generation Christ spoke of from the Mt of Olives is the opposite of the chosen generation, but both are still growing, and will continue to exist to the end of days, when the seventh/last trumpet shall sound and time for this earth shall be no longer.

1 Peter 2 is not using "genea," but "genos" different Greek words bro.


This understanding of Genea as "kind" in (Matt 23:36) is untenable, for no one can possibly apply the content within this chapter to a kind of people for all time in all generations. every commentator agrees Matt 23 is 1st century. and if one thing came, then ALL things came!

36Most certainly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.

BTW don't have the misconception that I don't believe in a final general judgement, I'm not a full preterist, and I place the last day/last trumpet in the future. I don't believe equating the 7th trumpet of Revelation with the last trumpet/last day in 1 cor 15 works.

 

[bdavidc]

The judgement of hell came in the first century
Everyone assumes the judgement of hell is for universal unbelievers at the end of the world

The problem with your argument is that you are equating a local, temporal judgment on a particular generation with the final judgment of hell. But that is not how Scripture speaks. In ~Matthew 23, Jesus berated the scribes and Pharisees for their hypocrisy and unbelief and declared that they would receive judgment, and in fact they did, at the destruction of Jerusalem. But in the very next verse, Jesus was talking about Gehenna, the place of eternal fire that the Father is going to prepare for the devil and his angels ~Matthew 25:41. That cannot be a reference to an earthly event that had already passed because Gehenna is where the soul and body will be eternally destroyed ~Matthew 10:28.

In the New Testament, hell is never presented as a temporary, historical judgment; it is always presented as an eternal judgment. “Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched” ~Mark 9:48. “who will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord” ~2 Thessalonians 1:9. Revelation is also future-oriented, not past: “The dead were judged… and anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire” ~Revelation 20:12-15.

The point is, the generation of Jesus’ day was indeed subjected to temporal judgment, but that was not the judgment of hell. It was a taste of God’s righteous wrath against sin, a sign of what every nation is in for if they reject His Son. To turn eternal judgment into a local, historical event is to contradict the clear teaching of Scripture. The Word of God is clear: Gehenna, the final judgment of hell, is still in the future, and all who reject Christ will face it when they stand before the Judge.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello BrutalCross,

Im not some person who believes people goes to hell today either.

There is a total and brand new picture found in Revelation 21,22.

Grace, and Peace,
Matthew

 

[rwb]

1 Peter 2 is not using "genea," but "genos" different Greek words bro.


This understanding of Genea as "kind" in (Matt 23:36) is untenable, for no one can possibly apply the content within this chapter to a kind of people for all time in all generations. every commentator agrees Matt 23 is 1st century. and if one thing came, then ALL things came!

36Most certainly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.

BTW don't have the misconception that I don't believe in a final general judgement, I'm not a full preterist, and I place the last day/last trumpet in the future. I don't believe equating the 7th trumpet of Revelation with the last trumpet/last day in 1 cor 15 works.

I have come to understand the prophetic words of Christ, as do some partial preterits as fulfillment of complete destruction in 70 AD, with Christ also looking beyond the Jewish nation to a Christian nation/people of every nation, tribe, kindred and tongue. I don't claim to be a partial preterit, but an historicist, or one who sees the importance of history fulfilled and that which is yet to be fulfilled.

All these things describing literal physical destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple came to pass just as Christ said it would, but the "this generation" alive when judgment fell upon Jerusalem is not the generation that shall be alive to see things Christ spoke concerning His Church.

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Matthew 24:34

Verse 34. This generation, etc. This age; this race of men. A generation is about thirty or forty years. The destruction of Jerusalem took place about forty years after this was spoken. Cmt. on Mt 16:28.

Till all these things, etc. Till these things shall receive a full accomplishment. Till events shall take place that shall be a complete fulfillment, if there were nothing farther intended. He does not mean to exclude here the reference to the judgment, but to say that the destruction of Jerusalem would be such as to make appropriate the words of the prediction, were there nothing beyond. So when death was threatened to Adam, the propriety of the threatening would have been seen, and the threatening would have been fulfilled, had men suffered only temporal death. At the same time, the threatening had a fulness of meaning, that would cover also, and justify, eternal death in hell. Thus the words of Christ, describing the destruction of Jerusalem, had a fulness of signification that would meet also the events of the judgment, and whose meaning would not be filled up till the world was closed.

Gaebelein's Annoted Bible

Verse 34 has been a difficulty with many. The word generation does not mean the people who were then living; it has the meaning of "this race." (Same as 1Pe 2:9, "a chosen generation," i.e., class of peoples.) The Jewish race cannot pass away till these things be fulfilled.

With verse 45 the second part begins. It concerns Christendom. While the seven parables of the Kingdom (chapter 13) teach the beginning, the development and end of Christendom, the three parables of the Olivet discourse show the moral aspect of those who profess Christianity. The true and the false, the faithful and the unfaithful are uncovered and dealt with.

 

[soberxp]

23:39
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Many Christians who have been to modern Israel have been spat at or ridiculed by Jews,

I wonder if there any Jew who bless Christians that cometh in the name of the Lord.

 

[bdavidc]

Im not some person who believes people goes to hell today either.

There is a total and brand new picture found in Revelation 21,22.

What you’re saying is not only wrong, it flies in the face of the Word of God. Revelation 21 and 22 don’t destroy hell; they affirm it. The same passage that mentions the new heaven and the new earth also says, “the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death” ~Revelation 21:8.

You can’t preach grace and deny judgment. Jesus Himself said more about hell than anyone else in the Scripture. He said, “Fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” ~Matthew 10: 28, and “these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life” ~Matthew 25:46. If there is no hell, then Christ died for nothing.

Stop twisting the Word to make it suit your comfort. God’s truth doesn’t conform to human emotions. The gospel saves us from actual wrath, not a phony one. “It is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment” ~Hebrews 9:27.

Repent of this false teaching and return to what Scripture plainly says. There is heaven for those who are in Christ, and there is hell for those who reject Him. The fear of the Lord is still the beginning of wisdom ~Proverbs 9:10.

 

[rwb]

The point is, the generation of Jesus’ day was indeed subjected to temporal judgment, but that was not the judgment of hell. It was a taste of God’s righteous wrath against sin, a sign of what every nation is in for if they reject His Son. To turn eternal judgment into a local, historical event is to contradict the clear teaching of Scripture. The Word of God is clear: Gehenna, the final judgment of hell, is still in the future, and all who reject Christ will face it when they stand before the Judge.

In this we have agreement!

 

[soberxp]

What you’re saying is not only wrong, it flies in the face of the Word of God. Revelation 21 and 22 don’t destroy hell; they affirm it. The same passage that mentions the new heaven and the new earth also says, “the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death” ~Revelation 21:8.

You can’t preach grace and deny judgment. Jesus Himself said more about hell than anyone else in the Scripture. He said, “Fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” ~Matthew 10: 28, and “these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life” ~Matthew 25:46. If there is no hell, then Christ died for nothing.

Stop twisting the Word to make it suit your comfort. God’s truth doesn’t conform to human emotions. The gospel saves us from actual wrath, not a phony one. “It is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment” ~Hebrews 9:27.

Repent of this false teaching and return to what Scripture plainly says. There is heaven for those who are in Christ, and there is hell for those who reject Him. The fear of the Lord is still the beginning of wisdom ~Proverbs 9:10.

Brimstone has a clean meaning in some traditional cultures.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello @bdavidc,

The bible says so. Please stop commenting that I telling not the truth. Revelation 21,22 are brand new pictures. That was after hell is done away with in the prior chapter... I find you're comments just belittling but hey differences exist. By all means believe people go straight to hell. It's not like I am not taking "Revelation at its word." Because Revelation is a revealing of what was to come to that generation, and what was to forclose in becoming new. While you believe that has not yet happened.

Great.

Love you,
Matthew

 

[soberxp]

Hello @bdavidc,

The bible says so. Please stop commenting that I telling not the truth. Revelation 21,22 are brand new pictures. That was after hell is done away with in the prior chapter... I find you're comments just belittling but hey differences exist. By all means believe people go straight to hell. It's not like I am not taking "Revelation at its word." Because Revelation is a revealing of what was to come to that generation, and what was to forclose in becoming new. While you believe that has not yet happened.

Great.

Love you,
Matthew

What do you think of the second death and new earth, and the Revelation ending with,

22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

 

[MatthewG]

What do you think of the second death and new earth, and the Revelation ending with,

22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Hello Soberxp,

Jesus holds the keys to Death, and Hades. I believe Jesus overcame all things including the second death. This second death I believe he overcame happened at the cross.

The ending of Revelation was to harken back to the first chapter, again because all the things in Revelation 1-20 were going to take place, and all things were going to become new in Revelation 21,22.

That is all it means, at least to me... because people can't say people are in hell anymore because they are outside of the gates of the Kingdom according to Revelation 22, and apparently people have part in this fire, in revelation 21, but it's not like the previous chapter.

My encouragement is to read it for yourself outloud. I have several times in my life.

I stopped listening to traditionalist people and desire to try to go by the spirit of the resurrected Jesus Christ, and ask God for wisdom.

I don't mind hearing people out but there are people who are stuck in that whole traditional way they were taught. I don't find it useful by any means....

They continue to say you must be ready Jesus is coming back soon! Otherwise, you aren't gonna be loved by God, and it's a lot of emotional and mental manipulation, really.

Grace, and peace,
Matthew

 

[MatthewG]

Hello @soberxp,

Concerning the new earth, I believe we live in the new earth which is seen in a new way by means of the spirit of the resurrected Lord Jesus....

When it mentions "Sea" Why would God get rid of the sea? It's speaking of the Brazen Sea, which was part of the temple, there was no more sea. There was no more priesthoods, and things they were doing at the temple like prior.

In Jesus (in the spirit), there is no more pain, suffering, crying, or death.

Grace and peace,
Matthew

 

[soberxp]

Hello Soberxp,

Jesus holds the keys to Death, and Hades. I believe Jesus overcame all things including the second death. This second death I believe he overcame happened at the cross.

The ending of Revelation was to harken back to the first chapter, again because all the things in Revelation 1-20 were going to take place, and all things were going to become new in Revelation 21,22.

That is all it means, at least to me... because people can't say people are in hell anymore because they are outside of the gates of the Kingdom according to Revelation 22, and apparently people have part in this fire, in revelation 21, but it's not like the previous chapter.

My encouragement is to read it for yourself outloud. I have several times in my life.

I stopped listening to traditionalist people and desire to try to go by the spirit of the resurrected Jesus Christ, and ask God for wisdom.

I don't mind hearing people out but there are people who are stuck in that whole traditional way they were taught. I don't find it useful by any means....

They continue to say you must be ready Jesus is coming back soon! Otherwise, you aren't gonna be loved by God, and it's a lot of emotional and mental manipulation, really.

Grace, and peace,
Matthew

I believe that the thousand-year reign takes place here, not here.

 

[soberxp]

Hello @soberxp,

Concerning the new earth, I believe we live in the new earth which is seen in a new way by means of the spirit of the resurrected Lord Jesus....

When it mentions "Sea" Why would God get rid of the sea? It's speaking of the Brazen Sea, which was part of the temple, there was no more sea. There was no more priesthoods, and things they were doing at the temple like prior.

In Jesus (in the spirit), there is no more pain, suffering, crying, or death.

Grace and peace,
Matthew

Why do you think you will live in a new Earth, not a new heaven?

 

[MatthewG]

Hello Soberxp,

I don't believe 1000 years is literal so... I believe that generation had a total of 40 years to repent before they were taken out by God's use of the roman army.

All the best,
Matthew

 

[MatthewG]

Why do you think you will live in a new Earth, not a new heaven?

Hello @soberxp,

We do. The earth and heaven that was wiped away was that whole Mosaic age.

Thank you for your questions, I wont never change my mind on them.

Grace and peace,
Matthew