I do not read the KJV. But you tried to argue with the KJV verses against the Nicene Creed, basically.
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What I did was show that the King James violates the creeds wording, and yet there are many people that adhere to the Nicene creed that use the KJV which I think you might probably condemn as being improper when it comes to the whole "made, created" thing.
I ran the question concerning the light before the two great lights and stars through an AI search
Here is what it set out, as to how it is commonly or uncommonly understoood
The statement that God did not create the light on the first day in the same manner as the sun and stars is a perspective held by some interpretations of Genesis. According to Genesis 1:3, God commanded, "Let there be light," and immediately there was light, which He saw was good.
This initial light is described as being created directly by God's word, without a physical source like the sun, which was not created until the fourth day.
Some interpretations suggest that this first light was not a physical luminous body but rather a direct manifestation of God's presence and power, possibly even a supernatural light that existed before the creation of the sun, moon, and stars.
This view is supported by the idea that God Himself is light (1 John 1:5), and that in the future new heavens and new earth, there will be no need for the sun or moon because God will be the everlasting light.
Therefore, the light on the first day is seen by some as a unique, non-physical light created directly by God's command, distinct from the physical luminaries created later.
When God said, "Let there be light," He did not create a physical light source like the sun and stars, which were formed on the fourth day. Instead, the light on the first day is understood as a primordial light, distinct in nature and possibly brighter than the light associated with the sun, created by God's direct command before the celestial bodies were established.
This initial light is not dependent on the sun, moon, or stars, as God Himself is light, and He provided illumination for the first three days of creation.
The light described in Genesis 1:3 is seen as a manifestation of God's creative power and divine presence, a direct act of God's will.
This concept is echoed in 2 Corinthians 4:6, where Paul references God's command to "let light shine out of darkness," stating that God has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
This spiritual illumination parallels the original creation of light, symbolizing the revelation of divine truth and the transformation of the human heart, where the light of Christ dispels spiritual darkness.
The future new creation, described in Isaiah 60:19 and Revelation 22:5, further confirms that God will be the everlasting light, eliminating the need for the sun and moon, reinforcing that the original light was not merely physical but a divine, eternal presence.
The light of the first day is seen by some as a direct manifestation of God's own nature, with the apostle Paul drawing a spiritual parallel in 2 Corinthians 4:6, where he states that God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of God’s glory in the face of Christ.
This spiritual light is associated with the revelation of Christ, who is described as "the light of the world" (John 8:12) and the "true light" that gives light to everyone (John 1:9). The light created on the first day is thus viewed as a foreshadowing of this greater spiritual reality, a physical sign pointing to the divine presence and revelation found in Christ.
Some interpret the light of the first day as being connected to the Logos (the Word), the pre-existent divine being through whom all things were made (John 1:3). The idea that the first light could be the Logos is supported by the concept that God's creative word is inherently powerful and life-giving, and that the Logos, as the expression of God's will, is the source of all creation, including light.
However, others argue that the light of the first day cannot be equated with the Logos because the Logos is specifically identified as a distinct person in the Godhead, particularly in the context of the Incarnation and the revelation of God in Christ.
While the light of creation is a manifestation of God's power and glory, it is not necessarily the same as the person of the Logos, who is the eternal Son of God.
The distinction is further emphasized by the fact that the light of the first day was not dependent on the sun or stars, which were created later, and that God's presence as light is a recurring theme in Scripture, such as in Isaiah 60:19–20 and Revelation 22:5, where God Himself is the eternal light, eliminating the need for the sun or moon.
This suggests that the original light was a direct, immediate act of God's creative power, not a physical light source like the sun, and thus not identical to the "two great lights" created on the fourth day.
The interpretation of the first light as a spiritual or divine radiance, rather than a physical star, allows for a consistent understanding of the biblical narrative, where God's creative word brings forth light before the celestial bodies that would later govern the day and night.
Here is what it set out, as to how it is commonly or uncommonly understoood
The statement that God did not create the light on the first day in the same manner as the sun and stars is a perspective held by some interpretations of Genesis. According to Genesis 1:3, God commanded, "Let there be light," and immediately there was light, which He saw was good.
This initial light is described as being created directly by God's word, without a physical source like the sun, which was not created until the fourth day.
Some interpretations suggest that this first light was not a physical luminous body but rather a direct manifestation of God's presence and power, possibly even a supernatural light that existed before the creation of the sun, moon, and stars.
This view is supported by the idea that God Himself is light (1 John 1:5), and that in the future new heavens and new earth, there will be no need for the sun or moon because God will be the everlasting light.
Therefore, the light on the first day is seen by some as a unique, non-physical light created directly by God's command, distinct from the physical luminaries created later.
When God said, "Let there be light," He did not create a physical light source like the sun and stars, which were formed on the fourth day. Instead, the light on the first day is understood as a primordial light, distinct in nature and possibly brighter than the light associated with the sun, created by God's direct command before the celestial bodies were established.
This initial light is not dependent on the sun, moon, or stars, as God Himself is light, and He provided illumination for the first three days of creation.
The light described in Genesis 1:3 is seen as a manifestation of God's creative power and divine presence, a direct act of God's will.
This concept is echoed in 2 Corinthians 4:6, where Paul references God's command to "let light shine out of darkness," stating that God has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
This spiritual illumination parallels the original creation of light, symbolizing the revelation of divine truth and the transformation of the human heart, where the light of Christ dispels spiritual darkness.
The future new creation, described in Isaiah 60:19 and Revelation 22:5, further confirms that God will be the everlasting light, eliminating the need for the sun and moon, reinforcing that the original light was not merely physical but a divine, eternal presence.
The light of the first day is seen by some as a direct manifestation of God's own nature, with the apostle Paul drawing a spiritual parallel in 2 Corinthians 4:6, where he states that God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of God’s glory in the face of Christ.
This spiritual light is associated with the revelation of Christ, who is described as "the light of the world" (John 8:12) and the "true light" that gives light to everyone (John 1:9). The light created on the first day is thus viewed as a foreshadowing of this greater spiritual reality, a physical sign pointing to the divine presence and revelation found in Christ.
Some interpret the light of the first day as being connected to the Logos (the Word), the pre-existent divine being through whom all things were made (John 1:3). The idea that the first light could be the Logos is supported by the concept that God's creative word is inherently powerful and life-giving, and that the Logos, as the expression of God's will, is the source of all creation, including light.
However, others argue that the light of the first day cannot be equated with the Logos because the Logos is specifically identified as a distinct person in the Godhead, particularly in the context of the Incarnation and the revelation of God in Christ.
While the light of creation is a manifestation of God's power and glory, it is not necessarily the same as the person of the Logos, who is the eternal Son of God.
The distinction is further emphasized by the fact that the light of the first day was not dependent on the sun or stars, which were created later, and that God's presence as light is a recurring theme in Scripture, such as in Isaiah 60:19–20 and Revelation 22:5, where God Himself is the eternal light, eliminating the need for the sun or moon.
This suggests that the original light was a direct, immediate act of God's creative power, not a physical light source like the sun, and thus not identical to the "two great lights" created on the fourth day.
The interpretation of the first light as a spiritual or divine radiance, rather than a physical star, allows for a consistent understanding of the biblical narrative, where God's creative word brings forth light before the celestial bodies that would later govern the day and night.
soberxp
Well-Known Member
What you did was asking "Where does the idea come from to that you cannot use the words made or created in relation to Jesus Christ" in your post #39.
If you meant that you believe the Logos was not made or created even though some KJV verses use the word "made", then... fine, even though I am not sure what kind of point is that.
I'm afraid this Ai was made by God....
And All things that exist were created by this AI
That made no sense whatsover
soberxp
Well-Known Member
Before AI was made, was it created by God or made by humans? If it was created by God, then...All things were made through Ai.
I used the wrong word......
I asked where does the whole idea come from because of how some Nicene creeders behave over words, they drive me bonkers,
I'll give you an example,
I got banned off a forum for this VERSE
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
And YES, no matter how much I protested I did not write it, I got the creed thrown at me because "I believe God made Jesus both Lord and Christ and literally had to answer it (as crazy as that sounds) its true. I saved the actual behind the scenes grilling session because I didnt think anyone would believe me if I told them this. I typically underline because it helps with my eyes, but that got under their skin the worse that I highlighted (like what was I trying to prove) and they wanted to know why.
So I think a few of these people are overly uptight about these things.
No, I do not believe He is created, but I wouldnt read the words made as meaning it the way they might believe it might strictly apply (and so uch be rejected). I would sooner reject them.
soberxp
Well-Known Member
But if Ai was not made by God but by human,then we are gods....the image of God.
So do we not made by God?
Are you lost again?
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Well, as long as we understand the difference between the eternal Logos and the bodily incarnation of the Logos...
Some out of the context verses, used in a wrong time or place, can be provocative, for sure.
Is it considered wrong to borrow borrow Gen 1:3 and show Christ by it?
Because here it says
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
Here God speaks forth light
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Who comes into the world a light
And of him it also says,
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
There is Gen 1:3 being shown with God commanding the light and the same in the face of Jesus Christ
2 Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
Pertaining to Christ in you
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man
Who would feel this violates, the Father, or the Son, or the scriptures in using these
Because here it says
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
Here God speaks forth light
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Who comes into the world a light
And of him it also says,
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
There is Gen 1:3 being shown with God commanding the light and the same in the face of Jesus Christ
2 Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
Pertaining to Christ in you
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man
Who would feel this violates, the Father, or the Son, or the scriptures in using these
In Genesis 1:3 narrative, the light did not exist and had to be created.
2 Cor 4:6 is just saying that as in that narrative the light shone out of darkness, so also the glory of God shines in our hearts.
No need to complicate things with reading too much into it.
soberxp
Well-Known Member
Not me, we are all gods,and God is God of God.
Or
Jesus Christ and we are all creature.
If we are gods then God became me in the image of me.
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I do not use technical theological jargon, because thats just not my thing, so I might not know what you are talking about unless you use the words in scripture with me in plain speak. I cannot do the dictionary to someones mouth, I am far too stupid for that, and so its not going to springs of living water to me.
I don't worry so much about all the technicalities there might be, I think doing that would drain the life out of me.
I wouldnt think twice about posting it, or caring whether the light was created or uncreated only that it is beautiful as shown in Jesus Christ.
I was asking because I know your lurking and are an in depth word studier and can help me find fault with the technical aspects of the verses
The term "Logos"? It is what John used in his Prologue. "En arché én ho Logos kai ho Logos én pros ton Theon" (J 1:1) etc.
It was a specific theological/philosophical term in the Hellenistic world. Just translating it as "Word" drops this background meaning.
Jesus created everything, knowing everything. There are no 'accidents' with God. Everything is happening as He planned it! This world is DOOMED! Payday is coming soon.
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