Not a future seeing Jesus coming guy

[MatthewG]

Im not a future jesus coming through the clouds today guy.

I believe its apparent for most on the board I am not.

Jesus walked around and reading those Gospels he talked to the Jews.
Paul wrote to saints.

there is no saints today.

Not gonna change - some call it pride.

Im thankful that the end-times are over with and that the only end time that remains is death.

When ever that is -- who knows. Its important to walk in teh resurrected Lord Jesus, and love faithfully walking by his spirit.

"All of us are creating the world we want to live in."

 

[Douggg]

Matthew, could you summarize that video. I started watching, but the speaker seemed to be speaking about other topics and was not making any sense.

 

[HealthyShape]

IOW, apparently, in your mind it not reasonable that any prophets ever echoed what earlier prophets have said? Speaking of Zechariah.

Matthew 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;


This says Jeremiah initially spoke these words. Where then in the book of Jeremiah can we find these words?

Guess what though?

Zechariah 11:12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.


Except Zechariah is not Jeremiah, yet it is obvious that what Zechariah 14:13-24 is referring to is what Matthew 27:9 is referring to.

With that in mind unless you dispute Zechariah 11:12-13 is meaning Matthew 27:9, we then need to apply the same logic to the following.

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


First of all, no one except for maybe Preterists would insist Jude 1:14-15 has already been fulfilled. Jude 1:14 says Enoch initially spoke these words. Yet the only thing we can find in the OT that matches these words is Zechariah 14:5 and this---and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Therefore, Zechariah 14:5 can't have already been fulfilled because Jude 1:14-15 hasn't already been fulfilled.

What is one going to do here? Be inconsistent about things by insisting Zechariah was echoing Jeremiah in Zechariah 11:12-13 but wasn't echoing Enoch in Zechariah 14:5? That's called cherry picking if one does decide to do that. Clearly though, Zechariah 14:5 involves the future coming of Christ because Jude 1:14-15 involves the future coming of Christ. It's that simple. It's called interpreting Scripture with Scripture, yet you insist that the NT is silent in regards to anything recorded in Zechariah 14.

More proof you are wrong that the NT does not echo any of Zechariah 14, is by comparing some of the following with some of the following.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Compare with...

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him :

Notice that it says shall serve Him rather than them, keeping in mind 2 entities are in view. Where in my mind agrees with one Lord and His name one.

Say it in one sentence. Why is Zech 14 never a part of the New Testament eschatology?

 

[MatthewG]

Zechariah 14 is rarely cited in New Testament eschatology because its apocalyptic imagery—like a physical reign in Jerusalem and annual Feast of Tabernacles observance—is often interpreted symbolically or fulfilled spiritually in Christ, making it less central to the NT's focus on a universal, heavenly kingdom.

An Amillennial Interpretation of Zechariah 14 (1 of 8)

Post #1 “The Need for an Amillennial Approach” The last chapter of Zechariah tends to be neglected by amillennialists, especially in comparison to the emphasis given it by premillennialists. While amillennialists anticipate a single consummation and glorification of God’s kingdom in connection...

cbtseminary.org

The Eschatology of Zechariah 14 – The Coming of the Lord With His Saints – DonKPreston.com

donkpreston.com

 

[Douggg]

Zechariah 14 is rarely cited in New Testament eschatology because its apocalyptic imagery—like a physical reign in Jerusalem and annual Feast of Tabernacles observance—is often interpreted symbolically or fulfilled spiritually in Christ, making it less central to the NT's focus on a universal, heavenly kingdom.

No way is the Lord standing on the mount of Olives, splitting it half, making way for the Jews to escape through is symbolic, not a literal event that is going to happen at Jesus's return.

The Jews and Jerusalem play a significant role in end times events.

 

[claninja]

More proof you are wrong that the NT does not echo any of Zechariah 14, is by comparing some of the following with some of the following.

I think the point is that there are no NT passages that quote Zechariah 14 and then use language like “and this fulfilled the words of Zechariah”. So, Objectively, it’s hard to pin down how the NT expects Zechariah 14 to be fulfilled, if at all.

You may argue Zechariah 14 is echoed in Jude 1 - “coming with the holy ones”. Others may argue Zechariah 14 is echoed in John 7:37-39 - “the living waters”. However, neither of these NT say they directly quote Zechariah 14, objectively.

So based on your above argument, would you agree that John 7:37-39 is echoing Zechariah 14:8?

 

[HealthyShape]

No way is the Lord standing on the mount of Olives, splitting it half, making way for the Jews to escape through is symbolic, not a literal event that is going to happen at Jesus's return.

The Jews and Jerusalem play a significant role in end times events.

But this is not the teaching of the New Testament. And that is your problem which you can not deal with. You ignore it...

The NT does not mention this prophecy at all, like if it had nothing to do with the last days. Or, like if it added nothing to the New Testament eschatology.

 

[Douggg]

But this is not the teaching of the New Testament. And that is your problem which you can not deal with. You ignore it...

The NT does not mention this prophecy at all, like if it had nothing to do with the last days. Or, like if it added nothing to the New Testament eschatology.

I think the point is that there are no NT passages that quote Zechariah 14 and then use language like “and this fulfilled the words of Zechariah”. So, Objectively, it’s hard to pin down how the NT expects Zechariah 14 to be fulfilled, if at all.

Here is how it is going to be fulfilled.

1290 days from when the abomination of desolation statue image is placed on the temple mount, the sign of the Son of Man (Matthew 24:30a) will appear in heaven. It will be Jesus, sickle in hand, Revelation 14:14, His intentions clear, to avenge the deaths of the great tribulation martyrs as they asked in Revelation 6:9-10.

The kings of the earth will be terrified by His appearance, as described in the sixth seal of Revelation 6:12-17.

In reaction, in Revelation 16:14-16, the kings of the earth gather their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war against Jesus. The preparation will be for 45 days (day 1290 to day 1335 of Daniel 12:11-12).

Part of that preparation is where Zechariah 14 comes in. The kings of the earth will surround Jerusalem with their armies, and take half of the city as hostages (captivity). Zechariah 14:2.

The reason for the focus on Jerusalem is because that is where Satan will be, indwelling the statue image making it speak and appear to come to life. And where the false prophet and the beast-king will be (Daniel 11:45 says he will meet his end on the glorious holy mountain, the temple mount).

Jesus will descend to earth, 1335 days from when the abomination of desolation is placed on the temple mount. The last day of the 7 years, day 2520. His return in power and great glory, Matthew 24:30b.

He will descend to stand on the mount of Olives, splitting it in half. The hostages will escape through the valley created.

The statue image of the beast, Jesus will cause to go up in flames, turned to ashes, exposing Satan, as the kings of the earth look on, Ezekiel 28:16-19.

Then the false prophet and the beast-king will be cast into the lake of fire. And the armies surrounding Jerusalem destroyed by the words of Jesus. And the armies filling the rest of Israel, destroyed by an angel also given a sickle in Revelation 14:17-20, the blood flowing up to a horse's bridle deep, for 200 miles.

An angel will then descend from heaven, bind up Satan, and cast him into the bottomless pit, Revelation 20:1-3.

So there is the explanation of the fulfillment of Zechariah 14, the mount of Olives split by Jesus on the day He returns.

 

[claninja]

Here is how it is going to be fulfilled.

1290 days from when the abomination of desolation statue image is placed on the temple mount, the sign of the Son of Man (Matthew 24:30a) will appear in heaven. It will be Jesus, sickle in hand, Revelation 14:14, His intentions clear, to avenge the deaths of the great tribulation martyrs as they asked in Revelation 6:9-10.

The kings of the earth will be terrified by His appearance, as described in the sixth seal of Revelation 6:12-17.

In reaction, in Revelation 16:14-16, the kings of the earth gather their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war against Jesus. The preparation will be for 45 days (day 1290 to day 1335 of Daniel 12:11-12).

Part of that preparation is where Zechariah 14 comes in. The kings of the earth will surround Jerusalem with their armies, and take half of the city as hostages (captivity). Zechariah 14:2.

The reason for the focus on Jerusalem is because that is where Satan will be, indwelling the statue image making it speak and appear to come to life. And where the false prophet and the beast-king will be (Daniel 11:45 says he will meet his end on the glorious holy mountain, the temple mount).

Jesus will descend to earth, 1335 days from when the abomination of desolation is placed on the temple mount. The last day of the 7 years, day 2520. His return in power and great glory, Matthew 24:30b.

He will descend to stand on the mount of Olives, splitting it in half. The hostages will escape through the valley created.

The statue image of the beast, Jesus will cause to go up in flames, turned to ashes, exposing Satan, as the kings of the earth look on, Ezekiel 28:16-19.

Then the false prophet and the beast-king will be cast into the lake of fire. And the armies surrounding Jerusalem destroyed by the words of Jesus. And the armies filling the rest of Israel, destroyed by an angel also given a sickle in Revelation 14:17-20, the blood flowing up to a horse's bridle deep, for 200 miles.

An angel will then descend from heaven, bind up Satan, and cast him into the bottomless pit, Revelation 20:1-3.

So there is the explanation of the fulfillment of Zechariah 14, the mount of Olives split by Jesus on the day He returns.

The scriptures are not a jigsaw puzzle to solve. But if they were this is the most convoluted attempt at fitting together mismatching pieces that I’ve ever seen.

None of this is taught in the NT.

 

[Douggg]

The scriptures are not a jigsaw puzzle to solve. But if they were this is the most convoluted attempt at fitting together mismatching pieces that I’ve ever seen.

None of this is taught in the NT.

I suggest you go back through my narrative, and read in the bible each of the bible passages I referenced, as you go.

 

[Davidpt]

You may argue Zechariah 14 is echoed in Jude 1 - “coming with the holy ones”. Others may argue Zechariah 14 is echoed in John 7:37-39 - “the living waters”. However, neither of these NT say they directly quote Zechariah 14, objectively.

So based on your above argument, would you agree that John 7:37-39 is echoing Zechariah 14:8?

No I wouldn't argue that since there is something better from the NT to argue with, meaning Revelation 22:1.

Let me show some of my reasoning.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.


This verse is a contradiction if verse 9 is literally true when the following verse below is true at the time. It matters zero how one might interpret 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


No way when you add 2 Thessalonians 2:4 do you then end up with---in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. Therefore, Zechariah 14:9 has to be meaning once 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is no longer true.

Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.


And that this is clearly meaning when Zechariah 14:9 is meaning. And that Revelation 22:1 that I brought up is not meaning when 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is meaning. It is meaning after 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is no longer true. As to John 7:37-39, that is valid all throughout the NT church era. Which could mean it's valid all the way up to His return in the end of this age, or that it's only valid all the way up until 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is initially true. Either way Zechariah 14:8 is not meaning during the NT church era since it is involving Zechariah 14:9 and that verse 9 can't be fulfilled until after 2 Thessalonians 2:4 has been fulfilled in it's entirety first.

 

[Davidpt]

Say it in one sentence. Why is Zech 14 never a part of the New Testament eschatology?

I have no clue what you are requesting me to do here?

 

[Marilyn C]

I think the point is that there are no NT passages that quote Zechariah 14 and then use language like “and this fulfilled the words of Zechariah”. So, Objectively, it’s hard to pin down how the NT expects Zechariah 14 to be fulfilled, if at all.

You may argue Zechariah 14 is echoed in Jude 1 - “coming with the holy ones”. Others may argue Zechariah 14 is echoed in John 7:37-39 - “the living waters”. However, neither of these NT say they directly quote Zechariah 14, objectively.

So based on your above argument, would you agree that John 7:37-39 is echoing Zechariah 14:8?

Actually claninja Acts 1: 11 & 12 refer to this Mount of Olives and the Lord returning there.

"Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing into heaven? This same Jesus who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

Then they returned to Jerusalem from the Mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem. a Sabbath day`s journey.` (Acts 1: 11 & 12)

 

[HealthyShape]

I have no clue what you are requesting me to do here?

To answer the question, simply and shortly.

 

[HealthyShape]

Here is how it is going to be fulfilled.

1290 days from when the abomination of desolation statue image is placed on the temple mount, the sign of the Son of Man (Matthew 24:30a) will appear in heaven. It will be Jesus, sickle in hand, Revelation 14:14, His intentions clear, to avenge the deaths of the great tribulation martyrs as they asked in Revelation 6:9-10.

The kings of the earth will be terrified by His appearance, as described in the sixth seal of Revelation 6:12-17.

In reaction, in Revelation 16:14-16, the kings of the earth gather their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war against Jesus. The preparation will be for 45 days (day 1290 to day 1335 of Daniel 12:11-12).

Part of that preparation is where Zechariah 14 comes in. The kings of the earth will surround Jerusalem with their armies, and take half of the city as hostages (captivity). Zechariah 14:2.

The reason for the focus on Jerusalem is because that is where Satan will be, indwelling the statue image making it speak and appear to come to life. And where the false prophet and the beast-king will be (Daniel 11:45 says he will meet his end on the glorious holy mountain, the temple mount).

Jesus will descend to earth, 1335 days from when the abomination of desolation is placed on the temple mount. The last day of the 7 years, day 2520. His return in power and great glory, Matthew 24:30b.

He will descend to stand on the mount of Olives, splitting it in half. The hostages will escape through the valley created.

The statue image of the beast, Jesus will cause to go up in flames, turned to ashes, exposing Satan, as the kings of the earth look on, Ezekiel 28:16-19.

Then the false prophet and the beast-king will be cast into the lake of fire. And the armies surrounding Jerusalem destroyed by the words of Jesus. And the armies filling the rest of Israel, destroyed by an angel also given a sickle in Revelation 14:17-20, the blood flowing up to a horse's bridle deep, for 200 miles.

An angel will then descend from heaven, bind up Satan, and cast him into the bottomless pit, Revelation 20:1-3.

So there is the explanation of the fulfillment of Zechariah 14, the mount of Olives split by Jesus on the day He returns.

This is your teaching, put together from various places like a Lego.

But this teaching is not found in the New Testament, that is your huge problem you can not deal with in any other way than saying "it was hidden till I appeared and discovered it".

 

[HealthyShape]

Actually claninja Acts 1: 11 & 12 refer to this Mount of Olives and the Lord returning there.

"Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing into heaven? This same Jesus who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

Then they returned to Jerusalem from the Mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem. a Sabbath day`s journey.` (Acts 1: 11 & 12)

"In like manner" is not "to the same place". So you are reading too much into it. You are subconsciously connecting associations you have from other sources and reading it into it.

 

[Marilyn C]

"In like manner" is not "to the same place". So you are reading too much into it. You are subconsciously connecting associations you have from other sources and reading it into it.

Hi HS, the disciples and Jesus were actually standing on the Mount of Olives. When Jesus ascended the two men standing by told the disciples that Jesus would return again to that same place - the Mount of Olives.

 

[Douggg]

This is your teaching, put together from various places like a Lego.

But this teaching is not found in the New Testament, that is your huge problem you can not deal with in any other way than saying "it was hidden till I appeared and discovered it".

Understanding of the events of the end times requires that the entire bible be factored in. Not just the New Testament.

The little horn person in Daniel 8, for example, is time of the end (Daniel 8:17).

In the New Testament, where is the little horn term found? It is not.

So, not being specifically referenced in old testament little horn terms in the New Testament does not mean that the little horn person will not be a part of end time events. He will be the prime arch villain of the end times.

 

[Muna]

This is your teaching, put together from various places like a Lego.

You dissed "the Lego"

 

[HealthyShape]

Understanding of the events of the end times requires that the entire bible be factored in. Not just the New Testament.

The little horn person in Daniel 8, for example, is time of the end (Daniel 8:17).

In the New Testament, where is the little horn term found? It is not.

So, not being specifically referenced in old testament little horn terms in the New Testament does not mean that the little horn person will not be a part of end time events. He will be the prime arch villain of the end times.

I think we are running in circles :) You repeat your views and I repeat that these views are not the New Testament eschatology...