Is your faith defined by what you DON'T believe? - The anti-doctrinal stance

[Lambano]

And nobody has the faith to believe until God gives it to them to begin with;

EPH 2:8* For by grace are ye saved through faith; and THAT not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

This one always comes up in the Calvinism/Arminian debates, and it's one of my pet peeves. Please look at the Greek for Ephesians 2:8. "That" (touto) is neuter. "Faith" (pistis) is a feminine noun. Therefore, by the rules of Greek grammar, "that" cannot refer to "faith". The gift is not "faith", the gift is the compound (which would get the neuter demonstrative pronoun) "salvation by grace through faith".

 

[Lambano]

As I said in the previous post, "different individuals have a variable personal capacity to embrace the unknown."
Or the ability to trust in something bigger than themselves.

This can be somewhat of an innate ability, a result of environment, or spiritual maturity.

And sometimes a life of hard lessons and betrayals beats it out of you.

 

[St. SteVen]

And sometimes a life of hard lessons and betrayals beats it out of you.

Good point.
When you are at the bottom, the only way out is upward.

[

 

[Lizbeth]

Yes
2 Cr 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.


Here is the context

2Thes.3​

[1] Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:
[2] And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
[3] But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

The new testament scripture is about faith in Jesus Christ



But I wouldnt call faith in demons faith, or faith in strange gods, or faith in men faith. I thought we are taking about true faith.

Deut 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.




No, its not true faith, and who doesnt know people do not displace their trust, the measure of faith God gives the body is not that which pertains to other gods, but in Jesus Christ by whom we come to God.

Edit: typo

Amen. And the faith that is "not of our own comes" from God/Christ, His Spirit, and is faith in Him, not in any other.

 

[amigo de christo]

Amen. And the faith that is "not of our own comes" from God/Christ, His Spirit, and is faith in Him, not in any other.

YES INDEED dear sister . We shall POINT TO CHRIST JESUS to the last and final breath .

 

[Lizbeth]

Reading this forum, or any Christian forum it is easy to see those defined by what they don't believe.
Scan the topic titles and you can see it. Read a thread and see respondents lining up on either side of a doctrinal issue.

This may be an opportunity for some self-examination. (for me too)

Is your faith defined by what you believe, or by what you DON'T believe?

Do you make a career out of being anti-doctrinal?

[

I do believe that our faith should be more about what and Who we have faith in, and that should be our focus, more than focusing on and railing on the things or beliefs that we are against as believers. Because the package of truths that pertain to Christ and the gospel is the only antidote for the things we are against. It is possible to fall into a trap of majoring in what we are against rather than in what and Who we have faith in. That said, there should be a right balance, because there are things for sure that God Himself is against and the bible does indeed contain much instruction, reproof and rebuke concerning those things. Jesus said He didn't come to bring peace, but a sword. Conflict with the unbelieving world is unavoidable if we are serving the Lord without compromising....and of course the sword that brings the conflict is His word of TRUTH. Beware when all men speak well of you.

 

[Lizbeth]

YES INDEED dear sister . We shall POINT TO CHRIST JESUS to the last and final breath .

Brother, unfortunately I see a lot of believers who are guilty of the "lightness" and taking Him "lightly" that God speaks against in His word. They remind me of the Corinthians who were even taking pride in their self-righteous tolerance of the sin in their camp, that Paul had to correct. Kind of a childish kind of rebelliousness in some cases that strikes me as immaturity. I believe God will tolerate and longsuffer it for a while, as long as the person grows out of that attitude and learns to know better, but if they don't, it will not end well. There is an Adversary who is not fooling around, he is playing for keeps. There is no room for "lightness" in a war.

 

[Behold]

Yes
2 Cr 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

The "wicked men" would be those who have no faith in Christ.

The "ungodly".

 

[Hillsage]

Is it part of metric system ? You'd have Trusts, milli-Trusts, kilo-Trusts, mega-Trusts, and giga-Trusts.

That was the same question I asked myself. I just did a search on 'etymology of metric' and it sounds like the answer is definitely a yes for both the Greek and French word roots for 'metric'. So I am still of the opinion that we are not talking about a floating measurement of a meter or "measure of faith". But, there may be a difference in a 'literal' or physical faith definition, versus a 'symbolic' or spiritual faith definition.

 

[amigo de christo]

I do believe that our faith should be more about what and Who we have faith in, and that should be our focus, more than focusing on and railing on the things or beliefs that we are against as believers. Because the package of truths that pertain to Christ and the gospel is the only antidote for the things we are against. It is possible to fall into a trap of majoring in what we are against rather than in what and Who we have faith in. That said, there should be a right balance, because there are things for sure that God Himself is against and the bible does indeed contain much instruction, reproof and rebuke concerning those things. Jesus said He didn't come to bring peace, but a sword. Conflict with the unbelieving world is unavoidable if we are serving the Lord without compromising....and of course the sword that brings the conflict is His word of TRUTH. Beware when all men speak well of you.

careful sister . for i seen the words of t hose who decieved this people into not correcting in one of your setences .
Of course that dont mean you are wrong if it is used correctly .
But this Idea of folks focusing on and railing on the thin gs or beleifs that we are against
IS HOW THEY SHUT DOWN the correcters .
So allow me one question . do you see me and my approach in any way as a railer
OR do you see me simply doing all i can to HELP this people . cause it is the latter i do .
NOT saying i am perfect or GOD or should not be teseted . NO I say i should always be tested and etc .
But i know i am grave and very direct and very to the point and I KNOW that can be twisted to be seen
as though i be a railer . WHEN i am no railer .
IN Fact when i look to CHRIST and all HE DID and how he warned
and when i also look to men such as paul , as peter , as james , as jude
I SEE MY SELF as only far less grave than they all were . WE GOT no idea what christendom has lost .
BUT YES i do know there are railers too . They can easily be seen and dealt with too sister

 

[Lizbeth]

This one always comes up in the Calvinism/Arminian debates, and it's one of my pet peeves. Please look at the Greek for Ephesians 2:8. "That" (touto) is neuter. "Faith" (pistis) is a feminine noun. Therefore, by the rules of Greek grammar, "that" cannot refer to "faith". The gift is not "faith", the gift is the compound (which would get the neuter demonstrative pronoun) "salvation by grace through faith".

Neither grace, nor salvation, nor faith are of ourselves....they are all the gift of God. I knew when I was saved that the faith to believe/accept Christ was not of me, well before I knew about that verse. My faith was a miracle of His grace......I went in not believing and inexplicably walked out believing/seeing/knowing the Lord and rejoicing in Him.

 

[Lambano]

Neither grace, nor salvation, nor faith are of ourselves....they are all the gift of God. I knew when I was saved that the faith to believe/accept Christ was not of me, well before I knew about that verse. My faith was a miracle of His grace......I went in not believing and inexplicably walked out believing/seeing/knowing the Lord and rejoicing in Him.

Sister @Ritajanice had a similar testimony. However, if you accept that humans are not capable of faith unless God gives it to them, then you have to accept that God does not want those without faith to be saved, and the Gospel is a lie. God does not so love the world, and Christ did not die for their sins. If my faith is defined by what I don't believe, THAT one is on the top of my list of things I don't believe.

 

[Lizbeth]

careful sister . for i seen the words of t hose who decieved this people into not correcting in one of your setences .
Of course that dont mean you are wrong if it is used correctly .
But this Idea of folks focusing on and railing on the thin gs or beleifs that we are against
IS HOW THEY SHUT DOWN the correcters .
So allow me one question . do you see me and my approach in any way as a railer
OR do you see me simply doing all i can to HELP this people . cause it is the latter i do .
NOT saying i am perfect or GOD or should not be teseted . NO I say i should always be tested and etc .
But i know i am grave and very direct and very to the point and I KNOW that can be twisted to be seen
as though i be a railer . WHEN i am no railer .
IN Fact when i look to CHRIST and all HE DID and how he warned
and when i also look to men such as paul , as peter , as james , as jude
I SEE MY SELF as only far less grave than they all were . WE GOT no idea what christendom has lost .
BUT YES i do know there are railers too . They can easily be seen and dealt with too sister

People can use the same words but not mean quite the same thing by it.....the devil uses scripture and so do we, but that doesn't mean we and the devil are on the same page with it. What I mean by railing there is harping and focusing on, but I am not sure if that is the official definition...I suppose I should look it up. A church that constantly rails (harps) on its pet peeves that have to do with this fallen world (eg, homosexuality, abortion, politics, etc) is neglecting the message of the gospel and even putting a stumbling block in the way. Fine to include discussion about sins/errors/deceptions in the overall conversation or message, but if all one does is point out people's wrongs, it leaves them without the solution to their problem. It can lead to a self-righteous attitude as well, or maybe that is what it sometimes comes from to begin with.

People really can form a "denomination" around an isolated truth or what they are against. But our faith is not based on anything that is wrong with the church or the world, but is based on something and someone Who is right.

 

[Lizbeth]

Sister @Ritajanice had a similar testimony. However, if you accept that humans are not capable of faith unless God gives it to them, then you have to accept that God does not want those without faith to be saved, and the Gospel is a lie. God does not so love the world, and Christ did not die for their sins. If my faith is defined by what I don't believe, THAT one is on the top of my list of things I don't believe.

I think the Lord meets us where we are in our helplessness.....in answer to a heart that is seeking Him. And it starts to seek Him because at some point somehow He begins to draw the person, as the scripture says.

 

[amigo de christo]

People can use the same words but not mean quite the same thing by it.....the devil uses scripture and so do we, but that doesn't mean we and the devil are on the same page with it. What I mean by railing there is harping and focusing on, but I am not sure if that is the official definition...I suppose I should look it up. A church that constantly rails (harps) on its pet peeves that have to do with this fallen world (eg, homosexuality, abortion, politics, etc) is neglecting the message of the gospel and even putting a stumbling block in the way. Fine to include discussion about sins/errors/deceptions in the overall conversation or message, but if all one does is point out people's wrongs, it leaves them without the solution to their problem. It can lead to a self-righteous attitude as well, or maybe that is what it sometimes comes from to begin with.

People really can form a "denomination" around an isolated truth or what they are against. But our faith is not based on anything that is wrong with the church or the world, but is based on something and someone Who is right.

spot on right . i would add only this , you forgot to mention the something and someone who is right by NAME
though i KNEW FULL well what you meant . JESUS THE CHRIST and HIS teachings

 

[ProverbsInPink]

We spend so much time here tearing each other apart that the atheists needn't bother.

And yet,it is my belief they join,identify as one of us,and try their best to do that.

 

[Lizbeth]

Sister @Ritajanice had a similar testimony. However, if you accept that humans are not capable of faith unless God gives it to them, then you have to accept that God does not want those without faith to be saved, and the Gospel is a lie. God does not so love the world, and Christ did not die for their sins. If my faith is defined by what I don't believe, THAT one is on the top of my list of things I don't believe.

We are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God"........He foreknows us....as I understand it, He foreknows who will accept Him and who will not. On two separate occasions I could see the Lord was drawing two people that I know, a few years ago, my two sisters. There were even tears as we talked. In the end they each resisted His Spirit. It was sad to see. I am not giving up on them though.

 

[Marvelloustime]

spot on right . i would add only this , you forgot to mention the something and someone who is right by NAME
though i KNEW FULL well what you meant . JESUS THE CHRIST and HIS teachings

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

careful sister . for i seen the words of t hose who decieved this people into not correcting in one of your setences .
Of course that dont mean you are wrong if it is used correctly .
But this Idea of folks focusing on and railing on the thin gs or beleifs that we are against
IS HOW THEY SHUT DOWN the correcters .
So allow me one question . do you see me and my approach in any way as a railer
OR do you see me simply doing all i can to HELP this people . cause it is the latter i do .
NOT saying i am perfect or GOD or should not be teseted . NO I say i should always be tested and etc .
But i know i am grave and very direct and very to the point and I KNOW that can be twisted to be seen
as though i be a railer . WHEN i am no railer .
IN Fact when i look to CHRIST and all HE DID and how he warned
and when i also look to men such as paul , as peter , as james , as jude
I SEE MY SELF as only far less grave than they all were . WE GOT no idea what christendom has lost .
BUT YES i do know there are railers too . They can easily be seen and dealt with too sister

@amigo de christo

 

[Hillsage]

This one always comes up in the Calvinism/Arminian debates, and it's one of my pet peeves. Please look at the Greek for Ephesians 2:8. "That" (touto) is neuter. "Faith" (pistis) is a feminine noun. Therefore, by the rules of Greek grammar, "that" cannot refer to "faith". The gift is not "faith", the gift is the compound (which would get the neuter demonstrative pronoun) "salvation by grace through faith".

Lambano, I know this is hard to read, and it was a pain to type. But what I did type twice yesterday did not send as pasted, after I hit POST. Below is the URL for the website I used to parse Eph 2:8.

Ephesians 2:8 - Original Greek Text

Ancient Greek (biblical / classical) material including: Online texts (accented Greek New Testament), Shopping for printed materials, and Resources for learning and studying Ancient Greek.

www.greekbible.com

line 1 is literal line 2 is Greek and line 3 is the fem/mas/neut

---the--for----grace--I am-----I save------through--faith----even---this-----not---out--from you--God------------------
8-τῇ---γὰρ---χάριτί--ἐστε---σεσῳσμένοι---διὰ-----πίστεως--καὶ--τοῦτο--- οὐκ---ἐξ--- ὑμῶν----θεοῦ-----------------
--fem--fem----fem--------------mas-----------------fem------------neut----------------------------mas-----------------

-the---gift.
-τὸ---δῶρον
neut---neut

So it appears to me that "grace" and "faith" are both fem and "this/that" "the gift" are both neut.

I don't claim to be a Greek scholar, but I believe I know more than most here. Not sure of what to think about this personally. So am open to your opinion.

@Lambano @St. SteVen