Does the "husband of one wife" requirement mean that polygamy was common in the early church?
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What about Jesus? by Bill Loader
"There are so many questions you ask about Jesus. Let me begin by saying that Jesus was a Jewish man who lived at a particular time of human history which we know something about. It was the time of the Roman Empire and the place where he lived was Palestine. In other words, whatever else I or any other person may say, Jesus was a figure in human history, not a god nor a legendary or mythical figure. Nor is he someone made up by religious people; otherwise it would be too difficult to explain some of the contradictions which exist in the accounts of his life. And, apart from that, non-Christian sources of the first two centuries (for example, Pliny, Tacitus, Josephus) treat him like any other historical figure."
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Resurrection
It is possible to think of Jesus and his impact as simply an event in history of enormous, even unique, significance. The first Christians went further than that. Their understanding of life included life after death, and especially resurrection. By resurrection they meant that a person begins a new form of existence at a different level of reality. Usually they envisaged this transformed life as entailing a transformation of the dead corpse into a new spiritual reality. This belief went along with the hope that ultimately everything would be transformed to the new level of existence. Some saw it all happening at a set time in the future. Others saw it as something which could start happening already in the present. The details of such beliefs are somewhat vague, but they form the backdrop for the earliest Christians’ first great claim about Jesus.
Our earliest Christian sources speak of Peter, one of Jesus’ disciples, coming to a new startling belief: instead of remaining in the sleep of death like other human beings who had died, Jesus had been resurrected and Peter had glimpsed him in this new state. Unfortunately there is no description anywhere in earliest writings of what exactly Peter saw, but apparently others had similar visual experiences, women and men. Some accounts even have women as the first to have had the experience. The conviction that God had raised Jesus to the new level of existence became fundamental for Christian faith and turned dejected men and women, disappointed at his death, into enthusiastic propagators of Jesus and his message." What about Jesus
Since Loader did not believe Jesus is God, anything from him is garbage.
"There are so many questions you ask about Jesus. Let me begin by saying that Jesus was a Jewish man who lived at a particular time of human history which we know something about. It was the time of the Roman Empire and the place where he lived was Palestine. In other words, whatever else I or any other person may say, Jesus was a figure in human history, not a god nor a legendary or mythical figure. Nor is he someone made up by religious people; otherwise it would be too difficult to explain some of the contradictions which exist in the accounts of his life. And, apart from that, non-Christian sources of the first two centuries (for example, Pliny, Tacitus, Josephus) treat him like any other historical figure."
...
"
Resurrection
It is possible to think of Jesus and his impact as simply an event in history of enormous, even unique, significance. The first Christians went further than that. Their understanding of life included life after death, and especially resurrection. By resurrection they meant that a person begins a new form of existence at a different level of reality. Usually they envisaged this transformed life as entailing a transformation of the dead corpse into a new spiritual reality. This belief went along with the hope that ultimately everything would be transformed to the new level of existence. Some saw it all happening at a set time in the future. Others saw it as something which could start happening already in the present. The details of such beliefs are somewhat vague, but they form the backdrop for the earliest Christians’ first great claim about Jesus.
Our earliest Christian sources speak of Peter, one of Jesus’ disciples, coming to a new startling belief: instead of remaining in the sleep of death like other human beings who had died, Jesus had been resurrected and Peter had glimpsed him in this new state. Unfortunately there is no description anywhere in earliest writings of what exactly Peter saw, but apparently others had similar visual experiences, women and men. Some accounts even have women as the first to have had the experience. The conviction that God had raised Jesus to the new level of existence became fundamental for Christian faith and turned dejected men and women, disappointed at his death, into enthusiastic propagators of Jesus and his message." What about Jesus
Since Loader did not believe Jesus is God, anything from him is garbage.
My understanding is that marriage for believers is a concession to the flesh to prevent fornication. It's not sin at all as long as lechery and excesses aren't brought to the marriage bed.....otherwise that would be idolatry. And I wonder if perhaps the natural man without God naturally tends to polygamy, however knowing the Lord helps to temper the flesh, or ought to.(15) "On the Numerous Progeny of the Ancients". This work is referred to by Eusebius twice, in the "Præp. Ev.", VII, 8, and in the "Dem. Ev.", VII, 8; and also (Lightfoot and Harnack think) by St. Basil (On the Holy Spirit 29), where he says, "I draw attention to his [Eusebius's] words in discussing the difficulties started in connexion with ancient polygamy." Arguing from St. Basil's words, Lightfoot thinks that in this treatise Eusebius dealt with the difficulty presented by the Patriarchs possessing more than one wife. But he overlooked the reference in the "Dem. Ev.", from which it would appear that the difficulty dealt with was, perhaps, a more general one, viz., the contrast presented by the desire of the Patriarchs for a numerous offspring and the honour in which continence was held by Christians.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Eusebius of Caesarea
Biographical article on the 'Father of Church History.'www.newadvent.org
Chapter 17 [XV.]— What is Sinless in the Use of Matrimony? What is Attended With Venial Sin, and What with Mortal?
It is, however, one thing for married persons to have intercourse only for the wish to beget children, which is not sinful: it is another thing for them to desire carnal pleasure in cohabitation, but with the spouse only, which involves venial sin. For although propagation of offspring is not the motive of the intercourse, there is still no attempt to prevent such propagation, either by wrong desire or evil appliance. They who resort to these, although called by the name of spouses, are really not such; they retain no vestige of true matrimony, but pretend the honourable designation as a cloak for criminal conduct. Having also proceeded so far, they are betrayed into exposing their children, which are born against their will.
CHURCH FATHERS: On Marriage and Concupiscence, Book I (Augustine)
Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.www.newadvent.org
In harsh times and places when there is a shortage of men to go around for the women, a man having more than one wife to protect and provide and give them children was actually a kindness to the women. But from what I remember, according to the bible each wife was to be provided with their own dwelling (or tent) and household, not live in a kind of dormitory with the other wife or wives.
Thanks for pointing this out. This directly contradicts the bible. Since there are things in the Koran which directly contradict the bible and deny the deity of Christ it cannot be of God period. The Hebrew scriptures make direct mention of God's son ......they are God-breathed writings and give witness to Christ, as do of course the writings of the new testament. The testimony of Jesus Christ is the very spirit of prophecy, and the whole bible is a prophetic book, in the sense of being God's inspired message to mankind....Jesus Himself confirmed that the scriptures testify about Him.[He is] Originator of the heavens and the earth. How could He have a son when He does not have a companion and He created all things? And He is, of all things, Knowing.
Verses from the qur'an about Allah has no son
Read the verses from the Qur'an which mention Allah (swt) being alone without a partner or son (total of 13 ayat/verses).myislam.org
More contradiction of the truth as given to us in the holy scriptures. I gather that @soberxp believes the church made a mistake in believing in the deity of Christ and thinks that the Koran corrects that "mistake". Unfortunately that is a deception.
It was to demonstrate His unspeakably generous and selfless love for mankind......and my friend, there is no greater love than His. "For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes on Him would never perish but would have everlasting life". "There is no greater love than that a man lay down his life for a friend." Come to Jesus....receive and believe in Him....He is the only way to salvation and eternal life. Jesus says, "Come unto me, you who are weary, and I will give you rest."
I ran into that on the mission field in south america. down htere the ladies lived in group homes for saftety. ouch shoulder.
Behold
Well-Known Member
God does not require a sinner to believe in The Deity of Christ, before He will save them... so, this means that God does not require a Christian to believe in the Deity of Christ.
Should a Christian believe that Jesus is The God-man?
Of course....but to believe this is not required for Salvation.
People dont go to Hell for not believing in The Deity of Christ......they go to Hell for not believing in Jesus The Christ at all.
This is why they go to hell.
John 3:36.
BeforeThereWas
Active Member
In this age of replacement theology, it's easy for those who practice replacement theology to add all manner of stuff to what is required for salvation.
In addition to "saved by grace through faith," (Eph. 2:8), many concoct additions such as water baptism as was preached by Peter to Israel in Acts 2 right after Pentecost, and then claiming it's the same gospel all throughout. They fail to recognize that it's no longer grace if one has to earn their salvation through water baptism as the means for the remission of sins. The dichotomy is so glaring in relation to any understanding of the definition of grace, which is unmerited favor. If it's unmerited, then water baptism cannot be a merit for salvation through remission of sins. That remission today is on the basis of faith rather than the work of water baptism or anything else others have added to Paul's words in 1 Cor. 15:1-4 in context.
So, false religions have all manner of additions they have added to salvation by trying to intermix the Kingdom Gospel elements with the Gospel of Grace elements, which Paul stated that the preachers of such are to be accursed.
So, it's good to see the rejection of elements added to what Paul, THE apostle to the Gentiles and THE minister of the Gospel of Grace, clearly stated.
BTW
soberxp
Well-Known Member
@The Learner
You don't really think Jesus died on the cross, do you? Isn't it for us to die on the cross, Jesus Christ did not die on the cross, but rose again.
He is alive now,so that Book says he was not dead, cuz he is alive now. The cross thing just a show for some reason.
I think that is why Jesus Christ said someone is blind leading the blind.
You don't really think Jesus died on the cross, do you? Isn't it for us to die on the cross, Jesus Christ did not die on the cross, but rose again.
He is alive now,so that Book says he was not dead, cuz he is alive now. The cross thing just a show for some reason.
I think that is why Jesus Christ said someone is blind leading the blind.
BeforeThereWas
Active Member
Given that philosophical vantagepoint and also given that all who ever had a spark of life on this earth are all still consciously alive right now and beyond, one of many conclusions could be that nobody ever truly dies in the spiritual sense.
So, semantic word games generally ensue over what death really is. It ends up being akin to a snake eating its own tail to gain nourishment while killing itself in the process. Physical death is what it is...the cessation of these earthly bodies to continue functioning.
When it comes to Christ, His physical death, given that His physical body was NOT of the seed of man, therefore He was not corrupted by the fallenness of man on account of sin passed on only through the seed of man; we're left with His perfect obedience coupled with His perfect innocence. The Creator of all determined that threshold, on the basis of His sense of perfect justice, sufficient to atone for the sins of all who call upon His Name.
THAT is what matters the most in all this.
BTW
Agree.
"... nobody ever truly dies in the spiritual sense." - BTW
Agree.
When we see the words "death" and "life" in the Bible we need to determine whether it refers to physical or spiritual life or death.
This where we have a difference of opinion.
1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
[
I guess you are partly right, Jesus’ death on the cross was to show/demonstrate His love for us. And He did die…..at least His body did. For without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. This was always God’s plan and foreknowledge…..He knowingly ordained a Law that no man could fully keep, and the Law required the shedding of blood. Jesus’ death on the cross was to demonstrate the love of God for us, and also very importantly to fulfill the Law on our behalf by atoning for our sins..
Rom 5:5-11
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Jhn 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Heb 9:12-26
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
And I also want to add, that I believe the manner of His death, crucifixion at the hands of pagans, was also necessary. Crucifixion was a very public and shameful death.....in this way He bore our shame, despising the shame of the cross, so that we would not be ashamed at His coming again, at the judgment. Through His manner of death, Jesus overcame things on our behalf that we never could overcome without Him. The devil thought he was making a public spectacle of Jesus, but instead Jesus was making a public spectacle of the devil. Exposing and defeating/overcoming him.
BeforeThereWas
Active Member
Systematic Theology kicks in at this point, which is a panoramic view of scripture as opposed to the pick-n-choose singular verses upon which to try and build a theology that cannot withstand the gale force winds of testing for falsehood. What that verse you quoted says in relation to all others on this topic is that the shed Blood of Christ is indeed sufficient to atone for ALL the sins of all mankind:
1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
How does that work?
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
And he also continued:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
So, the prerequisite for receiving the gift of grace (unmerited favor) unto salvation requires faith rather than works. Should our salvation be based upon our own efforts of works, we could then boast, which is diabolically opposed to the sufficiency in the Blood of Christ. Boasting leads to pride, which the Lord hates. Those religions out there that pile on works through sacraments and other efforts of human strength, they are false and anti-scriptuiral.
So, the house of cards built from just that one verse in John is now a flattened pile of...cards.
BTW
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Behold
Well-Known Member
Yes.
Most Christians dont understand that a false Gospel is to simply add something to The Cross of Christ as a must do, or a must not do.
A few examples :
The Cross + Water Baptism
The Cross + Holding unto your faith
The Cross + keeping commandments
The Cross + confessing sin
The Cross + Trying to behavior modify
The Cross + Not willfully sinning
The Cross + Believing in the Deity of Christ
The Cross + Joining the MaryCult
I separate the atonement from salvation itself.
The atonement paid the death penalty for our sins, and not ours alone, but for the whole world.
(as the quoted scripture states quite clearly)
Individual salvation is another subject entirely. And the evangelical formula doesn't cover it entirely.
1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
[
Behold
Well-Known Member
The offer of Jesus's Shed Blood is universal, but the application of the offer, is this..
"All who Believe In Jesus"......"All who Call on the Name of Jesus"......shall be saved.
And you have to put that Faith in Christ, before you die, as God wont accept it in Hell.
Salvation is about the saving of the soul/body. Jesus said to fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (lake of fire). The spirit returns to God who gave it. As I understand this, for the inheritors of eternal life their spirit returns to their body in the resurrection. For those who don't inherit eternal life their spirit is not returned in the end.
One must be in IN Christ to be saved, because salvation is THROUGH Him, through His Spirit, not apart from Him. If anyone has not His Spirit they are none of His, the scripture says. Yes He died for the sins of the whole world, meaning for the sins of not the Jews only but the Gentiles also, whosoever will receive and believe in Christ of them all.
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soberxp
Well-Known Member
What if someone put his faith in devil but thinking he put faith in Jesus?
What if someone put his faith in evil but thinking he put faith in good?
Jesus said why you call me good?
Jesus said why you call me god?
If a man can't tell the good from the bad, can he be saved?
In asking/saying, "Why do you call me good, there is none good but the Father", He was hinting that He was God. Because Jesus certainly was good, wasn't He?
soberxp
Well-Known Member
Jesus is word of God,the word of God is good @jesus Christ.
For Jesus come anywhere not for peace,but Son/Saw/See/Say word.
Amazing English.
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