soberxp
Well-Known Member
Israel's mission is for the sake of God, if you think it is God's sake to keep the promised land than the Gospel.
What can I say other than that.
What can I say other than that.
Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the Lord? Because of this, wrath has gone out against you from the Lord.
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God knows who fears Him and who obeys Him. That means Christians, not unbelieving Jews.
If we wanted to talk about genetics only, then Palestinians are today's closest relatives to the 1st century Palestinian Jews. But the teaching of Christianity is that flesh means nothing.
soberxp
Well-Known Member
But good and evil, the methods used by both sides were not the teachings of Jesus Christ,
But the Palestinian Hamas is following the Koran's teachings.
If God and Allah are one and the same one, then Woe to anyone who says he follow the word of God or Allah.
If Palestinian think Jesus is the The prophet，
They should be martyred like the disciples, not solve problems by force or wars.
The same goes for Jews.
Are people who believe in God, will they still be afraid of death?
There are things that cannot be solved by the word of God.?
The Gospel of Luke 12:1
In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.
13:21
It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
But the Palestinian Hamas is following the Koran's teachings.
If God and Allah are one and the same one, then Woe to anyone who says he follow the word of God or Allah.
If Palestinian think Jesus is the The prophet，
They should be martyred like the disciples, not solve problems by force or wars.
The same goes for Jews.
Are people who believe in God, will they still be afraid of death?
There are things that cannot be solved by the word of God.?
The Gospel of Luke 12:1
In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.
13:21
It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
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The "ingathering" story some Zionists spin doesn't quite match the data, which makes me question if it's truly divine or more geopolitical. If God is gathering Jews from every corner of the earth, why is it so selective and lopsided?
From 1991 to 2001, about 1 million repatriates arrived, with 90% from former Soviet states (50% Russia, 30% Ukraine, 20% other CIS), while the US and Western Europe contributed less than 10%.
Even now, 80% of olim come from the CIS. And the US? With millions of Jews there and unmatched support for Israel, only ~3,020 Americans made aliyah in 2023 (per Nefesh B’Nefesh). Yet, 5,000–6,000 Israelis emigrated to the US that year (CBS/USCIS data)—more leaving than arriving.
Were Jews mostly scattered across the former Soviet Union? And with so few from the US despite the huge community, is this really "God's plan," or economic migration?
What practical conclusions follow from this?
Does it mean we should support a secular Israel, where 99.7% are not Christians (CBS/Pew 2025), with an ultra-right government allied with religious Zionism pushing for a Third Temple that denies Christ's sacrifice?
Or does it mean banning Bible quotes in the US if they offend the "synagogue of Satan", violating the First Amendment?
Or supporting Israel's government in genocide in Gaza?
Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the Lord? Because of this, wrath has gone out against you from the Lord (2 Chronicles 19:2).
I don't know if God is explicitly regathering Jewish people to the land of Israel or if it His permissive will, so to speak. He is watching over His word to perform it.....sometimes that is by His explicit intervention, other times it is God allowing things in His sovereignty and foreknowledge.....it doesn't necessarily mean it is entirely for good or entirely for evil, but He is working all things together for His ultimate purposes.
I think that if life becomes untenable in the western nations, whether because of increased antisemitism, deteriorating economic conditions and/or war, many more Jews will return to Israel, taking everything they have with them....their talents and manpower, businesses, wealth, etc. That would greatly improve Israel's situation in the world I think, whether for good or evil, or a mixture of both like many things that have to do with this world.
But these geopolitical things are not the church's business, they are God's business as I see it. Other than that we should pray for relief of suffering, and that governments would act justly, etc. Our business as the church is to spread the gospel....that is the only mandate Jesus gave to the church. Go and make disciples of every nation, not go and try to improve political circumstances of every nation. Jesus didn't involve Himself in the politics of His day and neither did the apostles.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Did i not warn us sister . ya ol brother aint the mad man sniffing paint . I SEEN this on him a while back .
There is always an agenda sister . MANY have fallen for the great ruse sister . MANY and that do include
some even here amongst us .
But, if you are a dispensationalist, you actually believe that it will be bad for Jews to be in Israel, eventually, don't you? Even worse than anything else in history.
It seems to me that dispensationalism is quite a schizophrenic view - Christians who hold it support Jews moving to Israel, while expecting them to be horribly judged by God, there.
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amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
deleting scripture is very very bad indeed my friend .
So let us also not delete this scripture .
You shall not hate your neighbor in your heart you shall in any way CORRECT him and NOT ALLOW sin upon him .
Paul loved his enemies , HE PREACHED JESUS TO THEM .
paul loved the church , HE CORRECTED SIN AND ERROR .
so why come do i see a love today that not only wont correct sin within the church
WHICH has led to ITS ACCEPTANCE
but now i see these churches even begnning to holler judge not haters
WHEN a man like me even says the other religoins are of the darkness , NOT OF GOD
and NEED to repent to Beleive on JESUS .
I will tell us why this is and why it spread so amongst even the churches .
BECAUSE , satan can say GOD IS LOVE but he darn sure gonna do as he has always done
and bring a form that will contradict THE LOVE of GOD .
and why did this and why has this moved in so quickly amongst christendom .
CAUSE MANY LOVE A LIE , many love their sin and want to believe IN A BIG ol broad love path
TO GOD and that all is well in the end for all . THAT is why .
IT DONT matter to this christendom that JESUS has been turned into the minstir of sin
IT dont matter to this christendom that EVEN HIS GOSPEL has been trod under foot
ALL that matters to them is , HEY SO LONG as i can have my sin , AMEN .
I need clarification on your stance. You reference Paul’s words about Jews (e.g., Romans 11:28, wishing himself accursed for their salvation), but seem to apply them to modern Israelis, suggesting God’s love for them through the patriarchs extends to today’s Israel. Am I misunderstanding, or do you believe Paul’s words about Jews directly relate to modern Israelis?
Here’s the issue: Israel’s founders in 1948 chose the name “Israel” over “Judea.” Why?
Israel (the Northern Kingdom) had zero God-pleasing kings—all 19, from Jeroboam I to Hoshea, were condemned for idolatry (1–2 Kings).
Judea, however, had 8 godly kings out of 20: Asa, Jehoshaphat, Joash, Azariah, Jotham, Hezekiah, Manasseh (after repentance), and Josiah (2 Kings 18–23).
By choosing “Israel,” the founders signaled a vision tied to a rebellious, idolatrous legacy, not Judea’s godly remnant. If modern Israel isn’t even claiming Judea’s heritage, why assume Paul’s words about biblical Jews apply to them?
Even if modern Israelis were descendants of biblical Israel, Scripture asks: “Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the Lord? Because of this, wrath has gone out against you from the Lord” (2 Chronicles 19:2).
Today, with 99.7% of Israelis rejecting Christ (CBS/Pew 2025) and pushing a Third Temple that denies His sacrifice (Hebrews 10:10–14), it’s worse.
Do you agree Christians shouldn’t support modern Israel’s agenda? If so, the problem is Zionist propaganda sowing tares in Christian circles. We can’t ignore this—we must confront it, right?
Never thought you were sniffing paint brother, good golly, and don't know what gave you that idea. We do want to guard against an "aha!" attitude at times though. I'm sure you get around to more threads and read many more posts than I do these days and I can only go by what posts I have read. Even so I don't want to approach people with suspicion and accusations necessarily...we're not wrestling with flesh and blood. I'd rather try reasoning with them from the scriptures in case they can be helped by that, and others reading might be helped or edified too. What the Lord is gracious to show me for my own sake, I'm happy to share when I can. Yes, unfortunately many are falling for that deception, and unless I'm much mistaken, I believe it is going to culminate with the Temple in Jerusalem....we sure are in a falling away, sadly.
ok, I'll try to clarify myself. Paul was expressing his deep love and care for his people, that they might be saved, in spite of their faults. I consider modern Israelis to be mostly descendants of Abraham, as far as I know and can tell....so I believe God's love for them through the patriarchs does extend to them today. (But that doesn't mean we are to be unequally yoked with them or join hands with them in their earthly battles.) I see them as prodigal sons. Where the scripture mentions those "who say they are Jews but are not" I believe is an extension of "he is Jew who is one inwardly"....it is not making a statement about pretenders in my view. Yes, they are (or can be) enemies for the gospel's sake, but are loved on account of the patriarchs. And we are to love our enemies. Brother, I just keep wanting to balance things out and guard against a spirit of anti-semitism. I have seen how easily that can be roused, and many people reading posts can be in the flesh and not in spirit with things. I'm not trying to oppose you, just want to try and keep some balance.
I don't know if the name they chose for their country signals anything nefarious or not. The whole nation was called Israel before they were divided, and even Paul calls the nation "Israel after the flesh". But maybe you know more about what was behind their choice than I do. What bothers me more is that they chose to call it a "state" rather than a "country" or "nation"....that has always sounded soul-less, like communism, to my ears.
That scripture you are mentioning, I have tried, but just can't get my head around it for some reason up to now...maybe just a mental block because I'm not young anymore, or maybe I'm reluctant to call the whole nation wicked, I am just not sure. God has shown me the scripture that rebukes making alliances that are not of Him, not of His Spirit, though. And He has shown me another scripture that talks about encouraging those He is not encouraging and discouraging those He is not discouraging, or words to that effect. These strike me as being similar to the 2 Chron. 19 verse. I think all three of them might be alluding in a general sense of approaching things in the flesh and emotions rather than being in spirit. That's about where I was in my Hebrew roots phase. In the flesh we are often working against Him, against His will, in spite of what may be good intentions.
Your clarification sounds a lot like Piers Morgan’s diplomatic tightrope—classic British balancing act!
But here’s the issue: you can’t serve two masters (Matthew 6:24).
Jesus said, “Whoever is not with Me is against Me” (Matthew 12:30).
On “loving enemies,” I’m exhausted repeating myself—see posts #184 and #185–187.
I'll try to explain the issue. The text might be lengthy, but understand that I'm attempting to condense 2,700 years of history into a single forum post.
Historically, the Northern Kingdom of Israel, comprising ten tribes, was conquered by Assyria around 722 BCE. The Assyrians deported much of Israel's population to regions like Assyria, Mesopotamia, and Media, as part of their policy of scattering conquered peoples (2 Kings 17:24). This led to the "lost ten tribes," who largely assimilated into other nations, and the Northern Kingdom ceased to exist as a state.
After this, only the Southern Kingdom of Judah remained, primarily made up of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and some Levites. Judah was later conquered by Babylon under Nebuchadnezzar II around 587/586 BCE, and its people were taken into the Babylonian captivity. After Babylon fell to the Persians in 539 BCE, King Cyrus the Great issued a decree allowing the Jews to return to Jerusalem and rebuild the Temple (Ezra 1:1–4), which was completed around 516 BCE. From that point until the time of Jesus (circa 4 BCE–30 CE), the restored community was known as Judah, not Israel. It existed under Persian, Greek, and later Roman rule (from 63 BCE, when Pompey captured Jerusalem). In 70 CE, the Romans, under Titus, destroyed the Second Temple and Jerusalem, effectively ending Judah as a center of Jewish statehood until modern times.
The problem isn't just the name "Israel" being used for the modern state founded in 1948. The original Israel, as a unified nation, existed before the split into two kingdoms, but after the Assyrian conquest, only Judah remained as a distinct entity. If modern Israelis claim descent from Abraham, the question is: from which tribes? Since the ten tribes of Israel were scattered and largely lost, the Jewish people who returned from Babylon were mainly from Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. Logically, if descendants of Judah and Benjamin were to restore their state, they would call it Judah, not Israel, as Israel was a separate, sometimes hostile kingdom to them in biblical times.
Yet, in 1948, the founders of the modern state chose the name "Israel." This choice is significant because the descendants of the biblical Israel were dispersed long before the Second Temple period, and over 2,000 years have passed since the destruction of Judah in 70 CE. Some question whether modern Israelis are truly descendants of Abraham’s tribes, given the long history of dispersion and intermingling, especially for the "lost" tribes of Israel, whose assimilation began over 2,700 years ago.
This brings us to your point about Paul’s reference to "Israel after the flesh." Paul, writing in the first century, was referring to the Jews of his time—primarily from the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, as the other tribes had long been scattered. So, what basis is there to connect Paul’s words to modern Israelis?
The name "Israel" for the modern state might evoke the biblical unity of all twelve tribes, but historically and genealogically, claiming direct continuity with the ancient Israel is questionable.
Big Boy Johnson
Well-Known Member
Exactly. Just like the prodigal son, the Lord has mercy for the Jews and desires them to come to Jesus and receive salvation.
Romans 2:9 states that there will be tribulation and anguish for every soul that does evil so even though the Lord loves them, it does not mean they or any of us won't reap what we sow if we turn away from the Lord or in the Jews case remain away from the Lord
God's Word teaches there will be another temple built and it will be the ant-christ sitting in it claiming to be God.
The temple represents the house of the Lord so it is something the Lord is leading therm to build... so the prophecies concerning the anti-christ come to pass AND to show who is actually following the Lord vs who is following devils who just think they are following the Lord.
How do you understand this?
Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.
Even as a metaphor, it still mentions 12 tribes in the 1st century... or, do you think it covers pre-Assyrian history of Israel?
The reference to the 144,000 from the twelve tribes in Revelation 7:4–8 is allegorical, not a literal census of 1st-century Jewish tribes. The Book of Revelation is steeped in symbolic imagery.
By the 1st century, the ten tribes of the Northern Kingdom were long assimilated after the Assyrian conquest (722 BCE), leaving only Judah, Benjamin, and some Levites.
Expand on your question. What are you trying to say? Are you suggesting that the passage in Revelation 7:4–8 is a literal, factual census of Judea’s population in the 1st century? Or something else?
You quoted Revelation 7:4–8 and asked how I understand it. To me, the Book of Revelation is the most ambiguous in terms of interpretation. It’s filled with so many images and symbols that it can be understood in various ways. Even the early church fathers had different interpretations of Revelation. Moreover, it needs to be understood in context. In this context, I understand that the passage in Revelation 7:4–8 is not a literal historical census of Judea’s population in the 1st century.
The scripture I referenced sounds like a balancing act, so maybe I'm not too far off course....."they are enemies for the gospel's sake, but loved on account of the patriarchs."
I wasn't accusing you of anything, only reminding us all of what Jesus said about loving our enemies. Regarding your posts on the subject, it's a good discussion to try and iron out the will and wisdom of God on it. My position in case it helps to clarify, is that I don't believe we are called to love geopolitical entities called nation-states.....only to love people. I believe meting out justice to criminals and enemies of war belongs to the governments of this world (Rom 13) and to God ultimately, not to the church. The church's job and mandate is to show mercy and forgiveness to people, as a witness to the gospel.
And just want to mention (I don't know your view on this), that Israel's time as a theocracy was for the purpose of acting as an allegory for the kingdom of God (ensample to the church).....it isn't how things normally work in this world. It never works out well to have mixing of church and state. Israel back then served as an allegory in the natural realm for heavenly/spiritual realities pointing ahead to the gospel and kingdom of God....biblical principle of first the natural then the spiritual.
Marvelloustime
Well-Known Member
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