Two Gatherings at Jesus' Coming

[marks]

Why the Early Church Finally Rejected Premillennialism | Modern Reformation

Chiliasm (1) is the ancient name for what today is known as premillennialism, the belief that when Jesus Christ returns he will not execute the last judgment at once, but will first set up on earth a temporary kingdom, where resurrected saints will rule with him over non-resurrected subjects for...

www.modernreformation.org

When Israel was exiled from their land by the Romans, a great many didn't believe God would ever restore them, though this was what the Bible promised. But those who didn't believe that didn't believe there would be the millennial kingdom. And they had to figure out what all these passages that spoke of Israel's future really must mean!

They concluded they were Israel. And all the reinterpretation of Scripture began, rethinking "Israel" as "the Body of Christ", but that's just not so. It's a reinterpretation of Scripture that came out of an unbelief in it's veracity.

You can believe God's promises.

One that is particularly ironclad,

Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Much love!

 

[marks]

@marks and anyone else interested, there is only the one body, the same body of believers.

I agree. There is one "body of Christ", all those who are baptized into Jesus Christ. We are "in Christ".

There are not 2 destinies and 2 bodies of Christ. Gentiles are fellow heirs with the believing JEWS of the same body.

In Christ is neither Greek nor Jew, so we can't really say the Body of Christ is composed of both Jews and Gentiles, rather, we are "one new man", that is neither Jew nor Gentile. We are one in the Body of Christ, we were two, now we are one new man, neither Greek nor Jew.

Much love!

 

[marks]

What do you think happens to unbelieving Jews who reject Christ?

Same thing that happens to unbelieving gentiles.

I don't think we should just assume that because someone doesn't believe and is saved now, that they never will be.

Much love!

 

[marks]

When Jesus returns, He will gather the chosen, and then gather the nations. This is gathering Israel, and then the gentiles. The gentiles will be separated based on whether they supplied the needs of Jesus' brothers.

For the gentiles to be divided according to how they treated Jesus' brothers, His brothers are therefore not of the gentiles, and again, this is Israel.

The beast will try to destroy Israel. God will hold the gentiles accountable for whether they did or did not help them.

Much love!

 

[Scott Downey]

I agree. There is one "body of Christ", all those who are baptized into Jesus Christ. We are "in Christ".

In Christ is neither Greek nor Jew, so we can't really say the Body of Christ is composed of both Jews and Gentiles, rather, we are "one new man", that is neither Jew nor Gentile. We are one in the Body of Christ, we were two, now we are one new man, neither Greek nor Jew.

Much love!

The Mystery Revealed​

1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2 if indeed you have heard of the [a]dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

Paul still speaks to the gentiles as a particular group separate from jews.
That they are one body with believing jews and fellow heirs of believing jews, and of the commonwealth of Israel they are included because of their faith in Christ, along with believing jews.
So yes, one new man from the two.
But still the apostles taught gentiles, and they went to the jews, more so at first, but the jews rejected the gospel.
The New Testament establishes these facts. Scripture does not stop talking of jews and gentiles.

Like this, Acts 13

Blessing and Conflict at Antioch​

42 [n]So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us:

‘I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’ ”
48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

49 And the word of the Lord was being spread throughout all the region. 50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and prominent women and the chief men of the city, raised up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them from their region. 51 But they shook off the dust from their feet against them, and came to Iconium. 52 And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.

 

[marks]

But still the apostles taught gentiles, and they went to the jews, more so at first, but the jews rejected the gospel.
The New Testament establishes these facts. Scripture does not stop talking of jews and gentiles.

Even so, there is neither Greek nor Jew in Christ. That means something. It's not just flowery speech of kumbuya.

Yes, they went to the Jews, they went to the gentiles, and all who believed are in the Body of Christ.

Luke wrote that the "believing Pharisees" were teaching circumcision. But because Luke identified that group as such, does not mean they were separate from the rest of the Jews in Christ. Nor does it mean that "in Christ" there are divisions. All are one in Christ, and that "one" is not a "new Israel" or some such.

Much love!

 

[marks]

So yes, one new man from the two.

However, we are getting off topic here, the topic is that there are two gatherings when Jesus returns, the first, the chosen, the second, the gentiles.

If you were to ask any Jew alive at the time Jesus gave this prophecy, who are "the chosen", and, who are "the nations", the answer would be, Jews and Gentiles.

And everything in this prophecy supports that.

Much love!

 

[Scott Downey]

When Jesus returns, He will gather the chosen, and then gather the nations. This is gathering Israel, and then the gentiles. The gentiles will be separated based on whether they supplied the needs of Jesus' brothers.

For the gentiles to be divided according to how they treated Jesus' brothers, His brothers are therefore not of the gentiles, and again, this is Israel.

The beast will try to destroy Israel. God will hold the gentiles accountable for whether they did or did not help them.

Much love!

Your problem with this, you believe in all these multiple gatherings at different times.
When there is only the one gathering at the second coming of Christ for ALL those who are His.
That is why you create this elaborate process, and it is not scripture.

There is only one harvest.
Some are gathered by angels, judged, cast into the fire, that would be the bad ones thrown away
Some are gathered by angels, do not come under that judgment decision of hell, and remain forever with Christ, so that where He is, they will also be, that would be the good ones kept.

Dragnet, planted seeds are about the harvest of souls, the fate of the wicked and just at the end of this world, which occurs at the second coming of Christ when He will judge the world in righteousness on that Day, as Acts 17 says.
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30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

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Matthew 13 KJV

The Parable of the Dragnet​

47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.

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Matthew 13 NKJV

The Parable of the Dragnet​

47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind,

48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away.

49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,

50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

51 [d]Jesus said to them, “Have you understood all these things?”
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Matthew 13, the Harvest, KJV

The Parable of the Tares Explained​

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
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Matthew 13 NKJV

The Parable of the Tares Explained​

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.

38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.

39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.

40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.

41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,

42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

 

[Scott Downey]

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Timothy 4 - King James Version

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not...

www.biblegateway.com

​

1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.

7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

 

[marks]

8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

I expect we will both love Jesus' appearing. Yes?

Much love!

 

[Scott Downey]

Jesus taught the gathering using terms like the harvest, and dragnet
Jesus taught us the gathering is at the end of this world.
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Matthew 13 KJV

The Parable of the Dragnet​

47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Here is more on the END! by Paul

1 Cor 15 KJV

The Last Enemy Destroyed​

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

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as you read with the second coming of Christ is the resurrection, judgment, and END of this world
The Last Enemy Death. is destroyed by Christ when He returns, as it is then, the age of the resurrection

Luke 20

34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. 37 But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”

39 Then some of the scribes answered and said, “Teacher, You have spoken well.” 40 But after that they dared not question Him anymore.

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[Randy Kluth]

When the body of Christ is caught up to Jesus - the rapture - God sends His angel to seal 144,000 Jews, as God continues to have His witness to the world. Israel was God's witness, then the body of Christ, then the 144,000 and the two prophets/witnesses. The two witnesses will be killed and caught up to heaven, and the 144,000 translated into heaven around the midpoint of the 70th week. And then angels will fly in the skies giving God's Word to the people of the earth.

It sounds as though you believe the entire Christian world during the Reign of Antichrist will consist of 144,000 Jews and those in Israel they reach with the Gospel? If so, this sounds very narrow for God to operate in history through such a small group of people, relatively speaking? Why on earth would God spend 7 or less years bringing the world to the place of judgment with so little impact from Jewish believers in Israel?

Revelation 7:9 KJV
9) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The group is identified as those that "came out of great tribulation". One thing about that, John, in his writings, often switched EK and APO. Whether this is one of those places or not, I can't say, but it seems so to me. With certain exceptions I see this vision as mostly in sequencial order, meaning this occurs as early as it appears in the vision.

Prepositions really don't determine meaning so much is the way I see it. Certainly there is a difference from one word to another, but often the difference has little to do with the definition of the primary words in context.

Since much in the book of Revelation are proleptic, I see the Great Multitude as coming out of the Tribulation of the present age *at the very end of the age, when Christ returns.*a

1 Samuel 10:26 KJV
And Saul also went home to Gibeah; and there went with him a band of men, whose hearts God had touched.

Just like Muslims are having visions of Jesus and becoming Christians, it could happen to them also.

One thing, I think the rapture will occur in conjunction with the Gog/Magog battle, in the worldwide earthquake. When the Israelites see the miraculous destruction of their enemies, why not?

The simple answer is, there is a huge difference between the nation of Israel waking up to who their Messiah is after Armageddon at Jesus' Return and becoming "power evangelists" reaching out to the nation Israel for their Salvtion. It's the difference between a little child getting Saved and a grown mature Christian minister, trained and experienced, exercising his ministry in a hostile world.

I can't see 144,000 Jews just "waking up" to their Salvation, with no mature Christian input and purely by miraculous growth, learning immediately, without training and instruction, to witness to their nation? Even worse, the 12,000 from each tribe seems obviously symbolic since tribal distinctions went away thousands of years ago.

As for, why not before the rapture?

As I said, 2 Thes 2 indicates the Rapture of the Church takes place at the 2nd Coming when Christ returns to destroy the Antichrist.

But look at the early church, the Apostles and new believers, doing amazing miracles, teaching the church, Stephen, for instance, even in the early days, giants of the faith. Or the builders of the tabernacle.

The early Apostles were trained by Jesus for 3.5 years, and even earlier under Judaism (coupled with their faith). "Giants of faith" are not what the 144,000 converted Jews relate to!

I don't see them as world evangelists, I think they evangelize Israel.

Though the book of Revelation utilizes Israel as part of its setting I think world judgment is the larger picture. Having only a relative few witnesses in Israel does not prepare the world for judgment at Christ's 2nd Coming. And it doesn't take 3.5 or 7 years to judge the world!

Actually it teaches that the day of the Lord cannot come until antichrist is revealed. It does not say this about the rapture. What Paul is saying there is, concerning our being gathered to the Lord (the rapture), don't be upset because people are telling you the Day of the Lord is here.

Here is the problem I have with this. I believe the "day of the Lord" is coupled with "the assembly of the Church" in this verse...

2 Thes 2.1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him...

The conjunction indicates (to me) that the "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" is to be joined as synonymous with "our being gathered to him." If so, then neither clause can take place before the Antichrist appears, and both must take place when Jesus is referred to as coming to destroy the Antichrist "with the breath of his mouth" and by the "splendor of his coming." Verse 8.

Why would the be upset about that?

If "the day of the Lord/Christ" (depending on your manuscript) meant the rapture, why get upset when someone tells you "rapture day is here"? But that's not what they were saying, they were saying, apparently, the Day of the Lord is here.

The obvious answer would be that news of Christ's immediate coming on earth is indicative of a false cultic Christian movement, which is able to deceive believers. Jesus warned that "false Christs and false prophets" would come to deceive many. When a cultic pseudo-Christian group appears and shows itself to be seemingly viable, some will be drawn to it and to its carnal powers.

Jesus' counter to this danger was his claim that his Coming would not be secret, nor earthly, but openly from heaven. This is not a secret Rapture, but a 2nd Coming in glory to judge the world.

No, this comes from my years of personal Bible study. Forget about Darby! This has nothing to do with him. I learn from the Bible.

Concerning "pre-wrath", as I've learned that view, this is the idea that they church is raptured after the plagues of the trumpets, after the time of great tribulation, and before the wrath of God poured out from the bowls.

Where Paul wrote in Thessalonians that we are not appointed to wrath, this could just as well refer to wrath of final judgment.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 KJV
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.


There is persecution and affliction from the early church until now, and it will continue. No one is immune from these. Paul wrote to Timothy that all who even just want to live godly will suffer persecution.

To respond directly, I don't count some sort of "wrath exemption" as a "need" for a pre-trib rapture. I'm not about anticipated outcomes, only, what does the Bible say/not say.

And I also think we should believe God's Word as given through Paul, and all the others. :-)

Yes, I know you believe the Bible. I'm just saying that when Paul gives such a straightforward statement like "don't believe the Church has been assembled yet," then we should take note, which I'm sure you do in your own way.

The reason I bring up PreWrath and the aversion to Darby with respect to the Church suffering God's Wrath in the Reign of Antichrist is because I believe there were preliminary movements similar to PreWrath from which he got his "double Coming" theory. There were a few movements in Church history where the belief was that Christ returns for his Church a little bit before the Last Day of the Age, indicating a kind of 2 stage Coming.

You may think you got your views from your personal Bible study. But we are all affected by those who've gone before us. We need to critically examine where our teachings have come from. That's all I'm trying to do here.

I went from Pretrib to Postrib simply by memorizing the entire letter of 2 Thessalonians in the early 70s. I was shocked that it appeared Paul was teaching us to reject any notion of a Pretrib Rapture! So that is my story, and I simply have to keep telling it.

But mind you, I've been in Pretrib churches all my life. My pastors have all known that I disagree on this belief, and it causes no separation on matters of fellowship.

However, I'm not ever invited to share in church. And the pastor, though promising Bible Study, has refused to bring it apart from his own sermons.

The previous pastors promised to hear me out on the subject, but apparently changed their minds. They are no longer with us. I try not to force things, because that seems so unlike the Holy Spirit.

 

[marks]

It sounds as though you believe the entire Christian world during the Reign of Antichrist will consist of 144,000 Jews and those in Israel they reach with the Gospel? If so, this sounds very narrow for God to operate in history through such a small group of people, relatively speaking? Why on earth would God spend 7 or less years bringing the world to the place of judgment with so little impact from Jewish believers in Israel?

I have no idea how many will respond to God during this time. I know Zechariah prophesied 1/3 of Israel will be saved. The 2 witnesses will be there also, calling down whatever plagues they want. This won't be something done in a corner somewhere. I think there will be global impact.

Prepositions really don't determine meaning so much is the way I see it. Certainly there is a difference from one word to another, but often the difference has little to do with the definition of the primary words in context.

I treat every word as contributing to the meaning of the text. I endeavor to not overlook or minimize any words in the Bible.

Since much in the book of Revelation are proleptic, I see the Great Multitude as coming out of the Tribulation of the present age *at the very end of the age, when Christ returns.*a

I take it all in sequence if the words indicate that, and don't preclude it.

The simple answer is, there is a huge difference between the nation of Israel waking up to who their Messiah is after Armageddon at Jesus' Return and becoming "power evangelists" reaching out to the nation Israel for their Salvtion. It's the difference between a little child getting Saved and a grown mature Christian minister, trained and experienced, exercising his ministry in a hostile world.

We don't actually have any information specifically on what the 144,000 will be doing. I know that a great many preachers call them evangelists, even saying they will be all Billy Grahams, evangelizing the world, but I don't see that in the Bible.

I can't see 144,000 Jews just "waking up" to their Salvation, with no mature Christian input and purely by miraculous growth, learning immediately, without training and instruction, to witness to their nation? Even worse, the 12,000 from each tribe seems obviously symbolic since tribal distinctions went away thousands of years ago.

I believe God knows who is who. And God can enlighten men, and God can speak through them by the Holy Spirit. I don't have a faith issue over this being able to be fulfilled. I believe it can happen.

As I said, 2 Thes 2 indicates the Rapture of the Church takes place at the 2nd Coming when Christ returns to destroy the Antichrist.

Again, the coming of our Lord, in relation to our being gathered to Him, is not the "day of the Lord", so we will disagree on this. And yes, there's no need for us to divide or separate over this. I truly appreciate the nice discussion!

The early Apostles were trained by Jesus for 3.5 years, and even earlier under Judaism (coupled with their faith). "Giants of faith" are not what the 144,000 converted Jews relate to!

Though the book of Revelation utilizes Israel as part of its setting I think world judgment is the larger picture. Having only a relative few witnesses in Israel does not prepare the world for judgment at Christ's 2nd Coming. And it doesn't take 3.5 or 7 years to judge the world!

I see it also being the salvation of Israel.

Here is the problem I have with this. I believe the "day of the Lord" is coupled with "the assembly of the Church" in this verse...

2 Thes 2.1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him...

The conjunction indicates (to me) that the "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" is to be joined as synonymous with "our being gathered to him." If so, then neither clause can take place before the Antichrist appears, and both must take place when Jesus is referred to as coming to destroy the Antichrist "with the breath of his mouth" and by the "splendor of his coming." Verse 8.

Again, it's the day of the Lord that won't happen until the "apostasia", and the man of sin revealed. But the gathering to the Lord is not a part of that, as this passage distinguishes between the two.

The obvious answer would be that news of Christ's immediate coming on earth is indicative of a false cultic Christian movement, which is able to deceive believers. Jesus warned that "false Christs and false prophets" would come to deceive many. When a cultic pseudo-Christian group appears and shows itself to be seemingly viable, some will be drawn to it and to its carnal powers.

However, when we are talking about the rapture, That's not about Jesus returning in glory to establish His kingdom. I don't see how this concern would actually apply.

Jesus' counter to this danger was his claim that his Coming would not be secret, nor earthly, but openly from heaven. This is not a secret Rapture, but a 2nd Coming in glory to judge the world.

I'm not saying Jesus arrives to earth in secret. I don't even think the rapture will be "hidden". The world won't recongnize what happened, if I'm right that it occurs during the worldwide earthquake.

The reason I bring up PreWrath and the aversion to Darby with respect to the Church suffering God's Wrath in the Reign of Antichrist is because I believe there were preliminary movements similar to PreWrath from which he got his "double Coming" theory. There were a few movements in Church history where the belief was that Christ returns for his Church a little bit before the Last Day of the Age, indicating a kind of 2 stage Coming.

There have been many different ideas, and many variations within them.

You may think you got your views from your personal Bible study. But we are all affected by those who've gone before us. We need to critically examine where our teachings have come from. That's all I'm trying to do here.

And in fact I've done that, and have been doing that a long time. My views are either supported by my most rigorous examination of Scripture, or held as opinion.

That I disagree doesn't mean I've got my ideas from others, and haven't checked them out. And if you really get into my view on this, it's not what Dallas Seminary teaches.

I went from Pretrib to Postrib simply by memorizing the entire letter of 2 Thessalonians in the early 70s. I was shocked that it appeared Paul was teaching us to reject any notion of a Pretrib Rapture! So that is my story, and I simply have to keep telling it.

OK. I was briefly pre-wrath, but then I discovered inconsistencies. This is my story, that as I've condsidered each of the positions, I've found irreconcilable inconsistencies between the exact teaching of Scripture (including prepositions, conjunctions, specific syntax, the like) and those views, with the exception of pre-trib. That's the only one that harmonizes with everything.

But mind you, I've been in Pretrib churches all my life. My pastors have all known that I disagree on this belief, and it causes no separation on matters of fellowship.

That is good! I was actually the sole pre-trib moderator on a pre-wrath forum. And we had great unity and fellowship!

However, I'm not ever invited to share in church. And the pastor, though promising Bible Study, has refused to bring it apart from his own sermons.

That can only be disappointing I would think!

The previous pastors promised to hear me out on the subject, but apparently changed their minds. They are no longer with us. I try not to force things, because that seems so unlike the Holy Spirit.

I feel the same way, to not force anything. And I really do appreciate you are able to discuss this with an even keel.

The OP for this thread is one of those things in Scripture that points me particularly to pre-trib, that the body of Christ just doesn't fit at this end of the age scenerio, aside from returned to earth with Jesus when He comes in power and glory.

Much love!

 

[MatthewG]

I think it was two groups in one gathering in Christ - that made up the bride of Christ.

 

[Randy Kluth]

We don't actually have any information specifically on what the 144,000 will be doing.

I don't believe it's what the 144,00 will be doing, but rather, the fact they are sealed from destruction. It is, I think, the fulfillment of God's promise to somehow preserve all tribal descendants via the nation Israel. We are assured that this will happen even during the reign of Antichrist. They are either the current Christian remnant of Israel or a symbolic number representing the converted nation in the future.

Again, the coming of our Lord, in relation to our being gathered to Him, is not the "day of the Lord", so we will disagree on this.

Yes, this is the critical question for me, with respect to this particular letter of Paul. Do the 2 clauses belong together, or are they specifically determined to be separated? As I said, a simple conjunction between one clause and the other clause does not separate them. What then separates them?

2 Thes 2.1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him...

Why would we separate Christ's Coming with our being Gathered? In 1 Thes 4 we clearly have a connection between Christ's Coming and our being Gathered....

1 Thes 4.14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Again, it's the day of the Lord that won't happen until the "apostasia", and the man of sin revealed. But the gathering to the Lord is not a part of that, as this passage distinguishes between the two.

Where is this supposed distinction between the Gathering to the Lord and the "Apostasia?" We are told upfront that Christ's Coming *and* our Gathering must not precede the "Apostasia!" Your split between the Coming and the Gathering seems arbitrary such that you've inserted what you wish to prove was already there? But I see no necessity in separating the Coming and the Gathering?

However, when we are talking about the rapture, That's not about Jesus returning in glory to establish His kingdom. I don't see how this concern would actually apply.

I'm not saying Jesus arrives to earth in secret. I don't even think the rapture will be "hidden". The world won't recongnize what happened, if I'm right that it occurs during the worldwide earthquake.

This is the main reason I'm answering now--not just to argue. I don't think you understood my explanation for why the Church would be bothered if Christ had already come? As I said, it seems natural to join the Coming of Christ with the Gathering of the Church. If the Thessalonian Church was told that Christ had already come out in the wilderness somewhere, with a gathering of believers present with him, it would cause some to go and investigate, and perhaps join the cult.

This is precisely what Jesus warned about in his Olivet Discourse, that there would be false *earthly* claims to Messiahship, such that some could be deceived. The counter to this was Jesus claim that his Coming would not be *earthly* but rather, *heavenly.* He would *come from heaven,* dispelling any notion of an earthly gathering of people who have claimed Christ already returned and was with their cult.

You should know that we have pseudo-Christian cults today who might claim similar things about their group, that somehow Christ has already come and appeared to them, or confirmed them as his people. Take, for example, the JWs. They predicted Christ's Coming in 1914, and somehow think this validated their movement.

OK. I was briefly pre-wrath, but then I discovered inconsistencies.

I'd like to know what your supposed "inconsistencies" were with either the PreWrath or the Postrib position?

I feel the same way, to not force anything. And I really do appreciate you are able to discuss this with an even keel.

I just plain love talking about biblical prophecy. If I find others don't agree on some major issues I usually find something that we can agree on, largely because we're all Christians who are pursuing truth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

One of the reasons I believe in a pre-trib rapture, there is no place for the body of Christ at His coming, only that we return with Jesus.

The body of Christ consists of the souls of the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain when He comes. All of the body of Christ will be gathered to Christ in the air at His coming. What you're saying contradicts what Paul taught here...

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Matthew 24:30-31 KJV
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

These are Israel.

Joel 3:1 KJV
For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

Matthew 25:31-32 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

These are the Gentiles, both righteous and unrighteous.

Joel 3:2 KJV
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Joel 3:2 LITV
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat. And I will enter into judgment with them there, for My people and My inheritance, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations; and they shared out My land.

When Jesus returns, He will send the angels to gather Israel back to their promised land, and then will gather the gentiles to be judged. They will be separated righteous and wicked, based on whether they supplied the needs for Israel.

The Body of Christ is not judged righteous or wicked based on works, but is righteous being baptized into the body of Christ.

Read all of Matthew 25:31-46. That is talking about the sheep (the righteous) inheriting eternal life in the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world while at the same time the goats are cast "into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels". Since when is one's eternity determined by whether or not they supplied the needs for Israel? Since never.

You say "The Body of Christ is not judged righteous or wicked based on works, but is righteous being baptized into the body of Christ.". That is generally true, but are you somehow not aware that all of us, including you and I, will stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of ourselves and what we have done, both good and bad? And are you aware that our works reflect whether we have true faith or not? James said that faith without works is dead.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Matthew 25:31-46 is an account of all people being brought before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of themselves after which "every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.". Those who are saved will inherit eternal life in the kingdom God prepared for us from the foundation of the world while those who are unsaved will be cast into everlasting fire. This does not mean that salvation is by works. We know that salvation is by grace through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9). But, it does mean that our works reflect our faith or lack thereof.

Joel 3 relates to the days described just prior to it. Peter quoted Joel 2:28-32 in Acts 2:16-21 in relation to what was happening on the day of Pentecost long ago and he related it to the time period during which God would pour out His Spirit and during which people would call on the name of the Lord to be saved. So, you are misapplying Joel 3 to the wrong time period.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 7:9 KJV
9) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 7:13-14 KJV
13) And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14) And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The group is identified as those that "came out of great tribulation". One thing about that, John, in his writings, often switched EK and APO. Whether this is one of those places or not, I can't say, but it seems so to me. With certain exceptions I see this vision as mostly in sequencial order, meaning this occurs as early as it appears in the vision.

One example is where Luke wrote in correct Koine Greek quoting Jesus, "If I be lifted up APO away from the earth", John quoted the same, but wrote it, "If I be lifted up EK out of the earth". And there are a number of examples. When I looked at this I filled page of times John switched these.

Can you explain exactly what your understanding is of who those verses are referring to and what your understanding is of the great tribulation that they came out of and how they came out of it? Also, when do you see them as coming out of great tribulation (what time period)?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

When Israel was exiled from their land by the Romans, a great many didn't believe God would ever restore them, though this was what the Bible promised. But those who didn't believe that didn't believe there would be the millennial kingdom. And they had to figure out what all these passages that spoke of Israel's future really must mean!

They concluded they were Israel. And all the reinterpretation of Scripture began, rethinking "Israel" as "the Body of Christ", but that's just not so. It's a reinterpretation of Scripture that came out of an unbelief in it's veracity.

No, scripture itself refers to an Israel that is spiritual in nature in contrast to the physical nation of Israel. You are just missing the true interpretation of those scriptures and you think people are reinterpreting them. No. Romans 9:6-8 clearly contrasts two different Israels and Paul makes it clear that not all who are descended from the nation of Israel are part of the other Israel, which many of us call spiritual Israel or the Israel of God. And, in Galatians 6:15-16 Paul indicates that being circumcised or not has nothing to do with being part of the Israel of God, but rather being a new creation in Christ is what determines whether or not someone is part of the Israel of God. In Romans 2:28-29 Paul indicated that a person is a Jew inwardly (a spiritual Jew) by way of being spiritually circumcised of the heart and it has nothing to do with physical circumcision or anything physical.

You can believe God's promises.

I believe that Gentile believers are fellow citizens with Israelite believers and fellow heirs of God's promises with Israelite believers, just as Paul taught in Ephesians 2:11-3:6. Do you believe that?

One that is particularly ironclad,

Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

If you read verses 31-34 before that passage you can see that those verses relate to the new covenant. Do you not think that Gentile believers are saved under the new covenant? The new covenant was established by the shed blood of Christ.

Matthew 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

 

[covenantee]

We don't actually have any information specifically on what the 144,000 will be doing.

Sure we do. They and we have been doing it ever since the "church in the wilderness" Acts 7:38.

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful obedient saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:
Judah means “praise” (Genesis 29:35)
Reuben means “see, a Son” (Genesis 29:32)
Gad means “fortunate” (Genesis 30:11)
Asher means “happy” (Genesis 30:13)
Naphtali means “wrestling” (Genesis 30:8)
Manasseh means “forgetting” (Genesis 41:51)
Simeon means “heard” (Genesis 29:33)
Levi means “attached” (Genesis 29:34)
Issachar means “wages” (Genesis 30:18)
Zebulon means “dwelling” (Genesis 30:20)
Joseph means “He will add” (Genesis 30:24)
Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Genesis 35:17–18)

Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:

Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)
Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.

Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)
The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…Christ and His Church are written all over the 144,000.

 

[marks]

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:

The Bible tells us who these are, I'm going with that.

Much love!