Two Gatherings at Jesus' Coming

[marks]

One of the reasons I believe in a pre-trib rapture, there is no place for the body of Christ at His coming, only that we return with Jesus.

Matthew 24:30-31 KJV
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

These are Israel.

Joel 3:1 KJV
For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

Matthew 25:31-32 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

These are the Gentiles, both righteous and unrighteous.

Joel 3:2 KJV
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Joel 3:2 LITV
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat. And I will enter into judgment with them there, for My people and My inheritance, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations; and they shared out My land.

When Jesus returns, He will send the angels to gather Israel back to their promised land, and then will gather the gentiles to be judged. They will be separated righteous and wicked, based on whether they supplied the needs for Israel.

The Body of Christ is not judged righteous or wicked based on works, but is righteous being baptized into the body of Christ.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

One of the reasons I believe in a pre-trib rapture, there is no place for the body of Christ at His coming, only that we return with Jesus.

Matthew 24:30-31 KJV
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

These are Israel.

Joel 3:1 KJV
For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

Matthew 25:31-32 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

These are the Gentiles, both righteous and unrighteous.

Joel 3:2 KJV
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Joel 3:2 LITV
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat. And I will enter into judgment with them there, for My people and My inheritance, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations; and they shared out My land.

When Jesus returns, He will send the angels to gather Israel back to their promised land, and then will gather the gentiles to be judged. They will be separated righteous and wicked, based on whether they supplied the needs for Israel.

The Body of Christ is not judged righteous or wicked based on works, but is righteous being baptized into the body of Christ.

Much love!

Good point. I'm personally Postrib, but do recognize the difficulty in having the International Church here on earth when Christ comes again.

However, how many true Christians will be left at that time? You do realize, don't you, that the international Church must be here to suffer the persecution of the Beast, right? Or, do you think that only Jewish Christians will exist on earth during the reign of Antichrist?

 

[marks]

However, how many true Christians will be left at that time? You do realize, don't you, that the international Church must be here to suffer the persecution of the Beast, right? Or, do you think that only Jewish Christians will exist on earth during the reign of Antichrist?

Whomever is on the earth at that time, right? Whomever they may be?

Revelation 7:1-4 KJV
1) And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2) And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Here, we are told that "the servants of our God" will be sealed, which is inclusive wording, that is, all the servants of God. Like saying, "the people of the earth", that's all of them.

Here, they are numbered at 144,000, and they are all from the children of Israel.

So when we consider the gentiles during this time, this means there are no gentile "servants of our God" at this particular time in history.

but do recognize the difficulty in having the International Church here on earth when Christ comes again.

What do you see to be the difficulty?

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Whomever is on the earth at that time, right? Whomever they may be?

Revelation 7:1-4 KJV
1) And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2) And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Here, we are told that "the servants of our God" will be sealed, which is inclusive wording, that is, all the servants of God. Like saying, "the people of the earth", that's all of them.

Here, they are numbered at 144,000, and they are all from the children of Israel.

So when we consider the gentiles during this time, this means there are no gentile "servants of our God" at this particular time in history.


What do you see to be the difficulty?

Much love!

The difficulty is that you seem to be arguing that the Scriptures say only Jewish believers will be here to be persecuted by the Beast. But the Scriptures indicate this:

Rev 13.7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

Doesn't this sound as if *every nation* is under siege? And if only one nation has people that are being assaulted by the Beast, namely Jewish believers in Israel, then how are other nations being besieged?

The 2nd Beast likewise assaults all nations. How is this attack being reduced to only Jewish believers?...

Rev 13.16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

I concede to you that the International Church is viewed, in the Revelation, as being residents of heaven while Israel is portrayed as still being earthbound. But it does not make sense to me that the Beast will threaten only a minute part of the world, namely believers in Israel.

It seems much more logical to me that the International Church is being portrayed as though in heaven because we are spiritually aligned with Christ in heaven, being born of heaven.

Israel, by contrast, is still viewed as earthbound and not yet born again. This is all in keeping with John, who was raised up under the Law and now sees it as fulfilled in the Church.

 

[marks]

The difficulty is that you seem to be arguing that the Scriptures say only Jewish believers will be here to be persecuted by the Beast.

No, I'm not saying that.

I'm saying that when the 144,000 are sealed, they are the only servants of God on earth at that time. But I'm not saying more won't be added later. Though the Revelation makes general statements that the people won't repent.

But the Scriptures indicate this:

Rev 13.7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

Yes, all the nations are given to the beast. Will they be saved?

He forces all to worship and be marked, but these will not be Christians.

Something to note . . . "from the foundation of the world", as a clause, can be paired with "whose names do not remain written" or "the lamb slain", either is correct Greek.

The parallel passage however only makes the statement of

Revelation 17:8 KJV
8) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Written here is perfect tense, so these are the one's who, their names being written from the foundation of the world, these were blotted out, and will worship the beast. These are unsaved.

I concede to you that the International Church is viewed, in the Revelation, as being residents of heaven

Revelation 13:6 KJV
And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

"And", kai, is either additive or explanatory. That is, "his tabernacle, plus them that dwell in heaven", or, "he tabernacle, even those that dwell in heaven", either of these are correct Greek.

while Israel is portrayed as still being earthbound. But it does not make sense to me that the Beast will threaten only a minute part of the world, namely believers in Israel.

Definitely not just Israel,

Matthew 24:22 KJV
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

No, I'm not saying that.

I'm saying that when the 144,000 are sealed, they are the only servants of God on earth at that time. But I'm not saying more won't be added later. Though the Revelation makes general statements that the people won't repent.


Yes, all the nations are given to the beast. Will they be saved?

He forces all to worship and be marked, but these will not be Christians.

Something to note . . . "from the foundation of the world", as a clause, can be paired with "whose names do not remain written" or "the lamb slain", either is correct Greek.

The parallel passage however only makes the statement of

Revelation 17:8 KJV
8) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Written here is perfect tense, so these are the one's who, their names being written from the foundation of the world, these were blotted out, and will worship the beast. These are unsaved.

Revelation 13:6 KJV
And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

"And", kai, is either additive or explanatory. That is, "his tabernacle, plus them that dwell in heaven", or, "he tabernacle, even those that dwell in heaven", either of these are correct Greek.


Definitely not just Israel,

Matthew 24:22 KJV
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Much love!

This last part, "no flesh be saved," has to do, in my view, with the nation Israel. As I've said a number of times, the "Great Tribulation" is the Jewish Diaspora of the NT age. It is Israel's worst punishment in history. This is not just the 70 AD ordeal, but that was just the beginning of an age-long exile of the Jewish People. And this includes all of the pogroms and massacres of Jews that have taken place in NT history--truly a horrific judgment!

The existence of the Jewish People has been threatened repeatedly, but God assured Israel that they would ultimately be saved as a nation and regain their full stature in the Messianic Kingdom.

 

[marks]

This last part, "no flesh be saved," has to do, in my view, with the nation Israel. As I've said a number of times, the "Great Tribulation" is the Jewish Diaspora of the NT age. It is Israel's worst punishment in history. This is not just the 70 AD ordeal, but that was just the beginning of an age-long exile of the Jewish People. And this includes all of the pogroms and massacres of Jews that have taken place in NT history--truly a horrific judgment!

OK. And I see it as "no flesh" = all animal life on earth, the great tribulation time being after the AoD, in the middle of the 70th week,

The existence of the Jewish People has been threatened repeatedly, but God assured Israel that they would ultimately be saved as a nation and regain their full stature in the Messianic Kingdom.

Bringing us back to the topic :-)

That when Jesus comes, He will regather Israel for their kingdom, fulfilling the "gospel of the kingdom".

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

OK. And I see it as "no flesh" = all animal life on earth, the great tribulation time being after the AoD, in the middle of the 70th week,

Bringing us back to the topic :-)

That when Jesus comes, He will regather Israel for their kingdom, fulfilling the "gospel of the kingdom".

Much love!

I understand the part about the Church looking like it is already in heaven during the Reign of Antichrist. And the part about Israel being shown on the earth during this time, with 144,000 marked for salvation. It may look to you like 144,000 Jews get saved when the International Church exits to heaven.

But this seem so improbable to me. It's much more likely that the Church is portrayed as in heaven not because they are actually there, but only because the Church represents a heavenly people. Certainly the dead in Christ are already there. But even living Christians have their hope set in heaven together with Christ, making us all a "people of heaven."

I say this because it is so unlikely that 144,000 Jews suddenly get saved when the Rapture of the Church takes place. What would prompt this change, and why wouldn't it have happened *before* the Rapture?

Even worse, how can these baby Christians suddenly mature and win the whole world to Christ, meaning large groups of people from every nation on earth? If they're relatively young Christians, and have no mature help from Christians who have been Raptured, how on earth can they hope to both resist the Antichrist and win people across the world with antichristian opposition? It is so incredibly unlikely!

But my biggest problem with a Pretrib Rapture is that we are taught in 2 Thes 2 that this Rapture of the Church *cannot happen* unless Antichrist comes 1st. Actually, we are told in this chapter that Christ will come for his Church *at* the destruction of the Antichrist!

So doctrinally, it is not admissable that the Church actually gets to go to heaven before Antichrist arrives and persecutes 144,000 Jewish believers, who are still relative infants in Christ. This belief is the brain child of John Darby, who was convinced from earlier teaching that the Church must not suffer God's wrath, and so must escape before God's wrath falls upon the Antichristian world. Some today would call this "PreWrath."

There is a simple answer to this. Christians who die induring the Reign of Antichrist are not actually experiencing God's Wrath. The are victims of an ungodly world that has come under judgment.

And that judgment has actually been going on for 2000 years. We are not under God's Wrath. We will be raised from the dead at the proper time and rewarded for our fidelity to Christ. That's what I believe the Scriptures teach. I think we should believe Paul in 2 Thes 2.

 

[jeffweeder]

One of the reasons I believe in a pre-trib rapture, there is no place for the body of Christ at His coming, only that we return with Jesus.

This may help you find your place....,

20 But you, beloved, build yourselves up on [the foundation of] your most holy faith [continually progress, rise like an edifice higher and higher], pray in the Holy Spirit, 21 and keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously and looking forward to the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ [which will bring you] to eternal life. 22 And have mercy on some, who are doubting; 23 save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy but with fear, loathing even the clothing spotted and polluted by their shameless immoral freedom.

24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling or falling into sin, and to present you unblemished [blameless and faultless] in the presence of His glory with triumphant joy and unspeakable delight, 25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and power, before all time and now and forever. Amen.


God is going to need to need some of us faithful to drag some unbelievers from the surrounding flames.
Do you deny a last minute sincere confession can save you? Could be you that drags him out and i am sure you would be thrilled about that .
We need you , they need you.
God bless.

 

[Scott Downey]

Why the Early Church Finally Rejected Premillennialism | Modern Reformation

Chiliasm (1) is the ancient name for what today is known as premillennialism, the belief that when Jesus Christ returns he will not execute the last judgment at once, but will first set up on earth a temporary kingdom, where resurrected saints will rule with him over non-resurrected subjects for...

www.modernreformation.org

 

[Scott Downey]

I don't believe in a divided body of Christ with 2 destinies.
God's people , all of them inherit the kingdom, at the same time together.

Matthew 25:34
Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Matthew 13
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

1 Corinthians 15
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made[i] of dust; the second Man is [j]the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the [k]man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we[l] shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

Our Final Victory​

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a [m]mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

55 “O[n] Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

 

[Scott Downey]

@marks and anyone else interested, there is only the one body, the same body of believers.
There are not 2 destinies and 2 bodies of Christ. Gentiles are fellow heirs with the believing JEWS of the same body.

Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 3 - New King James Version

The Mystery Revealed - For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when...

www.biblegateway.com

The Mystery Revealed​

1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2 if indeed you have heard of the [a]dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

 

[Scott Downey]

One of the reasons I believe in a pre-trib rapture, there is no place for the body of Christ at His coming, only that we return with Jesus.

Matthew 24:30-31 KJV
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

These are Israel.

Joel 3:1 KJV
For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

Matthew 25:31-32 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

These are the Gentiles, both righteous and unrighteous.

Joel 3:2 KJV
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Joel 3:2 LITV
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat. And I will enter into judgment with them there, for My people and My inheritance, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations; and they shared out My land.

When Jesus returns, He will send the angels to gather Israel back to their promised land, and then will gather the gentiles to be judged. They will be separated righteous and wicked, based on whether they supplied the needs for Israel.

The Body of Christ is not judged righteous or wicked based on works, but is righteous being baptized into the body of Christ.

Much love!

These are Israel??

Joel 3:1 KJV
For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

Matthew 25:31-32 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

 

[marks]

This may help you find your place....,

I'm not sure what you mean by this . . .

Much love!

 

[Scott Downey]

What do you think happens to unbelieving Jews who reject Christ?

Same thing that happens to unbelieving gentiles.

They are not saved, they do not inherit the kingdom of God.
They do inherit the kingdom of the father Satan, where he goes, they all go to be with him and his angels.

Example in John 5
31 “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not [e]true. 32 There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true. 33 You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. 35 He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light. 36 But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

 

[marks]

These are Israel??

Joel 3:1 KJV
For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

Matthew 25:31-32 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Yes, these refer to the two gatherings. "bring again the captivity" and "return the captivity" are OT idioms for restoring a nation that had been captive, and now they are restored to their homeland.

Much love!

 

[Scott Downey]

Yes, these refer to the two gatherings. "bring again the captivity" and "return the captivity" are OT idioms for restoring a nation that had been captive, and now they are restored to their homeland.

Much love!

Not your second quoted verse
Can we agree that judgment is referring to all people of all nations


Matthew 25:31-32 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

 

[Scott Downey]

People of all nations are judged, people make up the various nations. People have eternal destinies, not nations which are defined by boundaries on the land. Because someone is a member of a nation does not condemn them, or make them righteous.

The only nation that is saved is the people of God whom Peter calls a holy nation, and their is only one holy nation, and they form the body of Christ.

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer [d]Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[marks]

I understand the part about the Church looking like it is already in heaven during the Reign of Antichrist. And the part about Israel being shown on the earth during this time, with 144,000 marked for salvation. It may look to you like 144,000 Jews get saved when the International Church exits to heaven.

Yes, that is what it looks like to me.

When the body of Christ is caught up to Jesus - the rapture - God sends His angel to seal 144,000 Jews, as God continues to have His witness to the world. Israel was God's witness, then the body of Christ, then the 144,000 and the two prophets/witnesses. The two witnesses will be killed and caught up to heaven, and the 144,000 translated into heaven around the midpoint of the 70th week. And then angels will fly in the skies giving God's Word to the people of the earth.

But this seem so improbable to me. It's much more likely that the Church is portrayed as in heaven not because they are actually there, but only because the Church represents a heavenly people. Certainly the dead in Christ are already there. But even living Christians have their hope set in heaven together with Christ, making us all a "people of heaven."

Revelation 7:9 KJV
9) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 7:13-14 KJV
13) And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14) And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The group is identified as those that "came out of great tribulation". One thing about that, John, in his writings, often switched EK and APO. Whether this is one of those places or not, I can't say, but it seems so to me. With certain exceptions I see this vision as mostly in sequencial order, meaning this occurs as early as it appears in the vision.

One example is where Luke wrote in correct Koine Greek quoting Jesus, "If I be lifted up APO away from the earth", John quoted the same, but wrote it, "If I be lifted up EK out of the earth". And there are a number of examples. When I looked at this I filled page of times John switched these.

I say this because it is so unlikely that 144,000 Jews suddenly get saved when the Rapture of the Church takes place. What would prompt this change, and why wouldn't it have happened *before* the Rapture?

I don't see any problems with this.

1 Samuel 10:26 KJV
And Saul also went home to Gibeah; and there went with him a band of men, whose hearts God had touched.

Just like Muslims are having visions of Jesus and becoming Christians, it could happen to them also.

One thing, I think the rapture will occur in conjunction with the Gog/Magog battle, in the worldwide earthquake. When the Israelites see the miraculous destruction of their enemies, why not?

As for, why not before the rapture? God has His ways. Israel is set to the side in partial blindness until the full complement of gentiles is come in. Then Israel begins to be saved, first in the 144,000. I see these as fulfilling the part in Matthew 10:

Matthew 10:23-27 KJV
23) But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
24) The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
25) It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
26) Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
27) What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

But that's a different topic. We don't have to delve into this.

Even worse, how can these baby Christians suddenly mature and win the whole world to Christ, meaning large groups of people from every nation on earth? If they're relatively young Christians, and have no mature help from Christians who have been Raptured, how on earth can they hope to both resist the Antichrist and win people across the world with antichristian opposition? It is so incredibly unlikely!

But look at the early church, the Apostles and new believers, doing amazing miracles, teaching the church, Stephen, for instance, even in the early days, giants of the faith. Or the builders of the tabernacle.

Exodus 28:3 KJV
And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.

Exodus 36:2 KJV
And Moses called Bezaleel and Aholiab, and every wise hearted man, in whose heart the LORD had put wisdom, even every one whose heart stirred him up to come unto the work to do it:

The Holy Spirit is most certainly able to work wonders in and through His people.

I don't see them as world evangelists, I think they evangelize Israel.

But my biggest problem with a Pretrib Rapture is that we are taught in 2 Thes 2 that this Rapture of the Church *cannot happen* unless Antichrist comes 1st.

Actually it teaches that the day of the Lord cannot come until antichrist is revealed. It does not say this about the rapture. What Paul is saying there is, concerning our being gathered to the Lord (the rapture), don't be upset because people are telling you the Day of the Lord is here.

Why would the be upset about that?

If "the day of the Lord/Christ" (depending on your manuscript) meant the rapture, why get upset when someone tells you "rapture day is here"? But that's not what they were saying, they were saying, apparently, the Day of the Lord is here.

The believers would be upset if they expected to be raptured before the day of the Lord.

Actually, we are told in this chapter that Christ will come for his Church *at* the destruction of the Antichrist!

Are you thinking of this place?

2 Thessalonians 2:8 KJV
8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

This does not speak concerning the gathering of those "in Christ".

So doctrinally, it is not admissable that the Church actually gets to go to heaven before Antichrist arrives and persecutes 144,000 Jewish believers, who are still relative infants in Christ. This belief is the brain child of John Darby, who was convinced from earlier teaching that the Church must not suffer God's wrath, and so must escape before God's wrath falls upon the Antichristian world. Some today would call this "PreWrath."

No, this comes from my years of personal Bible study. Forget about Darby! This has nothing to do with him. I learn from the Bible.

Concerning "pre-wrath", as I've learned that view, this is the idea that they church is raptured after the plagues of the trumpets, after the time of great tribulation, and before the wrath of God poured out from the bowls.

Where Paul wrote in Thessalonians that we are not appointed to wrath, this could just as well refer to wrath of final judgment.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 KJV
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

There is a simple answer to this. Christians who die induring the Reign of Antichrist are not actually experiencing God's Wrath. The are victims of an ungodly world that has come under judgment.

And that judgment has actually been going on for 2000 years. We are not under God's Wrath. We will be raised from the dead at the proper time and rewarded for our fidelity to Christ. That's what I believe the Scriptures teach. I think we should believe Paul in 2 Thes 2.

There is persecution and affliction from the early church until now, and it will continue. No one is immune from these. Paul wrote to Timothy that all who even just want to live godly will suffer persecution.

To respond directly, I don't count some sort of "wrath exemption" as a "need" for a pre-trib rapture. I'm not about anticipated outcomes, only, what does the Bible say/not say.

And I also think we should believe God's Word as given through Paul, and all the others. :-)

Much love!

 

[marks]

God is going to need to need some of us faithful to drag some unbelievers from the surrounding flames.
Do you deny a last minute sincere confession can save you? Could be you that drags him out and i am sure you would be thrilled about that .
We need you , they need you.
God bless.

That all sounds great, and may we excel in this more and more as the day draws near. Just the same, our doctrine is to be formed from the teachings of Scripture. When it's our time to go, however it may happen, that's it, our time is over.

Much love!