Is it possible to lose salvation?

[LoveYeshua]

Why is it always the one's who promote salvation by works who are the most obsessed with this topic? It's these folks who seem to suffer from a severe case of anti-OSAS derangement syndrome.

In regard to James 5:19-20, notice - Brethren, if anyone "among" you wanders from the truth..turns a "sinner" from the error of his way.. Some would argue that James says this one who turned from the truth was a "sinner," and was "among" but "not of" the Brethren, then he wasn’t previously saved. That fits 1 John 2:19 - They went out "from" us, but they were "not of" us..

IF this person was a genuine believer, yet how do we know for sure this is the second death in the lake of fire? In Matthew 26:38, Jesus said: "My soul [psuche] is deeply grieved, to the point of death." Jesus was not saying that His soul was deeply grieved to the point of spiritual death, Rather, Jesus was talking about physical death, his human life. In Revelation 16:3, "The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living soul [psuche] in the sea died". In 1 Peter 3:20 "... God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, [psuche-souls] were brought safely (saved from drowning, physical death) through the water" by the ark. (Hebrews 11:7) "Soul" is rendered from the Greek word "psuche" and is also translated as "life".

Jesus covered our sins in one way (Romans 4:7) by bringing forgiveness for all believers, yet sins can also be covered in a different way. In Proverbs 10:12, we read: Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins. In 1 Peter 4:8, we read: And above all things have fervent love for one another, for "love will cover a multitude of sins." Where there is strife, there is hatred and unless love prevails, the strife will get worse. Love covers offenses and sins when a believer turns back from error.

So is this wanderer a professing Christian, whose faith is not genuine, or a sinning Christian, who needs to be restored? For the former, the death spoken of in vs. 20 is the "second death" (Revelation 21:8); for the latter, it is physical death. (1 Corinthians 11:29-32; 1 John 5:16)

You say people promote salvation by works, it is not the case, did you ever read James??

IF you read Jesus in the synoptic gospel you would see that he constantly asked people to stop sinning! repentance was with the Kingdom of Heaven. Can you once saved continue to sin? Do you not know it is a requirement to enter Heaven? it is simple jesus said if you love me Follow the commandments, yes it requires action on your part, like foe example t be considerate towards one another like Jesus asked is to love one another as have loved you
Why do you deny what was clearly explained to remain faithful to Christ and follow him until the end? If anyone continues to sin, knowing full well they do so will they be granted access to heaven , ABSOLUTELY NOT!
Repent ! You teach false doctrine here and before accusing others that DO follow the words of Christ, look at yourself in the mirror, are you so good that you will make it to Heaven? Jesus was clear many are called but few will make it. Remember it is by the words of Christ that all shall be judged.

No need to reply because I will not

 

[RomeSweetHome]

Well I cannot tell if blue letter uses a later revised LXX and used syngenes . But in three Greek manuscripts of the OT I found syngenes was not there.

Please provide citations, links, or information to identify these "three Greek manuscripts." Because, candidly, it seems like you are compounding fabrication ("maybe the blue letter bible uses a later revised LXX!") upon fabrication ("syngenes was not in Koine Greek when the LXX was translated!") to try to avoid being caught in a falsehood.

Indeed, doing just a little more digging (Greek) further demonstrates that what you declared were "unalterable facts" that syngenes was "not in Koine Greek" for the LXX translators to use is, again, simply false.

Take just a few examples from Demosthenes (384-322 BC):

• Against Boeotus 1.23: "ἀλλὰ πρὶν ἡμέτερος φάσκειν συγγενὴς εἶναι" ("but before he claims to be our kinsman");
• Against Boeotus 1.34: "ἀλλʼ ἂν μέν, ὥσπερ εἶναι φὴς ἀδελφός, καὶ τὰ ἔργʼ ἀδελφοῦ ποιῇς, δόξεις εἶναι συγγενής" ("but if you are, as it were, a brother, and you do the works of a brother, you will seem to be a relative" {note how "ἀδελφός" and "συγγενής" here are used, like in Tobit, as if interchangeable synonyms});
• Against Leochares 32: "ὧν ἦν συγγενὴς . . . ὁ τετελευτηκώς" ("the deceased was a relative").

Even older examples (e.g., Herodotus, 5th century BC) are available in the list I linked to above, as are other contemporaneous and later examples.

I'd love for you to prove me wrong by producing your sources for your claim here; because it's hard not to conclude you are either making up claims, or else deliberately speaking falsely, about *the very text of Sacred Scripture.*

I do accuse because they have and I listed some of the false doctrines.

You have done this multiple times now, true. This is called the "Gish gallop." It's a bad-faith debate move by which the person doing it "attempts to overwhelm an opponent by presenting an excessive number of arguments, without regard for their accuracy or strength, with a rapidity that makes it impossible for the opponent to address them in the time available"; that is, the person doing it "confronts an opponent with a rapid series of specious arguments, half-truths, misrepresentations, and outright lies, making it impossible for the opponent to refute all of them within the format of the debate." We can walk through all of these points--currently, we are on the perpetual virginity--but you simply hurling out bald claims that a number of doctrines or practices are, in your view, "heretical" or "blasphemous" is unproductive and pointless. If anything, it makes you seem defensive, as if you cannot succeed on the topic at hand so you have to obfuscate by raising as many other objections as you can think of to change the subject.

The greatest of these is losing ones salvation. That is heresy and blasphemy against the blood shed by Jesus .

Add this to the list of erroneous claims you make that we can take up once we've sorted out the perpetual virginity.

 

[mailmandan]

You say people promote salvation by works, it is not the case, did you ever read James??

Many people do promote salvation by works and yes, I have read James, numerous times. James 2:14-26 is often misinterpreted by works-salvationists, and the end result is salvation by works.

IF you read Jesus in the synoptic gospel, you would see that he constantly asked people to stop sinning! repentance was with the Kingdom of Heaven.

So, do you claim to be sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time? Exactly like Jesus Christ? Do you define repentance as "completely stop sinning?" 1 John 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. That does not sound like sinless perfection to me.

Can you once saved continue to sin?

1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Do you know the difference between practicing sin and sinless perfection?

Do you not know it is a requirement to enter Heaven?

Sinless perfection is a requirement to enter Heaven? Good luck with that! Self-righteousness does not lead to Heaven. (Luke 18:9-14)

it is simple Jesus said if you love me Follow the commandments, yes it requires action on your part, like foe example t be considerate towards one another like Jesus asked is to love one another as have loved you

In John 14:15, Jesus said - If you love Me, keep My commandments. 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments.

Strong's Greek: 5083. τηρέω (téreó) -- To keep, to guard, to observe, to watch over

Why do you deny what was clearly explained to remain faithful to Christ and follow him until the end?

Remaining faithful to Christ and following Him until the end is descriptive of believers. It's about the direction of our walk and not the sinless perfection of our walk. Only Jesus Christ was without sin. (2 Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 4:15; 1 Peter 2:22)

If anyone continues to sin, knowing full well they do so will they be granted access to heaven, ABSOLUTELY NOT!

So, how many of us (besides Jesus Christ) have never sinned? (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8-10)

Repent! You teach false doctrine here and before accusing others that DO follow the words of Christ, look at yourself in the mirror, are you so good that you will make it to Heaven?

Repent of what? I have already repented, and I believe the gospel. (Acts 3:19; 15:7-9; 20:21; Romans 1:16) What about you? So, what false doctrine am I teaching? None of us will make it to Heaven because we are good "in of ourselves." (Romans 3:10-12) In Luke 18:19, Jesus said - “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good except God alone. This profound question prompts the ruler to consider the Jesus' goodness and divine nature. Jesus is God. (John 1:1-14)

Jesus was clear many are called but few will make it. Remember it is by the words of Christ that all shall be judged.

Few will make it because few trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. (John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 10:9, 11:25,26; 14:6; Acts 4:12; 10:43; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-26; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..). Sadly, many trust in works and in self, and not in Jesus Christ alone. (Matthew 7:22-23)

No need to reply because I will not

I can see that you are not interested in reasoning through the scriptures which is very telling.

 

[mailmandan]

I happened to unignore this thread, and yikes, yes, there is a lot of hostility! So sad to see!

Much love!

Sad indeed. We need to remember though that there are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers mixed together on various Christian forum sites, and many people are very passionate about what they believe so when disagreement arises, hostility (at least to some degree) becomes inevitable. I've noticed over the last 15 years on various Christian forum sites that hostility seems to be increasing.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Hyper Calvinism was designed for fools.

As only a fool will believe and teach what it teaches.

So, you've been taught by this Satanic Doctrine that some in your family are going to Hell, and were pre-chosen to go to Hell before they were born. @Christian Soldier
This means that, according to your Hyper-Calvinism theology.........God refused to allow them to Trust in Christ.
Ive now asked you 5X who in your own family has been pre-chosen to go to Hell, according to what you believe and teach..
Is it your Mother? your Dad? Your Grandparents? A Sister or Brother?
See, this is what you are teaching....and yet you can't even face it yourself @Christian Soldier .... and admit who in your famiy has been pre-destined for Hell.

It's time you faced it little one. @Christian Soldier

And the other question you've been asked 5X.....is.....>"Why would God choose some in your family to Go to Hell, but not you"?

So, = Why is that Mr John Hyper Calvinsim? @Christian Soldier ???????????????????????????????

I don't know what "hyper Calvinism" is but it sounds like it was invented to give fools something to obsess over. I see you are completely obsessed and fascinated by it.
I personally don't invest any time in such trash, I will leave that to the f0ools and I will continue to invest my time studying the Word of God instead. So you can have it all to yourself.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Do you find it astonishing how much John Calvin is an obsession here?
I looked up his teachings.

It's all derived from the Bible. But some here are so fixated on Calvin that it obscures their vision of the Words of Yahweh.

It's like bad parrots in the same game. "That's Calvinism,Calvinism,Calvinism." And from the rest of it those parties don't have a clue.
They just repeat what others accuse.

We shouldn't be surprised to see such opposition to the gospel of the Lord Jesus. The Bible warns us to expect this type of response when we share the gospel. I can't say (preach the gospel here) as preaching the gospel is not allowed on this forum.

2 Corinthians 2:16 tells us how people respond to the truth of the gospel.

"To the one we are the aroma of death leading to death, and to the other the aroma of life leading to life". This verse explains that for those who reject the gospel, the message is a "stench of death," while for believers, it is an "aroma of life".

Gods Word reveals why those of us who are true believers, will face opposition from those who falsely profess to be believers.
The true gospel is highly offensive to unbelievers, so we can expect to be persecuted for defending the true gospel.

 

[mailmandan]

We shouldn't be surprised to see such opposition to the gospel of the Lord Jesus. The Bible warns us to expect this type of response when we share the gospel. I can't say (preach the gospel here) as preaching the gospel is not allowed on this forum.

2 Corinthians 2:16 tells us how people respond to the truth of the gospel.

"To the one we are the aroma of death leading to death, and to the other the aroma of life leading to life". This verse explains that for those who reject the gospel, the message is a "stench of death," while for believers, it is an "aroma of life".

Gods Word reveals why those of us who are true believers, will face opposition from those who falsely profess to be believers.
The true gospel is highly offensive to unbelievers, so we can expect to be persecuted for defending the true gospel.

The true gospel is highly offensive to unbelievers/make believers because they receive no credit for salvation. All the credit goes to Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:18 - For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

 

[nedsk]

Don't flatter yourself. I've been challenged numerous times over several years on various Christian forum sites. Now I don't claim to be a scholar and I don't claim to be infallible. Have you ever considered that you might be wrong? Glad to see you are entertained by us people. I'm not entertained by those who promote a works-based false gospel.

All the time unlike you.

I don't promote a "works based" gospel. You can't even understand what I wrote but I'm supposed to believe you have a superior understanding to Scripture than I do? You really are a funny character.

 

[mailmandan]

All the time unlike you.

I don't promote a "works based" gospel. You can't even understand what I wrote but I'm supposed to believe you have a superior understanding to Scripture than I do? You really are a funny character.

Unlike me, huh? Our understanding of Scripture is not based on superior intellect. (1 Corinthians 2:11-14) Now I do understand more than you think about what you wrote and prior to my conversion several years ago, I was born and raised in the RCC.

So, you don't promote a "works based" gospel? Prove it by answering my question: Are we saved/justified/accounted as righteous by faith in Jesus Christ alone or by faith and works?

 

[nedsk]

Unlike me, huh? Our understanding of Scripture is not based on superior intellect. (1 Corinthians 2:11-14) Now I do understand more than you think about what you wrote and prior to my conversion several years ago, I was born and raised in the RCC.

So, you don't promote a "works based" gospel? Prove it by answering my question: Are we saved/justified/accounted as righteous by faith in Jesus Christ alone or by faith and works?

Scripture says a faith without works is dead. Now you're turn to answer. How does a dead save anyone?

 

[marks]

Sad indeed. We need to remember though that there are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers mixed together on various Christian forum sites, and many people are very passionate about what they believe so when disagreement arises, hostility (at least to some degree) becomes inevitable. I've noticed over the last 15 years on various Christian forum sites that hostility seems to be increasing.

I know, and I agree, it's sad. There are false Christians, and immature Christians, and we need discernment.

Much love!

 

[mailmandan]

Scripture says a faith without works is dead. Now you're turn to answer. How does a dead save anyone?

So, you DO teach salvation by faith AND works. I already knew that. Been there, done that. In regard to "faith without works is dead," James does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree.

James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Father rejoiced at his son's return. Welcome with open heart and arms. The son never stopped being a son.

Just as the Father rejoices whenever WE return in repentance.

The point is that the son rejected the Father, his home and his legacy.
The idea that we can’t reject God because we’re Christians is unbiblical.

 

[walter]

So, you DO teach salvation by faith AND works. I already knew that. Been there, done that. In regard to "faith without works is dead," James does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree.

James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)

Jesus gave us Salvation He paid the price in the first place, it is not from anything we do, it is a free gift, it's all about what Jesus did!

So why do we do what Jesus commanded us? Answer: Matthew 28:20, Hebrews 5:9, Luke 8:21

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

I happened to unignore this thread, and yikes, yes, there is a lot of hostility!

Yeah when those who are teaching false doctrine get corrected, they always scream "you are being hostile to me"

The pharisees and sadducees thought Jesus was being hostile towards them all because Jesus rejected their doctrines of demons

 

[nedsk]

I know, and I agree, it's sad. There are false Christians, and immature Christians, and we need discernment.

Much love!

But you're neither of those am I right? How could you be right?

 

[nedsk]

So, you DO teach salvation by faith AND works. I already knew that. Been there, done that. In regard to "faith without works is dead," James does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree.

James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)

It's not what I teach its what Scripture teaches. I'm not arrogant enough to believe I teach anything like most of the people I meet here.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

One more thing on this--

I had taken at face value your claim that "syngenes" (συγγενὴς) was "not in Koine Greek" when the LXX was translated. But that, too, is evidently false. It appears five times in the Greek Old Testament, three in Leviticus, one in 2 Samuel, one in Ezekiel. G4773 - syngenēs - Strong's Greek Lexicon (lxx).

I will have to investigate why this discrepancy. Obviously syngenes is in the septuigant. I will have to find why the info I looked up is wrong. So I will apologize for posting bad info.

But this is even more damning evidence for th eRomanist position that James , Joses, Simon and Judah and at least two adelphoi are merely cousins and not biological family.
for if this is correct (and for now I do not doubt, Blue letter bible is a very reliable source) it just means that syngenes was even more common and well known. God would not have made that mistake in inspiration.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I am a Catholic, which IS the "real" Church.
What is "Romanism"?

IIt is the theology of Roman Catholicism.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Oh really? So to a guy named Bob then?

Is that what Bob told you? The only church that existed was the Catholic Church for 1500 years.

Now that Romanism existed for only 1500 years, that we can agree on. The roman Catholic church was not born until the 500's. Before that it was simply Christians and small c catholic Christians.