Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is not God?
Or that the Spirit is only a manifestation of the one God?
Not a distinct person of the godhead?
How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?
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Or that the Spirit is only a manifestation of the one God?
Not a distinct person of the godhead?
ProverbsInPink
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God,His identity as Creator, is Spirit.
And Holy.
ProverbsInPink
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Incorrect. It sounds like Isaiah 43:11
I, I am the Lord, and besides me there is no savior.
But when JW's call Jesus' warnings, and this forum's Statement of Faith, Jesus' doctrine of Hell Fire Satanic, any true Christian would get upset.It would be nice if it was allowed to be an open discussion....especially here in the “unorthodox” forum.....but there are some things where being open is not permitted here....sadly because too many people get hot under the collar about it....there is the convenient truth or the inconvenient lie......unless you can discuss it openly, the lies will persist because the truth is gagged.
Free speech is a blessing.....where it exists....and people can restrain themselves and accept that there are other opinions about a wide range of topics....including this one.
We really don’t really need this....to defend is not to offend. Agree to disagree.
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So you don't believe Jesus is God, Hell Fire is EVERLASTING and the Bible is the Word of God?
Still won't answer?
Jesus called the Holy Spirit a person in the NT.
John 15:26 NIV
“When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—
the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.
Don't you even know that God sent Himself in the flesh??? Really stevie, you don't know that Jesus is God, Hell is forever, the Bible is the Word of God. And you're teaching people? Read the CYB Statement of Faith. Live and learn for a change instead of Bible chopping opinions.
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ProverbsInPink
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Well of course. You have to realize God in flesh was speaking to humans in terms they could comprehend.
Imagine the confusion in people in 1st century who did not know who Jesus was as we do today and hearing him say,I will send myself from myself so to testify about myself.
Aunty Jane
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In Hebrew, “the Lord” there is “Jehovah”. There is only one Jehovah. (Psalm 83:18 KJV)
Isa 43:11...
“ I, I am the Lord, (Jehovah) and besides me there is no savior (yāša)” (ESV)
Jehovah is the one who “sent” the savior, so there would have been no one redeemed or delivered without him.
Both Father and son can bear the title, “savior” or “deliverer”, (“yāšaʿ”) because the one who sent the savior is also a savior.
Who else could be called a savior?
At Judges 3:9....
“But when the people of Israel cried out to the Lord, the Lord raised up a deliverer (yāšaʿ) for the people of Israel, who saved them, Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother.” (ESV)
Judges 3:15...
“Then the people of Israel cried out to the Lord, and the Lord raised up for them a deliverer, (yāšaʿ) Ehud, the son of Gera, the Benjaminite....”. (ESV)
This shows that the title “savior” or “deliverer” is not exclusive to God and his son....anyone in the role of a rescuer is a savior. But only one is the primary Savior who “raised up” other saviors....and that is Jehovah.
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Aunty Jane
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The beginning of what? An eternal God has no beginning or end.
That expression does not appear in Scripture even once. Jesus called himself “the Son of God”.
Does it?
In Greek it says something different.
“In the beginning was the Word, (ho logos) and the Word (ho logos) was with God, (ho theos) and the Word was God. (theos).
The placement of the definite article before the first “theos” renders that verse as incorrectly translated.
If it was correctly translated, it would read...
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Jehovah, and the Word was divine.”
There were no capital letters in Greek, so giving the second “theos” a capital letter is misleading.
How can you be “with” someone and yet BE that someone? That takes some tap dancing....
In giving the Revelation to John, Jesus said...
“The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’ “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation. (Rev 3:12-14 ESV)
It is clear that even in heaven the Father is the God of Jesus, who then describes himself as” the beginning of God’s creation”.
Who then is contradicting the Bible?
It says that “ho logos” “became flesh”.....not that “ho theos” “became flesh”....
What is the problem with “ho theos” becoming flesh?
“ho theos” (Jehovah) as we know, is immortal....but the one he sent had to die...immortals cannot die.
So if Jesus did not die the same death as Adam, the ransom is not paid and we are still unforgiven in our sins.
“ho logos” was a glorious being , but so were all of God’s other “sons”. The spirit being who became satan the devil was also a glorious being, but Ezekiel tells us that his magnificence was his undoing.
Presented as a dirge to a wicked King who emulated the devil, Ezekiel was inspired to say....
“Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord God:“You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you. Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor....” (Ezekiel 28: 12-17 ESV)
This is not a description of any human....there were only three persons present in Eden....this “created” one was appointed as a “guardian cherub”....a magnificent creature who coveted the worship that the humans would give to God....and he plotted to gain what he wanted....He even tempted Jesus, promising tho give Jesus “all the kingdoms of the world” in exchange for just one act of worship. (Luke 4:5-8)
Jesus said that he wanted to return to his Father so that his glorious spirit body would be restored.
John 17: 3-5 ESV....In prayer to his Father Jesus said.....
“And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.”
Can we imagine the humility it took to give up his magnificent spirit body in heaven to take on the role of a “bond servant” on earth?...and to be put to death at the hands of God’s enemies as a blasphemer! ?
That is what real self sacrificing love looks like.
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From the CYB Statement of Faith: "We believe that God is the Creator, Sustainer, and Ruler of the universe. We attest that God has eternally existed in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three are co-equal and are one God. (Genesis 1:1, 26-27, Genesis 3:22, Deuteronomy 6:4, Psalm 90:2, John 1:1, John 10:30, Romans 3:30, II Corinthians 13:14, I Peter 1:2)"
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This sentence in the statement of faith of many denominations and organizations is unbiblical in my view.
It declares a pre-existent Christ. Yet the first chapter of the Gospel of John declares that the Word (Logos)
was from the beginning and that the Word (Logos) became flesh. That flesh was the Son of God, Jesus Christ.
The Logos was with God in the beginning, the Logos was God. All things were made through the Logos.
The Son of God, Jesus Christ remembers being the Logos previously. Saying, He had seen the Father.
John 1:1-3, 14 NIV
In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made;
without him nothing was made that has been made. ...
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son,
who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Of course! Just like the Genesis Flood that Jesus clearly confirmed is "myth" according to stevie. Is your salvation myth also stevie? Or do you just pick the parts of the Bible you like?
BINGO!
Yeah, that's what I said many times. Jesus is God. Just like the CYB Statement of Faith says!
I don't disagree with Jesus as God.
I disagree with a pre-existent Jesus.
The Word (Logos) became flesh. That was Jesus then, not before.
Matthew 1:25 NIV
But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son.
And he gave him the name Jesus.
soberxp
Well-Known Member
After my own in-depth study of the Bible, I found that the doctrine of the Trinity is redundant interpretation, the words of the Bible itself are clear, Jesus Christ is the image of the invisible God.
The Bible didn't say Jesus Christ is the invisible God.
Imagine that you are God yourself. From the void there is only yourself in the world. Would you want to create a being like yourself?
So angles and human, then Jesus Christ pop up.
I don't know why angels are not described as images of God.
Angels are also obey the will of God as Jesus Christ did.
And there is another question, why God didn't made us in the image of angels, but born in the human body.
This is a very confusing mystery, if Adam and Eve made a mistake, Then leave two people who have made mistakes to teach in the world, others made as angels is not the same?
Is it only when enough people have sinned that the shame of sinning is diminished?
Or, more boldly, God wanted the creature to be different from him, so the cunning serpent existed.
But when it is different from God, it becomes evil.
It's hard to imagine God's true purpose and purpose. God is honest, but is our way of thinking very different from God's? That our understanding completely distorts the will of God.
The Bible didn't say Jesus Christ is the invisible God.
Imagine that you are God yourself. From the void there is only yourself in the world. Would you want to create a being like yourself?
So angles and human, then Jesus Christ pop up.
I don't know why angels are not described as images of God.
Angels are also obey the will of God as Jesus Christ did.
And there is another question, why God didn't made us in the image of angels, but born in the human body.
This is a very confusing mystery, if Adam and Eve made a mistake, Then leave two people who have made mistakes to teach in the world, others made as angels is not the same?
Is it only when enough people have sinned that the shame of sinning is diminished?
Or, more boldly, God wanted the creature to be different from him, so the cunning serpent existed.
But when it is different from God, it becomes evil.
It's hard to imagine God's true purpose and purpose. God is honest, but is our way of thinking very different from God's? That our understanding completely distorts the will of God.
From the CYB Statement of Faith: "We believe that God is the Creator, Sustainer, and Ruler of the universe. We attest that God has eternally existed in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three are co-equal and are one God. (Genesis 1:1, 26-27, Genesis 3:22, Deuteronomy 6:4, Psalm 90:2, John 1:1, John 10:30, Romans 3:30, II Corinthians 13:14, I Peter 1:2)"
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