Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
No Yahweh had a Son, He impregnated a woman and she delivered a God. That is why Yeshua said “My Father” around 50 times in the New Testament. Words mean things.
How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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No Yahweh had a Son, He impregnated a woman and she delivered a God. That is why Yeshua said “My Father” around 50 times in the New Testament. Words mean things.
The Holy Spirit did. Jesus was the Son before incarnation, because He proceeds from the Father eternally.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Why? We are Christians, not Jews. The New Testament is the main source of our theology.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
The Apostles were out to point out that Yeshua was a God, but at times they just went to far. Sometimes the New Testament demotes God the Father to a janitor….But then Christ said….The Father is greater than I. But then again at times the Apostles would say there is one true God and then referred to Yeshua as Lord.
The apostles never said that Jesus is "a God", they always said "God".
To say that the apostles went too far is nonsensical from the Christian point of view, they were taught by Christ and there is no more direct source of teaching in Christianity.
They never demoted God the Father. Your phrasing and how you present your ideas is inappropriate.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
No, that is the point they called Him Lord.
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. 2nd Corinthians 13:14
And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” Matthew 3:16-17
Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, “and” one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. 1st Corinthians 8:6
"Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell my brothers, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God'" John 20:17
About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?” that is, “MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?” Matthew 27:46
According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you. 1st Peter 1:2
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. John 14:26
Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Grace be with all those who love our Lord Jesus Christ with a love incorruptible. Ephesians 6:23-24
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful, and he will do it. Brothers and sisters, pray for us. Greet all God’s people with a holy kiss. I charge you before the Lord to have this letter read to all the brothers and sisters. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. 1st Thessalonians 5:23-28
Now may the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teachings, he has both the Father and the Son. 2nd John 1:9
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. John 14:16-17
But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. John 15:26
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
Ephesians 4:4-6
To our God and Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen. Greet all God’s people in Christ Jesus. The brothers and sisters who are with me send greetings. All God’s people here send you greetings, especially those who belong to Caesar’s household. The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen. Philippians 4:20-23
At times they took creation away from God the Father and said Yeshua created everything. But just at times.
None of these verses calls Jesus "a God". Your verses prove that Father is God, which is fine, I have nothing against that.
They did not take creation away from the Father. The Father is the source of everything. But the Father created everything through His Son.
You would need to understand the Hellenistic Judaism concept of Logos, to see what they worked with:
Philo - Wikipedia
Search for "logos" on the wiki page.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
None of these verses calls Jesus "a God". Your verses prove that Father is God, which is fine, I have nothing against that.
They did not take creation away from the Father. The Father is the source of everything. But the Father created everything through His Son.
You would need to understand the Hellenistic Judaism concept of Logos, to see what they worked with:
Philo - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Search for "logos" on the wiki page.
That is the position of the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
And I do not talk to Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Your position? Mine is Trinitarianism.
But if you do not understand what the term Logos meant, you will not understand the cultural concept the apostles worked with to communicate who Jesus is - the proceeding Son from the Father, through whom everything was created - read John 1.
But if you feel you lost and do not want to talk anymore, I am fine with you giving some poor reason to bow out. Take care. But try to educate yourself about the topic, anyway.
JLB
Well-Known Member
The Son of God, became flesh.
He was made, a little lower than the angels.
What was He before He became flesh?
Here is what the scriptures teach us.
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
I am a Theologian and I understand Logos…..6th century BC Greek term and popular Gnostic term. Used in the New Testament as the Word made flesh.
And there are 3 Gods and God the Father is senior and created everything.
And I did not lose, you did not begin to win.
A no we do not need to talk.
Lambano
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Arius was a subordinationist who taught there was a point somewhere between Eternity-Past and 30 AD when the person we now know as Jesus Christ did not exist, at least not as a distinct entity. Not co-eternal, not co-equal. Can't say anything about consubstantial until you postulate ontological existence. Arius even wrote hymns to reinforce his theology. (Nothing like a good song to help people remember your theology, right @St. SteVen?) Co-eternality is what the big kerfluffle in Nicaea with St. Nicolas of Myra allegedly slapping Arius was all about.
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Basic JW doctrine: 'The Bible doesn't mean what it says. It means what we say'! 'We are Bible Language experts.'
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Keep in mind that God is a position of a divine being. Christianity has 3 Gods God the Father Yahweh and God the Son Yeshua and God the Holy Spirit. God the Father is the Creator God and senior to Yeshua and the Holy Spirit but equal in unity of purpose.
The Apostles recognized Yahweh as unique calling Him God and calling Yeshua Lord.
JLB
Well-Known Member
Here is what the scriptures teach us.
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16
A very poor theologian, obviously. And if you have such gaps in your knowledge that you misidentify the Hellenistic Judaism and Philo with Jehovah Witnesses, I doubt you can understand the harder parts of the New Testament.
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You can't be serious!
1 Timothy 2:5
5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
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