Is your faith defined by what you DON'T believe? - The anti-doctrinal stance

[Jay Ross]

Lambano, I know this is hard to read, and it was a pain to type. But what I did type twice yesterday did not send as pasted, after I hit POST. Below is the URL for the website I used to parse Eph 2:8.

A helpful hint/suggestion, snip an image of what you want to show in your document and paste that into your post.

Example: -



You can edit your snipped image before posting using a standard graphics package to highlight key points that you may wish to make.

I hope that this provides you with a helpful solution.

 

[Hillsage]

A helpful hint/suggestion, snip an image of what you want to show in your document and paste that into your post.

Example: -

View attachment 72509

You can edit your snipped image before posting using a standard graphics package to highlight key points that you may wish to make.

I hope that this provides you with a helpful solution.

Thanks Jay, for your kind suggestion. I tried that before on my normal online Greek Interlinear URL (Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software). It looks 'similar' to your above. But when I pasted my URL here, it comes out like this below. Which is a mess to read IMO. And I'm not really sure what a 'standard graphics package' even is.

2 th
tE
G3588
t_ Dat Sg f
to-THE
gar
gar
G1063
Conj
for
cariti
chariti
G5485
n_ Dat Sg f
grace
este
este
G2075
vi Pres vxx 2 Pl
YE-ARE
seswsmenoi
sesOsmenoi
G4982
vp Perf Pas Nom Pl m
ones-HAVING-been-SAVED
saved
dia
dia
G1223
Prep
THRU
through
ths
tEs
G3588
t_ Gen Sg f
THE
pistews
pisteOs
G4102
n_ Gen Sg f
BELIEF
faith
kai
kai
G2532
Conj
AND
For by grace are ye saved
through faith; and that not of
yourselves: [it is] the gift of

 

[Jay Ross]

I'm not really sure what a 'standard graphics package' even is.

Photo shop. Power point etc. You may need to learn what works best for you.

I used your Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software and snipped Ep 2:8 and have pasted it below.



Your problem maybe with the incompatible formats used in both online programs.

The snip and paste solution is what I use to clearly show the interlinear scriptures like above.

 

[Hillsage]

This one always comes up in the Calvinism/Arminian debates, and it's one of my pet peeves. Please look at the Greek for Ephesians 2:8. "That" (touto) is neuter. "Faith" (pistis) is a feminine noun. Therefore, by the rules of Greek grammar, "that" cannot refer to "faith". The gift is not "faith", the gift is the compound (which would get the neuter demonstrative pronoun) "salvation by grace through faith".

I don't know your Greek expertise, but I did find this rather lengthly debate tonight, and offer it as a reason to maybe reconsider your opinion on Eph 2:8. The website was definitely beyond any degree where I would feel comfortable arguing. The quote below was from post #14

Eph. 2:8 - which is the gift God?

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God (ESV) To what are this and it referring? I've always been taught that they referred to grace, but I heard recently that it (also or instead, I can't quite remember) referred to faith.

puritanboard.com

Daniel Wallace, in Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics (pp. 334-335), says the following about Ephesians 2:8:

This is the most debated text in terms of the antecedent of the demonstrative pronoun, touto [this]. The standard interpretations include: (1) "grace" as antecedent, (2) "faith" as antecedent; (3) the concept of a grace-by-faith salvation as antecedent, and (4) kai touto [and this] having an adverbial force with no antecedent ("and especially").

The first and second options suffer from the fact that touto is neuter while chariti [grace] and pistews [faith] are feminine. ... More plausible is the third view, viz., that touto refers to the concept of a grace-by-faith salvation. As we have seen, touto regularly takes a conceptual antecedent. Whether faith is seen as a gift here or anywhere else in the NT is not addressed by this.

A fourth view is that kai touto is adverbial, though this view has surprisingly made little impact on the exegetical literature. If adverbial, kai touto is intensive, meaning "and at that, and especially," without having any antecedent. It focuses on the verb rather than any noun [Wallace then references 3 John 5 as an example of this usage]. ... The issues here are complex and cannot be solved by grammar alone. Nevertheless, syntactical considerations do tend toward one of the the latter two views.

@Jay Ross @St. SteVen

 

[St. SteVen]

Daniel Wallace, in Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics (pp. 334-335), says the following about Ephesians 2:8:
This is the most debated text in terms of the antecedent of the demonstrative pronoun, touto [this]. The standard interpretations include: (1) "grace" as antecedent, (2) "faith" as antecedent; (3) the concept of a grace-by-faith salvation as antecedent, and (4) kai touto [and this] having an adverbial force with no antecedent ("and especially").

The first and second options suffer from the fact that touto is neuter while chariti [grace] and pistews [faith] are feminine. ... More plausible is the third view, viz., that touto refers to the concept of a grace-by-faith salvation. As we have seen, touto regularly takes a conceptual antecedent. Whether faith is seen as a gift here or anywhere else in the NT is not addressed by this.

A fourth view is that kai touto is adverbial, though this view has surprisingly made little impact on the exegetical literature. If adverbial, kai touto is intensive, meaning "and at that, and especially," without having any antecedent. It focuses on the verb rather than any noun [Wallace then references 3 John 5 as an example of this usage]. ... The issues here are complex and cannot be solved by grammar alone. Nevertheless, syntactical considerations do tend toward one of the the latter two views.

Good to read Daniel Wallace on this. But doesn't the second half of the verse (and verse 9) inform the first half?
In the English "through faith" and "not by works" operate as parenthetical insertions. If removed we get:

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, _______________—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 ______________, so that no one can boast.

Therefore, salvation is the gift of God (for which) no one can boast.

Ephesians 2:8-9 NIV
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—
and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

[St. SteVen]

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, _______________—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 ______________, so that no one can boast.

Therefore, salvation is the gift of God (for which) no one can boast.

Ephesians 2:8-9 NIV
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—
and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Also reminds me of this:

Romans 4:1-3 NIV
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter?
2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.
3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

 

[Lambano]

I don't know your Greek expertise, but I did find this rather lengthly debate tonight, and offer it as a reason to maybe reconsider your opinion on Eph 2:8. The website was definitely beyond any degree where I would feel comfortable arguing. The quote below was from post #14

This is the most debated text in terms of the antecedent of the demonstrative pronoun, touto [this]. The standard interpretations include: (1) "grace" as antecedent, (2) "faith" as antecedent; (3) the concept of a grace-by-faith salvation as antecedent, and (4) kai touto [and this] having an adverbial force with no antecedent ("and especially").

The first and second options suffer from the fact that touto is neuter while chariti [grace] and pistews [faith] are feminine. ... More plausible is the third view, viz., that touto refers to the concept of a grace-by-faith salvation. As we have seen, touto regularly takes a conceptual antecedent. Whether faith is seen as a gift here or anywhere else in the NT is not addressed by this.

A fourth view is that kai touto is adverbial, though this view has surprisingly made little impact on the exegetical literature. If adverbial, kai touto is intensive, meaning "and at that, and especially," without having any antecedent. It focuses on the verb rather than any noun [Wallace then references 3 John 5 as an example of this usage]. ... The issues here are complex and cannot be solved by grammar alone. Nevertheless, syntactical considerations do tend toward one of the the latter two views.

The "conceptual antecedent" position taken by my Greek textbooks corresponds with Dr. Wallace's "view 3". The adverbial interpretation is interesting. It gives the following reading:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—especially not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not from works, lest any man should boast.

This reading leads to the same interpretation as the "conceptual antecedent" reading. Salvation through faith not works is the gift.

 

[St. SteVen]

This reading leads to the same interpretation as the "conceptual antecedent" reading. Salvation through faith not works is the gift.

What became of grace? (through faith)

 

[Hillsage]

Good to read Daniel Wallace on this. But doesn't the second half of the verse (and verse 9) inform the first half?
In the English "through faith" and "not by works" operate as parenthetical insertions. If removed we get:

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, _______________—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 ______________, so that no one can boast.

Therefore, salvation is the gift of God (for which) no one can boast.

Ephesians 2:8-9 NIV
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—
and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

I really can't answer this. I just know that when I was trying to answer Lambano's post #61, according to the the "gift" of God , it never lined up with the fundamental rule of Greek grammar which I already knew, but was having difficulty applying it to these 2 verses. I actually went online looking for something besides the online Greek Interlinear I've used for a few years now. That's when things got really convoluted as to a literal parsing of the Greek into literal English. ( Ephesians 2:8 - Original Greek Text ). I have spent a lot of time, but am still confused, especially after going to this last URL where they are definitely Greek scholars arguing about this familiar verse from so many angles it makes my head spin. IOW I am shocked at how much deeper these 2 familiar verses appear to be.

 

[Hillsage]

Also reminds me of this:

Romans 4:1-3 NIV
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter?
2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.
3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Your verses leave several closed doors available for me.
"Faith OF Jesus" vs "faith IN Jesus". "Justification, Sanctification, Glorification. "imputed, declared, CREDITED righteousness vs. BEING (walking) in 'imparted' righteousness.

And all of these above terms pertain to the progressive salvation of a triune human from spirit to soul to body.
This could be another whole discussion IMO.

 

[Hillsage]

The "conceptual antecedent" position taken by my Greek textbooks corresponds with Dr. Wallace's "view 3". The adverbial interpretation is interesting. It gives the following reading:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—especially not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not from works, lest any man should boast.

This reading leads to the same interpretation as the "conceptual antecedent" reading. Salvation through faith not works is the gift.

So does your reading of "FAITH especially NOT from YOURSELVES,....but being..."the gift FROM God"...mean you NOW think the "the gift of God" isn't grace in this verse? I'm still not sure if you mean you have changed your mind, or you haven't.

I'm especially interested because, just 3 verses before we find;

EPH 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

And I just happen to believe that both 'grace alone' and 'faith alone' both have a 'particular or individual' application dependent upon context. But honestly don't know how competent I am to even expound, let alone defend, what I'm thinking.

 

[Lambano]

What became of grace? (through faith)

So does your reading of "FAITH especially NOT from YOURSELVES,....but being..."the gift FROM God"...mean you NOW think the "the gift of God" isn't grace in this verse? I'm still not sure if you mean you have changed your mind, or you haven't.

I'm especially interested because, just 3 verses before we find;

EPH 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Typo. Very bad typo. The kind of typo that completely obscures what you were trying to say. It should read "'being saved by grace through faith' is still the gift". If I understand what Dr. Wallace is saying, the "especially it is not from yourself; it is a gift" clause intensifies the gracious nature of what ever it was by grace in the preceding clause.

 

[ProDeo]

Sister @Ritajanice had a similar testimony. However, if you accept that humans are not capable of faith unless God gives it to them,

I am in agreement with @Lizbeth, I don't think she said (or meant) a life giving experience is the golden rule. There are some stubborn, stupid, hard cookies to crack who need it, else they would die in their sins. They have received super grace, like Paul.

 

[Lambano]

I am in agreement with @Lizbeth, I don't think she said (or meant) a life giving experience is the golden rule. There are some stubborn, stupid, hard cookies to crack who need it, else they would die in their sins. They have received super grace, like Paul.

If I read sister Lizbeth correctly, she did take that "golden rule" position originally, but backed-off to an Arminian "election by foreknowledge" position. I'll let her speak for herself.

I think you've described what John Wesley called God's universal but resistible "prevenient grace", which was Wesley's answer to the Calvinist combination of total depravity plus irresistible grace, the T and I of TULIP. Is her experience a universal "golden rule", that God MUST act with I to overcome T in a person's heart for faith to occur? If not all come to faith, the logic is inescapable: You must also accept U, L, and P and scissor 1 John 2:1-2, 1 Timothy 2:4, and 2 Peter 3:9 out of your Bible, because they're a lie. God does not desire all to come to repentance and be saved, and Christ didn't die for the sins of the whole world.

Like I said, that last sentence is near the top of my list of things I DON'T believe. Besides, if Man is not capable of having faith, how does he trust the persons he does trust and believe the things he does believe?

 

[GodsGrace]

hanks Jay, for your kind suggestion. I tried that before on my normal online Greek Interlinear URL (Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software). It looks 'similar' to your above. But when I pasted my URL here, it comes out like this below. Which is a mess to read IMO. And I'm not really sure what a 'standard graphics package' even is.

2 th
tE
G3588
t_ Dat Sg f
to-THE
gar
gar
G1063
Conj
for
cariti
chariti
G5485
n_ Dat Sg f
grace
este
este
G2075
vi Pres vxx 2 Pl
YE-ARE
seswsmenoi
sesOsmenoi
G4982
vp Perf Pas Nom Pl m
ones-HAVING-been-SAVED
saved
dia
dia
G1223
Prep
THRU
through
ths
tEs
G3588
t_ Gen Sg f
THE
pistews
pisteOs
G4102
n_ Gen Sg f
BELIEF
faith
kai
kai
G2532
Conj
AND
For by grace are ye saved
through faith; and that not of
yourselves: [it is] the gift of

Hillsage,,,,trying to figure this out myself ! If I do, I'll let you know.

​ ​ ​ ​ 1223 [e] dia διὰ through Prep​ 4102 [e] pisteōs πίστεως , faith N-GFS​ 2532 [e] kai καὶ and Conj​ 3778 [e] touto τοῦτο this DPro-NNS​ 3756 [e] ouk οὐκ not Adv​ 1537 [e] ex ἐξ of Prep​ ​

 

[GodsGrace]

This one always comes up in the Calvinism/Arminian debates, and it's one of my pet peeves. Please look at the Greek for Ephesians 2:8. "That" (touto) is neuter. "Faith" (pistis) is a feminine noun. Therefore, by the rules of Greek grammar, "that" cannot refer to "faith". The gift is not "faith", the gift is the compound (which would get the neuter demonstrative pronoun) "salvation by grace through faith".

Lambano,
Let's see if we agree:

The gift is all 3: grace, faith, salvation.

This comes up in Calvinism because they say that faith is a gift.
Correct.

But God only gifts it to those with faith that WANT salvation - as shown by a myriad of verses/scripture.

Some fear referring to faith as a gift because it would SEEM that it is God gifting it to someone whether or not they want it: Irrisistible grace.

PS
I probably missed many of your posts here.

 

[St. SteVen]

Like I said, that last sentence is near the top of my list of things I DON'T believe. Besides, if Man is not capable of having faith, how does he trust the persons he does trust and believe the things he does believe?

It seems that we learn these while growing up.
As an infant we are completely dependent, even though we don't understand trust yet.
When the training wheels come off the bike, we learn a new level of trust.
Same when we are first allowed to drive a car on our own.
We trust that if we get into an accident, M&D's auto insurance will take care of it.

 

[Lambano]

This comes up in Calvinism because they say that faith is a gift.
Correct.

But God only gifts it to those with faith that WANT salvation - as shown by a myriad of verses/scripture.

If the presented alternative is being burned forever and ever and ever, who WOULDN'T want to be saved from that? There's nothing super-spiritual about it. Self-preservation and pain avoidance are about as carnal as you can get. I have some experience with that, and it's one of the reasons I secretly identify with brother (?) Jack.

By Dr. Wallace's "rule 3", the neuter form of "touto" would be applied to a complex antecedent, in this case "by grace you have been saved, through faith". The gift is "being saved through faith". Faith itself may or may not be a gift from God; the verse doesn't explicitly say, though a Calvinist would say it logically follows that it is.

 

[Lambano]

Hillsage,,,,trying to figure this out myself !
If I do, I'll let you know.

I would just use the Windows Snipping Tool (just type "snip" in the Windows search box) and paste the picture directly into the reply using the "ctrl-V" key.

 

[St. SteVen]

Self-preservation and pain avoidance are about as carnal as you can get.

Great point.
Does God accept this response to the extortion threat from the church as a valid relationship with Him?
Or just carnal pain avoidance and self-preservation? (Away... I never knew you.)