Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the Lord? Because of this, wrath has gone out against you from the Lord.

[HealthyShape]

Protestants often point out that Catholic and Orthodox traditions include practices absent in the early Church, and that’s true. But let’s be clear: Protestants rely on developments that didn’t exist in the first century either, just as much as anyone else.

Not as much. Catholics and Orthodox are obviously much more divergent from the first/simple Christianity.

The Bible canon wasn’t finalized until the late 4th century. The Council of Rome in 382 AD, under Pope Damasus I, drafted a list including the deuterocanonical books and the 27 New Testament books. The Councils of Hippo (393 AD) and Carthage (397 AD) confirmed this Catholic canon of 46 Old Testament and 27 New Testament books. Protestants accept the 27-book New Testament from these Catholic councils but reject the deuterocanonical books, selectively using the work of the very Church they critique.

Yes. Modern protestants use the same NT canon and have a different OT canon. However, not always. First reformers quoted the DT books as Scripture.

Then there are the creeds. The Nicene Creed (325 AD, refined in 381 AD) and the Apostles’ Creed (formalized in the 4th–5th centuries) didn’t exist in the first three centuries. Yet, many Protestants—Lutherans, Anglicans, and others—recite them in worship or use them as doctrinal foundations. These are products of later Church councils, not the apostolic era.

Yes. The first creeds are accepted in the protestant churches. However, I have not witnessed reciting the Nicene Creed, only the Apostolic Creed.

Criticizing Catholics and Orthodox for post-early Church additions while standing on the same late foundations—canon and creeds—is inconsistent. It’s time to acknowledge that Protestantism, too, rests on traditions built long after the first century.

The point of the criticism is not that it is later, but that it is over bloated and many times foreign or in enmity to the New Testament teachings. Like the whole Mariology or priesthood, indulgences, emphasis on external rituals etc.

 

[Chrysostomos]

Not as much. Catholics and Orthodox are obviously much more divergent from the first/simple Christianity.


Yes. Modern protestants use the same NT canon and have a different OT canon. However, not always. First reformers quoted the DT books as Scripture.


Yes. The first creeds are accepted in the protestant churches. However, I have not witnessed reciting the Nicene Creed, only the Apostolic Creed.


The point of the criticism is not that it is later, but that it is over bloated and many times foreign or in enmity to the New Testament teachings. Like the whole Mariology or priesthood, indulgences, emphasis on external rituals etc.

You call Catholic and Orthodox practices like Mariology, priesthood, and rituals “over bloated” and “foreign” to the “simple” Christianity of the first century. But what’s this “simple” Christianity you keep waving around? The New Testament doesn’t define a minimalist rulebook—Jesus Himself instituted sacraments like the Eucharist (Luke 22:19–20) and baptism (Matthew 28:19), and the apostles established ordination and apostolic succession (Acts 6:6, 1 Timothy 4:14). These aren’t “bloated” add-ons; they’re foundational practices from Christ and His apostles.

You act like anything after the 1st century is bad just because it wasn’t there in that form. But why? Your logic equates “later” with “wrong,” yet Protestantism is packed with post-1st-century inventions.“Simple” Christianity is a myth—every tradition grew practices over time.

You reject Catholic/Orthodox ordained priesthood, but Protestants have their own “clerical” hierarchy. Pastors, elders, and deacons (ordained in many denominations like Presbyterians or Methodists) mirror the early Church’s post-3rd-century structure (Ignatius of Antioch, ~110 AD, emphasized bishops). Your “ministers” lead, preach, and administer “ordinances” (baptism, communion)—that’s a priesthood by another name, just without the title.

You call Catholic/Orthodox sacraments bloated, but Jesus Himself instituted baptism and the Lord’s Supper (Matthew 28:19, Luke 22:19–20), which Protestants practice as “ordinances.” Beyond that, your Sunday services are ritualistic: structured worship, hymn-singing (post-3rd-century hymnals like Watts’ or Wesley’s), altar calls, and even “revival” meetings with formulaic patterns (e.g., 19th-century Great Awakenings). These are rituals, codified centuries after the apostles.

You claim these Catholic/Orthodox practices are “bad” because they’re later, but your own traditions—hero-worship of Reformers, pastoral hierarchies, and ritualized services—are just as post-1st-century. What’s the difference? You accept your additions as “biblical” while condemning others as “foreign.” That’s not logic; it’s double standards.

 

[Chrysostomos]

Friend
what she wrote about what she recieved of the LORD , IS Correct .
I myself was shown these things .

Think I didn't notice you and @Lizbeth are obsessed with the same “spirit”?
I’m just saying, don’t paraphrase her words for me.
I can read what she writes myself.

 

[HealthyShape]

You call Catholic and Orthodox practices like Mariology, priesthood, and rituals “over bloated” and “foreign” to the “simple” Christianity of the first century. But what’s this “simple” Christianity you keep waving around?

Too many questions, so I will take only the first one.

Christian faith in its first simplicity is a living fellowship with Christ formed by Scripture, plain worship, and moral holiness. The first Christians gathered to hear the apostles’ teaching, to break bread, to pray, and to care for one another (Acts 2:42–47).

When I call later accretions “over-bloated” or “foreign,” I mean practices that obscure the simple gospel with elaborate ceremonies, secretive rites, or an exalted clerical caste that removes spiritual learning from the common people. The caste of priests as such is in the direct opposition to the New Testament.

 

[marks]

You are preaching the doctrine of Leo Tolstoy, not the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Not so.

This is what Jesus taught, I'm surprised you would not know this.

Matthew 5:43-48 KJV
43) Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45) That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46) For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47) And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Much love!

 

[Chrysostomos]

Too many questions, so I will take only the first one.

Christian faith in its first simplicity is a living fellowship with Christ formed by Scripture, plain worship, and moral holiness. The first Christians gathered to hear the apostles’ teaching, to break bread, to pray, and to care for one another (Acts 2:42–47).

When I call later accretions “over-bloated” or “foreign,” I mean practices that obscure the simple gospel with elaborate ceremonies, secretive rites, or an exalted clerical caste that removes spiritual learning from the common people. The caste of priests as such is in the direct opposition to the New Testament.

I don’t believe the 1st-century church was anything like you describe. You grossly idealize it. The Book of Acts and the Epistles show a different reality—far from your rose-tinted fantasy.

Still, I see no fundamental difference between Protestant and Catholic/Orthodox parish structures.

Sure, there are exceptions—totalitarian sects with tight control—but I’m talking about regular congregations here.

 

[Chrysostomos]

Not so.

This is what Jesus taught, I'm surprised you would not know this.

Matthew 5:43-48 KJV
43) Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45) That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46) For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47) And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Much love!

I explained this clearly—see posts #184 and #185–187.

 

[marks]

I explained this clearly—see posts #184 and #185–187.

Jesus explained this very simply in the passage I've posted. This is not complicated.

Much love!

 

[Marvelloustime]

and as peter once wrote
They twist the scips unto their OWN destruction .
For a man will always cling to what man loveth
and he will twist and mold and remold whatever is in the way of HIS true hearts desire
into what FITS WITH his own hearts desire .
For in the heart of man lies wickedness and evil thoughts
But the sheep will not heed them . FOR GOD has changed the heart of the sheep
and given us the desires that please HIM . TWISTING HIS WORDS to fit a lie and serve the flesh does NOT PLEASE HIM .
FAITH IN HIM , TRUST IN HIM , HIS WORDS and obediance unto HIM , DOES PLEASE HIM .
so i leave us with this reminder.
Men will do as men will do and love as men do love
BUT SHEEP will do as JESUS bids them DO and LOVE THE WORDS OF TRUTH .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

Remember when i said that those who accuse us are the ones actually guilty of the very thing they accuse us .
For example .
I seem to notice non stop his calling you a hyprocrite . Just cause you made and even dared to make mention
of the unholy harlot .
HOWEVER , HE non stop has been coming on
hollering all h e had to about the jews . AINT that something sister .
You , me and others , WE SHOULD THANK GOD daily for pulling us out of false systems of men .
I will not , and may i never , sit under such a place as that harlot or her prostestant daughters
who do her work and her bidding . WE expose places like that. WE DO so for the sakes of all trapped in them
We do as we do for the sake of the o thers . Deadly dangerous places will not help but rather lead to their destuction .

@amigo de christo

 

[Chrysostomos]

Jesus explained this very simply in the passage I've posted. This is not complicated.

Much love!

So, you’re saying Jesus taught us to love:
- criminals: pedophiles, murderers, rapists, thieves, swindlers…
- military enemies
- Satanists: sorcerers, witches, devil-worshippers

Is that your take?

 

[ProDeo]

So, you’re saying Jesus taught us to love:
- criminals: pedophiles, murderers, rapists, thieves, swindlers…
- military enemies
- Satanists: sorcerers, witches, devil-worshippers

Is that your take?

Matt 10:16 “Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.

Doesn't contradict Matt 5.

 

[Chrysostomos]

Matt 10:16 “Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.

Doesn't contradict Matt 5.

So, should you help the wicked and love those who hate the Lord?

 

[marks]

So, you’re saying Jesus taught us to love:
- criminals: pedophiles, murderers, rapists, thieves, swindlers…
- military enemies
- Satanists: sorcerers, witches, devil-worshippers

Is that your take?

Like I said, it's not complicated. Jesus taught us plainly to love our enemies just like God loves His enemies. While the rapists and murders and you and I were still God's enemies, Jesus, in the penultimate act of love, died for us all, giving us example.

Matthew 5:44-48 KJV
44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45) That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46) For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47) And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Romans 5:7-10 KJV
7) For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Loving someone does not mean helping them commit evil deeds, if that is what you are thinking. But because someone does evil . . . are you thinking you've never done evil? Should God neither love nor help you?

Much love!

 

[ProDeo]

So, should you help the wicked and love those who hate the Lord?

Did I say that? -> No.

Did I imply that? -> No.

Rom 12:20 To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.”
Rom 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Forgive your enemies but never forget their names.
-- John F. Kennedy

 

[Chrysostomos]

Like I said, it's not complicated. Jesus taught us plainly to love our enemies just like God loves His enemies. While the rapists and murders and you and I were still God's enemies, Jesus, in the penultimate act of love, died for us all, giving us example.

Matthew 5:44-48 KJV
44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45) That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46) For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47) And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Romans 5:7-10 KJV
7) For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Loving someone does not mean helping them commit evil deeds, if that is what you are thinking. But because someone does evil . . . are you thinking you've never done evil? Should God neither love nor help you?

Much love!

So your answer is—Yes! You claim Jesus taught us to love:
- criminals: pedophiles, murderers, rapists, thieves, swindlers…
- military enemies
- Satanists: sorcerers, witches, devil-worshippers

 

[marks]

So your answer is—Yes! You claim Jesus taught us to love:
- criminals: pedophiles, murderers, rapists, thieves, swindlers…
- military enemies
- Satanists: sorcerers, witches, devil-worshippers

Matthew 5:43-48 KJV
43) Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45) That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46) For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47) And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

- Jesus

Self-examination could be in order.

 

[Chrysostomos]

Did I say that? -> No.

Did I imply that? -> No.

Rom 12:20 To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.”
Rom 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Forgive your enemies but never forget their names.
-- John F. Kennedy

"Do Not Murder vs. You Must Kill: Understanding 'Kill' and 'Murder' in Biblical Commands"

You Shall Not Murder. (Exod. 20:13) This prohibition does not apply to every form of killing. This is already evident from the Mosaic Law itself. For the violation of about 20 laws, the death penalty is prescribed. Additionally, one can recall the wars that Israel waged with the blessing of...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Chrysostomos]

Matthew 5:43-48 KJV
43) Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45) That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46) For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47) And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

- Jesus

Self-examination could be in order.

Jesus does not teach to love:
- criminals: pedophiles, murderers, rapists, thieves, swindlers…
- military enemies
- Satanists: sorcerers, witches, devil-worshippers

I explained this clearly—see posts #184 and #185–187.

 

[marks]

Jesus does not teach to love:
- criminals: pedophiles, murderers, rapists, thieves, swindlers…
- military enemies
- Satanists: sorcerers, witches, devil-worshippers

I explained this clearly—see posts #184 and #185–187.

Jesus did not qualify His statements as you are.

He gave the teaching, and gave an example. But you do not believe Him. Is it because you think of yourself as better than others? Less sinful?

I feel rather confident that you were God's enemy at one time, and God showed His love for you.

Matthew 5:43-48 KJV
43) Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45) That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46) For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47) And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Romans 5:6-8 KJV
6) For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7) For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Much love!