How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?

[Grailhunter]

I know there are no J's in the Greek.
In different languages the name of Jesus begins with a different letter.

What does this have to do with there being only ONE supreme being?
You're creating 3 gods G.
There can only be one God.

I'm not getting into a debate about whether or not Jesus is God.

The creeds were in response to heretical teachings that were circulating.
But Jesus was declared to be uncreated from the very beginning.


View attachment 73178

For instance, the Apostles Creed declared Jesus to be born of the Holy Spirit,,,making Him God.
But it doesn't teach that He always existed...so another creed.

You know all this....each one clarified something that was being incorrectly taught by some.

I like the Italian...
Jesus was GENERATED
NOT created.

Generated means He came out from something....
This is how I understand the Trinity.....
Jesus is the WORD of God....the mind and intellect of God....
At some point in time, He became human and took on the form of a man...
but He had always existed with God Father...He was always a part of Him.

Hebrews 1:3
3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.

If Jesus is the exact representation of God's nature...
it means He has the same nature...
it means He is God....
God has always existed and is not created.

The JW believe Jesus is the Son of God...but was created.
We do not consider them to be Christian.

Yeshua was not created....He was born.

 

[Grailhunter]

I agree with you until you get to 2 Gods.

3 Gods
No harm done.
Whether you believe me or not there is a God named Yahweh and a God named Yeshua and a unnamed God called the Holy Spirit. How you do the math on that does not bother me.

 

[Grailhunter]

In different languages the name of Jesus begins with a different letter.

Different languages do not matter.....In this case only Hebrew. Christ was Jewish and his mother gave Him a Jewish name....Yeshua....and we can read it and pronounce His name.....no need to use a different language. Same goes for God the Father.....Yahweh.

 

[The Learner]

START at

• #701

 

[Brakelite]

Even here we see a slight mistake!
You make it sound as if the 2nd person of the Trinity was created at some point.
Jesus always existed and was not created.

You are correct, Jesus was not created. He was begotten. And because Jesus created all things, (obviously He didn't create Himself) therefore He was begotten before creation... Before time. Begotten's predominant meaning in Scripture is not unique as some would have it, but born. Jesus was unique, absolutely, but today many reduce His divinity and deity by removing the sense of birth and being brought forth of the Father. Jesus is a real literal Son, brought forth at some time in eternity (if there's such an expression), before time began.
The relationship between time and eternity is never explained in Scripture. Are we to believe that in eternity there is no past present, or future? Did not God plan and prepare with His Son the creation of the heavens and the earth and all that is in them? Planning means preparation for tomorrow. Future. That God implemented a form of measuring time in creation, doesn't negate time already present.

 

[Brakelite]

Follow the crumbs Brakelite

Let's see if you can perceive why!

Exodus 21:5–6
Deuteronomy 15:16–17
Psalm 40:6–8
Hebrews 10:5–7
Hebrews 5:7–9

Start with the Law of the Bond Servant and allow the Word to guide you into Truth Brakelite. I'll be interested to see if you see it.

Before going through your texts. I will offer one myself which completely supports the concept of preexistence.
“6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: ”
Philippians 2:6-9 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

 

[Hiddenthings]

Before going through your texts. I will offer one myself which completely supports the concept of preexistence.
“6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: ”
Philippians 2:6-9 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

Brakelite - if you cannot provide a understanding from the Servant Prophecies in Isaiah you cannot interpret that section - impossible.

Go through the text's and I hope you can return with why Christ could not have pre-existed - impossible.

 

[RLT63]

Simple facts of perspective

No doubt that Yahweh more than once makes it clear in the Old Testament that He was the only God and there was no one else like Him....

Hell and the devil are not identified in the Old Testament. The Jews did not believe in the devil or Hell back then or today.

Yahweh's primary enemy in the Old Testament were Pagans....Yahweh declared war on them....the kill all that breaths command.

The Jews are looking for a human warlord King that would take down their oppressors and put them in power and a glistening Temple would be built and the Mosaic Law would be obeyed by the world and sacrifices would continue forever

Something changes between the testaments…..

Satan becomes Yahweh’s Primary enemy and a threat to mankind.

Neither Yahweh or Yeshua declared war on the Pagans. In stead it is Yahweh’s plan to save them for Heaven. So He impregnates Miriam to produce a God Messiah. Because it is Satan that is the threat now a human Messiah would not get the Job done.

Because Yeshua is a God and is forgiving and peace loving and generally does not match the prophecies…..the Jews reject Him then and today.

The third God called the Holy Spirit is introduced in the New Testament. The name of this God is not revealed. Speculations ensue why the name of this important God is not revealed. From here on this God has a very close relationship with Mankind.

The Godhead is formed…Yahweh and Yeshua and the Holy Spirit. Three Gods on three thrones. There is a unity in perfection because perfect minds are going to think a like. But there are 3 distinct Gods with their own minds and personalities.

The three Gods in one belief is false.

“Hell and the devil are not identified in the Old Testament. The Jews did not believe in the devil or Hell back then or today.”
Have you ever read the book of Job.?

Job 1:6 - Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 2:1 - Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Not in Greek.

The LXX and Justin Martyr are the only other witnesses to word betulah being originally used.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Are You talking about Isaiah 7:14?
You know that verse sits in a whole storyline about a testing the faith of king and the virgin birth is Isaiah's wife. That is why it is good to know the language and time period culture. Back then a woman that had not had a baby yet was considered a virgin.

Isaiah checked his wife for virginity, and pregnancy. He was wondering if it was her. But the Masoretic Text says Almay, supporting Bar Kochba as the final messiah.

 

[Grailhunter]

“Hell and the devil are not identified in the Old Testament. The Jews did not believe in the devil or Hell back then or today.”
Have you ever read the book of Job.?

Job 1:6 - Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 2:1 - Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

The question is did you learn anything from reading Job?
The word Satan appears 18 times in the Old Testament and 12 times in Job. But nowhere is he identified as a devil.
In Job he presents himself to Yahweh and He asks Satan about the righteousness of Job and they both agree to test Job. Their conversation is not adversarial. And he is not identified as a demon or an enemy of Yahweh. So again there is a reason that the Jews do not believe in a devil.

 

[Grailhunter]

Isaiah checked his wife for virginity, and pregnancy. He was wondering if it was her. But the Masoretic Text says Almay, supporting Bar Kochba as the final messiah.

Again this is a full story and pulling a one liner out of context no way point to the Messiah. But this is all they have because there is not a full description of how Yeshua was or his ministry in the Old Testament so they resort to pulling one liners out of context and suggest it is a Messianic prophecy.

 

[RLT63]

The question is did you learn anything from reading Job?
The word Satan appears 18 times in the Old Testament and 12 times in Job. But nowhere is he identified as a devil.
In Job he presents himself to Yahweh and He asks Satan about the righteousness of Job and they both agree to test Job. Their conversation is not adversarial. And he is not identified as a demon or an enemy of Yahweh. So again there is a reason that the Jews do not believe in a devil.

Eze 28:13 - Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering,the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald,and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 - Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 - Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16 - By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence,and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God:and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 - Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings,that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 - Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee,and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 - All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

 

[Muna]

Satan trying Job here

Job 2:4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea,
all that a man hath will he give for his life.

The Lord aware of the desire of Satan to sift Simon here

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon,
behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

And Jesus tells the church the devil will cast some of them into prison to be tried there

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison,
that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

And here is Satan called Devil here

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Satan trying Job here

Job 2:4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea,
all that a man hath will he give for his life.

The Lord aware of the desire of Satan to sift Simon here

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon,
behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

And Jesus tells the church the devil will cast some of them into prison to be tried there

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison,
that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

And here is Satan called Devil here

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

And since Jesus was a sinless human….who was it that tempted him after his baptism? Who could offer Jesus “all the kingdoms of the world“ if he didn’t possess them? Who delivered those kingdoms to satan? (Luke 4:5-7)…and for what reason? One entity could give “all the kingdom of the world“ to Jesus, who did not dispute his claim.

Was Jesus tempted by himself? Did he pray to himself? Was he “sent” by himself? How can anyone answer these questions if God and his son are one and the same God?

 

[Grailhunter]

Eze 28:13 - Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering,the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald,and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 - Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 - Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16 - By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence,and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God:and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 - Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings,that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 - Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee,and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 - All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Yahweh does a lot of threating and violence in the Old Testament but I do not see the words Satan or devil in these scriptures.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Eze 28:13 - Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering,the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald,and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 - Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 - Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16 - By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence,and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God:and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 - Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings,that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 - Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee,and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 - All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

The King of Tyre walking and trading among the stones of Israel! What an extraordinary use of Garden of Eden imagery and high priestly breastplate symbolism in connection with him. The so-called “Christian Satan” (the adversary) is nowhere to be found here, RLT!

 

[Muna]

And since Jesus was a sinless human….who was it that tempted him after his baptism? Who could offer Jesus “all the kingdoms of the world“ if he didn’t possess them? Who delivered those kingdoms to satan? (Luke 4:5-7)…and for what reason? One entity could give “all the kingdom of the world“ to Jesus, who did not dispute his claim.

Was Jesus tempted by himself? Did he pray to himself? Was he “sent” by himself? How can anyone answer these questions if God and his son are one and the same God?

His Father is speaking to Him here

Matt 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Matt 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

He was anointed with the Spirit of God, after which he was led of the Spirit to be tempted here

Matt 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

The tempting comes by the tempter (the devil) appealing through the love of the world (and its things)

Mat 5:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Whereas John wrote,

1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him (to that temptation)

Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

The second part of John continues,

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Just seems to mirror what the temptation is about there, in contrast of loving the world and the things thereof

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

 

[Muna]

“Hell and the devil are not identified in the Old Testament. The Jews did not believe in the devil or Hell back then or today.”
Have you ever read the book of Job.?

Job 1:6 - Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 2:1 - Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Mark 8:33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

Shows similar there too I think

 

[HealthyShape]

Might be worth checking the OT reference in the Septuagint.

What OT reference, the YHWH title/name for the Father and not for the Son?

MonoBiblical just switched to talking about the virgin birth of Christ in the same sentence, but I am talking about the claim that YHWH is used exclusively for the Father.