How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?

[Aunty Jane]

We can't, because you do not understand Greek. Stop overestimating yourself. Remember Dunning-Kruger.

Let’s explore “cognitive dissonance” since you brought up Dunning-Kruger....

Wiki describes it as follows...
“A cognitive bias is a systematic pattern of deviation from norm or rationality in judgment.[1][2] Individuals create their own "subjective reality" from their perception of the input. An individual's construction of reality, not the objective input, may dictate their behavior in the world. Thus, cognitive biases may sometimes lead to perceptual distortion, inaccurate judgment, illogical interpretation, and irrationality.”

Now, let me ask you.....what is your “subjective reality”, and who created it? Have you ever wondered whether the “Christianity” you subscribe to is the product of a perception, created long before you or I were even born? The “construct” of the belief system which you support, is fractured into many sects and denominations, none of which really follow the teachings of Jesus and his apostles.....is that a wild accusation or is it supported scripturally?

What did Jesus warn us was coming in the future...not in the distant future, but following the death of the apostles? He warned of the devil sowing “weeds” among the “wheat” “while men were sleeping”...but not until the “harvest” would the difference between the two become clearly recognized. They would not resemble one another at all.

At the harvest, the “weeds” are gathered first and destroyed, and only then are the “wheat” gathered into the master’s storehouse.

If you know what the “weeds” in Jesus’ parable were, the picture becomes sharpened.
This is true and false “Christianity”. The “weed” in Jesus’ parable was Bearded Darnell...a noxious weed that was the blight of Middle Eastern farmers because it was identical to wheat in the early growing season....not until the plants were well established did the difference become visible, (which is why it was nicknamed “wheat’s evil twin”) but by then it was too late to pull them out, because their root systems were fully entangled so you couldn’t uproot the weeds without taking the wheat with them, so farmers who had this problem, waited till the harvest and the whole crop was taken out and the weeds were disposed of before the wheat was gathered.

Interestingly a farmer could have his entire crop ruined by an enemy who sowed this weed into his wheat field. It would reduce his yield, create more work for his labourers, and also reduce his income.

The apostles too warned of this apostasy that Christendom pretends, never happened...at least not to any of them, but what did Jesus also warn us about in the judgment to come?

“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits. “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matt 7:13-13 ESV)

Do you have any dispute about the translation here?

What picture do you get from his words? How early were the false prophets to manifest themselves? What fruitage did they produce, and what is the fruitage today? How are we to recognize true Christianity from the “weeds” that the devil planted as a counterfeit? Who are the “few” who pass the judgment?...and the “many” who don’t?
This requires knowledge of Christian history....it isn’t pretty.

Who are the ones claiming Jesus as their “Lord” but whose fruitage is rotten?.....to the point of Jesus saying “I NEVER knew you!”.....
“NEVER” means “not ever”....not in their entire existence has Jesus been among them.

Christianity is not about labels...it’s about truth.

So when condemning others for not being “Christians”, or scholars, I’d be a bit careful about your accusations as it might just be the Pharisees all over again, crying “heresy” when it was they who were the real heretics.

Step back and see the big picture....

 

[RLT63]

Well, you have no instances in the OT to start with and its well documents the lack of support for any eternal arch enemy of God.

The diversion and the lack of response regarding the true interpretation of Ezekiel 28 are telling as well.

There is much more in that chapter that could reveal the Father’s wisdom, but as with RLT, the resistance makes it difficult.

Your resistance to explaining your view and acting like you're the host on Jeopardy make it difficult

 

[Hiddenthings]

Your resistance to explaining your view and acting like you're the host on Jeopardy make it difficult

We all have much to learn, and a spirit of openness and willingness to explore truth is essential for every disciple of Christ. If you had asked me a question about that same passage of Scripture, I would have tried to ‘give an answer for the hope that is in me,’ even if you disagreed. I revealed a small taste to Brakelite and he deflected that truth as though it was worthless. Jeremiah 23:28–29

 

[RLT63]

We all have much to learn, and a spirit of openness and willingness to explore truth is essential for every disciple of Christ. If you had asked me a question about that same passage of Scripture, I would have tried to ‘give an answer for the hope that is in me,’ even if you disagreed. I revealed a small taste to Brakelite and he deflected that truth as though it was worthless. Jeremiah 23:28–29

So it's only you who has the "truth" ?

 

[Hiddenthings]

So it's only you who has the "truth" ?

No, I know many who truly understand Ezekiel 28. In fact, last year at an Anglican university, this chapter was analyzed as part of a thesis, and the scholars arrived at the same interpretation of the passage, even though they still held a belief in a fallen angel from the New Testament. The intellectual honesty shown by these students was unlike anything I’ve seen in online forums

Let me give you an example:

The NET Bible Scholars wrote this:

Ezek 28:14 tn Heb “you (were) an anointed cherub that covers and I placed you.” In the Hebrew text the ruler of Tyre is equated with a cherub, and the verb “I placed you” is taken with what follows (“on the holy mountain of God”).

While they struggle to interpret it's meaning, yet they still recognized that the lament is directed at the King of Tyre and understood the context correctly.

Those in this forum, however, cannot even get to first base.

 

[Muna]

We all have much to learn, and a spirit of openness and willingness to explore truth is essential for every disciple of Christ. If you had asked me a question about that same passage of Scripture, I would have tried to ‘give an answer for the hope that is in me,’ even if you disagreed. I revealed a small taste to Brakelite and he deflected that truth as though it was worthless. Jeremiah 23:28–29

You will laugh at the scripture when its posted. An example of this is when someone had posted 1 Peter 5:8

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour

Your response to Peters own words was

This makes me laugh that Christians think there is a lion going around devouring people (knee slapper!).

While Paul speaks in the same manner as Peter

2 Tim 4:7 Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.

So as you point the finger at another as deflecting truth as though it were worthless, you do the same thing.

 

[RLT63]

No, I know many who truly understand Ezekiel 28. In fact, last year at an Anglican university, this chapter was analyzed as part of a thesis, and the scholars arrived at the same interpretation of the passage, even though they still held a belief in a fallen angel from the New Testament. The intellectual honesty shown by these students was unlike anything I’ve seen in online forums

Let me give you an example:

The NET Bible Scholars wrote this:

Ezek 28:14 tn Heb “you (were) an anointed cherub that covers and I placed you.” In the Hebrew text the ruler of Tyre is equated with a cherub, and the verb “I placed you” is taken with what follows (“on the holy mountain of God”).

While they struggle to interpret it's meaning, yet they still recognized that the lament is directed at the King of Tyre and understood the context correctly.

Those in this forum, however, cannot even get to first base.

Did you ever think that they just disagree with you and there's a possibility that you could be the one that's wrong?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Did you ever think that they just disagree with you and there's a possibility that you could be the one that's wrong?

No, because the correct methodology is to interpret the symbol strictly within the context of Scripture.

For example, if I asked why God uses Eden, the Cherub, and the stones of the Breastplate as symbols, you would examine the Torah to understand their meaning and then discern how God employed them to teach Israel. What you would not do is impose a non-biblical story onto the text.

If I asked you to envision the imagery of the stones as the High Priest entered the Holy of Holies once a year, your mind could picture them radiating bright lights, like fire.

I don’t need you to agree, as I already know you can envision it; any resistance is simply an attempt to hold on to your own individuality.

I get it - but I'm concerned about your individuality RLT - only that the truth concerning that text is known by you. What you do with it is up to you! Sow the seed and God gives the increase.

 

[Brakelite]

Who said it had any “power or integrity” to begin with?

History. The Protestant Reformation using the KJ Bible created major panic within the RCC that forced them into counter Reformation mode to destroy the KJV that identified the CC as the Antichrist.

trying to decipher the meaning of a dead language.

Strange. I have no trouble with it. What's your problem... Clearly it isn't intellectual, so...

 

[Brakelite]

No, I know many who truly understand Ezekiel 28. In fact, last year at an Anglican university, this chapter was analyzed as part of a thesis, and the scholars arrived at the same interpretation of the passage, even though they still held a belief in a fallen angel from the New Testament. The intellectual honesty shown by these students was unlike anything I’ve seen in online forums

Let me give you an example:

The NET Bible Scholars wrote this:

Ezek 28:14 tn Heb “you (were) an anointed cherub that covers and I placed you.” In the Hebrew text the ruler of Tyre is equated with a cherub, and the verb “I placed you” is taken with what follows (“on the holy mountain of God”).

While they struggle to interpret it's meaning, yet they still recognized that the lament is directed at the King of Tyre and understood the context correctly.

Those in this forum, however, cannot even get to first base.

Is been a long time since I placed any dependence upon so called Bible Scholars. Westcott and Hort were Bible scholars, yet also spiritualists and Catholic apologists, Mariologists, ritualists, and traitors to protestantism. Newman was a Bible scholar. A traitor to the church of England and willing to sell the church to Rome for the price of a Cardinals hat.
Nowhere did Christ ever counsel His church to trust in others to interpret Scripture for them, and place their eternal destiny in the hand of strangers.

You seem to imagine yourself as an interpreter of Scripture par excellence, yet one that denies the obvious spiritual connotations the prophecy alludes to. I don't think anyone here has outright denied the address of Ezekiel as being literal directed to the king, possibly Ethbaal II who reigned when Nebuchadnezzar was attacking Tyre. But you are denying the spiritual power of prophecy in that it reveals layers of reality in that behind the play and counter play of humanity and the conflicts that throughout history have plagued this world, there is a spiritual warfare being conducted under certain conditions of engagement between Christ and Satan, a war over God's character, and His laws. You would do well too humble yourself and consider that there are truths and levels of spiritual reality not discerned by the casual reader of Scripture who tends to take everything literally, and when challenged, resorts to huffing and puffing and chest extensions along with claims of superiority in learning in order to maintain their cause.

Why do you think those you are debating aren't focusing on the historical king of Tyre in this passage? Maybe it's because they recognize that the spiritual warfare we are all engaged in is of far greater import than a 2500 year old pompous deluded proud idolatrous king, and it is that warfare and the identity of those engaged in it, that God seeks that we should understand.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Is been a long time since I placed any dependence upon so called Bible Scholars. Westcott and Hort were Bible scholars, yet also spiritualists and Catholic apologists, Mariologists, ritualists, and traitors to protestantism. Newman was a Bible scholar. A traitor to the church of England and willing to sell the church to Rome for the price of a Cardinals hat.
Nowhere did Christ ever counsel His church to trust in others to interpret Scripture for them, and place their eternal destiny in the hand of strangers.

You seem to imagine yourself as an interpreter of Scripture par excellence, yet one that denies the obvious spiritual connotations the prophecy alludes to. I don't think anyone here has outright denied the address of Ezekiel as being literal directed to the king, possibly Ethbaal II who reigned when Nebuchadnezzar was attacking Tyre. But you are denying the spiritual power of prophecy in that it reveals layers of reality in that behind the play and counter play of humanity and the conflicts that throughout history have plagued this world, there is a spiritual warfare being conducted under certain conditions of engagement between Christ and Satan, a war over God's character, and His laws. You would do well too humble yourself and consider that there are truths and levels of spiritual reality not discerned by the casual reader of Scripture who tends to take everything literally, and when challenged, resorts to huffing and puffing and chest extensions along with claims of superiority in learning in order to maintain their cause.

Why do you think those you are debating aren't focusing on the historical king of Tyre in this passage? Maybe it's because they recognize that the spiritual warfare we are all engaged in is of far greater import than a 2500 year old pompous deluded proud idolatrous king, and it is that warfare and the identity of those engaged in it, that God seeks that we should understand.

A lot of this is noise.

You acknowledge that the king of Tyre is being addressed, yet you insist the passage must also refer to Satan’s fall, even though you cannot explain how such a story fits within the prophetic context that Ezekiel provides

You don't need to be a scholar to read the text with care.

Chapters 26 and 27 of Ezekiel record the destruction of Tyre, fulfilled literally, since the ancient site remains today ‘like the top of a rock…a place to spread nets upon’ and has never been rebuilt (Ezek. 26:14). The rest of chapter 28 addresses Sidon and the future restoration of Israel.

Why, in this context, would the prophet suddenly insert a revelation about the origin of Satan?

Do not assume or invent a response, look for evidence.

For example, do any New Testament writers interpret this prophecy as the origin story of your being? If so, show your evidence - if not why not?

 

[RLT63]

No, because the correct methodology is to interpret the symbol strictly within the context of Scripture.

For example, if I asked why God uses Eden, the Cherub, and the stones of the Breastplate as symbols, you would examine the Torah to understand their meaning and then discern how God employed them to teach Israel. What you would not do is impose a non-biblical story onto the text.

If I asked you to envision the imagery of the stones as the High Priest entered the Holy of Holies once a year, your mind could picture them radiating bright lights, like fire.

I don’t need you to agree, as I already know you can envision it; any resistance is simply an attempt to hold on to your own individuality.

I get it - but I'm concerned about your individuality RLT - only that the truth concerning that text is known by you. What you do with it is up to you! Sow the seed and God gives the increase.

Okay, let’s say you’re right about Ezekiel 28 and allusions to Satan are later interpretations and not the original intent of the author. What else do you have?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Okay, let’s say you’re right about Ezekiel 28 and allusions to Satan are later interpretations and not the original intent of the author. What else do you have?

This man whom God judged was no different from many proud men throughout history. The king, secure in his seemingly impregnable island fortress, scoffed at any threat to his safety. Proud of his achievements, arrogant toward others, and convinced of his own wisdom, he aspired to equality with God (v. 2). @Brakelite (2 Phil ) In doing so, he simply followed the pattern of Adam, who sinned and was cast out of Eden.

He is told in the text that he is nothing more than ‘Adam,’ and that Adam’s fate would be his own.

He imagined himself the embodiment of wisdom and beauty, just as Adam once was (vv. 4–12). He believed he possessed divine glory (v. 2), though that truly belonged to Adam. He thought he had divine wisdom (v. 3), yet Adam had been instructed by the Cherub (v. 14). And just as Adam sinned and was expelled from the Garden, so the king of Tyre would be cast down from his position because of his pride (Ezek. 26:2).

The lament is a dirge of pointed irony and sharp satire, using Adam’s great sin as a parallel to the downfall of Ithobal. Figuratively, he had been ‘in Eden’ because he repeated Adam’s sin, and in that sense, so does everyone who follows the same path (Ezek. 31:8).

 

[RLT63]

This man whom God judged was no different from many proud men throughout history. The king, secure in his seemingly impregnable island fortress, scoffed at any threat to his safety. Proud of his achievements, arrogant toward others, and convinced of his own wisdom, he aspired to equality with God (v. 2). @Brakelite (2 Phil ) In doing so, he simply followed the pattern of Adam, who sinned and was cast out of Eden.

He is told in the text that he is nothing more than ‘Adam,’ and that Adam’s fate would be his own.

He imagined himself the embodiment of wisdom and beauty, just as Adam once was (vv. 4–12). He believed he possessed divine glory (v. 2), though that truly belonged to Adam. He thought he had divine wisdom (v. 3), yet Adam had been instructed by the Cherub (v. 14). And just as Adam sinned and was expelled from the Garden, so the king of Tyre would be cast down from his position because of his pride (Ezek. 26:2).

The lament is a dirge of pointed irony and sharp satire, using Adam’s great sin as a parallel to the downfall of Ithobal. Figuratively, he had been ‘in Eden’ because he repeated Adam’s sin, and in that sense, so does everyone who follows the same path (Ezek. 31:8).

What does this mean - the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. .

 

[RLT63]

Here is a comprehensive, book-by-book list of every direct mention of Satan, the devil, Beelzebub, or their clear equivalents in the Bible (using standard English translations like KJV, ESV, NASB, NIV). I’ve included the Hebrew/Greek terms where relevant, and grouped by name/title for clarity.1. Satan (Hebrew: שָׂטָן / śāṭān = “adversary”; Greek: Σατανᾶς / Satanas)

• Old Testament (always “Satan” as a title, sometimes with the definite article “the Satan”):
  • 1 Chronicles 21:1 – “Satan stood up against Israel…”
  • Job 1:6, 1:7 (twice), 1:8, 1:9, 1:12 (twice), 2:1, 2:2 (twice), 2:3, 2:4, 2:6, 2:7 – (14× total in Job)
  • Zechariah 3:1, 3:2 (twice)
• New Testament (now a proper name):
  • Matthew 4:10; 12:26 (twice); 16:23
  • Mark 1:13; 3:23 (twice), 3:26; 4:15; 8:33
  • Luke 4:8; 10:18; 11:18; 13:16; 22:3; 22:31
  • John 13:27
  • Acts 5:3; 26:18
  • Romans 16:20
  • 1 Corinthians 5:5; 7:5
  • 2 Corinthians 2:11; 11:14; 12:7
  • 1 Thessalonians 2:18
  • 2 Thessalonians 2:9
  • 1 Timothy 1:20; 5:15
  • Revelation 2:9, 2:13 (twice), 2:24; 3:9; 12:9; 12:12; 20:2; 20:7
    (Total NT “Satan”: ~36 times)

2. The devil (Greek: διάβολος / diabolos = “slanderer, accuser”)

• Matthew 4:1, 4:5, 4:8, 4:11; 13:39; 25:41
• Luke 4:2, 4:3, 4:5, 4:6, 4:13; 8:12
• John 8:44; 13:2
• Acts 10:38; 13:10
• Ephesians 4:27; 6:11
• 1 Timothy 3:6, 3:7
• 2 Timothy 2:26
• Hebrews 2:14
• James 4:7
• 1 Peter 5:8 (twice)
• 1 John 3:8 (twice), 3:10
• Jude 1:9
• Revelation 2:10; 12:9; 12:12; 20:2; 20:10
  (Total “devil”: ~35 times, all NT)

3. Beelzebub / Beelzebul (Aramaic בעל זבוב / “lord of the flies” or בעל זבול / “lord of the dwelling”)

• Matthew 10:25; 12:24; 12:27
• Mark 3:22
• Luke 11:15; 11:18; 11:19
  (7 times total)

4. Combined titles that explicitly identify Satan/the devil

• Revelation 12:9 – “the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old, who is called the devil and Satan…”
• Revelation 20:2 – “the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan”

5. Closely related names/titles that most scholars agree refer to Satan(These are not the words “Satan,” “devil,” or “Beelzebub,” but are universally understood as the same being):

• Lucifer (only once): Isaiah 14:12 (Latin Vulgate translation of Hebrew הֵילֵל / hêlēl = “shining one, morning star”; not used in Hebrew or Greek NT)
• The serpent (explicitly identified as Satan in Rev 12:9, 20:2):
  • Genesis 3:1, 3:2, 3:4, 3:13, 3:14
  • 2 Corinthians 11:3
  • Revelation 12:9, 12:14, 12:15; 20:2
• The dragon: Revelation 12:3, 12:4, 12:7, 12:9, 12:13, 12:16, 12:17; 13:2, 13:4; 16:13; 20:2
• Abaddon/Apollyon (“destroyer”): Revelation 9:11 (often linked to Satan or a high demonic prince)
• The evil one: Matthew 6:13; 13:19; John 17:15; Ephesians 6:16; 1 John 2:13, 2:14; 3:12; 5:18, 5:19
• The prince of this world: John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11
• The god of this age: 2 Corinthians 4:4
• The prince of the power of the air: Ephesians 2:2
• Belial/Beliar: 2 Corinthians 6:15
• The tempter: Matthew 4:3; 1 Thessalonians 3:5
• The accuser: Revelation 12:10 (“the accuser of our brothers” = literal Greek “the devil” category)
• That ancient serpent: Revelation 12:9; 20:2

Summary counts (direct names only)

• Satan: 19× OT + 36× NT = **55 times**
• The devil: ~35 times (all NT)
• Beelzebub/Beelzebul: 7 times
• Grand total of the three names: approximately 97 direct mentions
• source Grok

 

[Hiddenthings]

What does this mean - the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. .

His splendor, wealth, and ornamentation carefully prepared for you from the day you became king, only fed your pride and led to your downfall!

This account also parallels Isaiah 14 (King of Babylon).

 

[Hiddenthings]

Here is a comprehensive, book-by-book list of every direct mention of Satan, the devil, Beelzebub, or their clear equivalents in the Bible (using standard English translations like KJV, ESV, NASB, NIV). I’ve included the Hebrew/Greek terms where relevant, and grouped by name/title for clarity.1. Satan (Hebrew: שָׂטָן / śāṭān = “adversary”; Greek: Σατανᾶς / Satanas)

• Old Testament (always “Satan” as a title, sometimes with the definite article “the Satan”):
  • 1 Chronicles 21:1 – “Satan stood up against Israel…”

If your first example was wrong what would that do to this list in your mind?

 

[RLT63]

His splendor, wealth, and ornamentation carefully prepared for you from the day you became king, only fed your pride and led to your downfall!

This account also parallels Isaiah 14 (King of Babylon).

I thought tabrets and pipes were musical instruments. How were they prepared in him the day he was created?
Tabrets (spelled taborets in modern English) are small drums like those used to beat out timing for a fife player. Pipes probably refer to tubes used to produce tones by blowing air through them, as in an organ.

 

[RLT63]

If your first example was wrong what would that do to this list in your mind?

Nothing

 

[Hiddenthings]

I thought tabrets and pipes were musical instruments. How were they prepared in him the day he was created?
Tabrets (spelled taborets in modern English) are small drums like those used to beat out timing for a fife player. Pipes probably refer to tubes used to produce tones by blowing air through them, as in an organ.

Out of interest RLT what translation were you using?

NET your settings and mounts were made of gold. On the day you were created they were prepared Eze 28:13.