Why should women not work? I live alone, I work and I take care of my apartment and I still have plenty of free time. So, why do you think it is needed for women to stay at home whole day and to live on their husbands' money? Just because of children?
Why men don't want to get married
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It is crucially important for children to have a lot of time with their Moms for secure attachment and their mental health.
But even without children, a good woman is not just going to sit there and do nothing all day. She's going to make the home a place worth coming back to.
She can put out his work clothes for the next day, fix wonderful meals, keep things clean and tidy, make money from home with a side hustle, etc.
The home is where I can truly remain feminine and cheerful as a wife. Women's hormones are in a 28 day cycle that is way less suited for the workforce than a man's. Men get a boost of testosterone each new day. Women get one maybe two high energy weeks per 28 days.
When they are really small. But later, they need to get independent and being still with/around mom is actually harmful for their development.
If a man did not need to earn money for the whole family and for a non-working wife, he could work less hours and be more at home and clean and cook and be financially more free and stress free. So... this argument is a bit circular.
I do not dispute that it is more comfortable to be at home instead of going to work :) I just do not think it is "biblical", "traditional" or even "patriarchal" for a man to be solely the bread winner and for wife to wait for him at home. This looks rather like matriarchy. Throughout history and throughout the world, both men and women worked, mostly in fields.
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I don't blame you for thinking this. Our marriage was more like this in the beginning. We both worked outside the home and were supposed to split the chores.
It was not stress free. We argued a lot because it was not clear who did what on both finances and chores. Because of that, things on both our ends fall through the cracks.
I see this as a means of survival, not the ideal. The 50's may be a specific time in history, but that doesn't mean it wasn't ideal.
And this leads us back to "why men don't want to get married" :) They need to either argue with or provide for a woman to have peace.
It seems to me that the easiest win for men is to not play this game at all... and to buy a dog or something, if they feel lonely.
Why should the ideal be that man must work twice than he needs because of somebody else? This does not look like patriarchy, but like matriarchy.
Patriarchy would be men at home and women working and bringing home money. And men could use their free time for creativity, hobbies, philosophy... and I think it would also make them more cheerful than 9-5 jobs ;-)
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my dad did not want my mother to have to work. There were 7 of us kids, very close in age and she sure did have her hands tied like, all the time. I was closer to my mom than anyone till, this day. Coming home for lunch and coming home at the end of the day was always awesome because my mom was ALWAYS there for us. Always a hot meal on the table and we all ate together every night. I would not have wanted her to be at work. Wouldn't have changed that for the world, I miss her terribly as she's died at a young age, we were all out of the house by then but it still stings when thinking of the things I did NOT do or say to her. I know where she is and am so glad she is not in this horrible world.
Lol. You would think more women would see the benefit of this.
Roles streamline effectiveness. If all you had to do was worry about making money, it'd be a lot easier. Since all I have to do is manage the household, Ive gotten good at it.
A traditional man sees the value in his sacrifice in that he is appreciated (ideally) and can then take ownership in the wellbeing of his wife and children.
My husband doesn't have to work as hard as he does. He does it because he finds fulfillment in sacrificing for the good of others, especially me and the children. When we flourish and the home is peaceful, it feels worth it to him. He feels a sense of pride.
I understand that from your point of view as a child it was better. So, men are here to work for women and children? :)my dad did not want my mother to have to work. There were 7 of us kids, very close in age and she sure did have her hands tied like, all the time. I was closer to my mom than anyone till, this day. Coming home for lunch and coming home at the end of the day was always awesome because my mom was ALWAYS there for us. Always a hot meal on the table and we all ate together every night. I would not have wanted her to be at work. Wouldn't have changed that for the world, I miss her terribly as she's died at a young age, we were all out of the house by then but it still stings when thinking of the things I did NOT do or say to her. I know where she is and am so glad she is not in this horrible world.
"A traditional man" - I think this is some kind of cultural myth in the USA. It is not traditional for men to work and for women to be at home. It was just quite a short period of time in history, one or two generations and it fell apart, economically.
A breadwinner. A provider. Even if its not historically the case, it is still the ideal. And it only shifted due to feminism.
If it is not historically the case, then it is not "traditional", right?
It is ideal for women to be at home and chat with other women and be cheerful, sure. As it would be ideal for men, too. I think it shifted because it was a utopia, working just for the post-war period in which plenty of countries paid the US for the military help.
I don't mind it not being considered traditional. I just care that it works.
Feminists like Betty Friedan started telling women that being home was somehow oppressive. The Feminine Mystique was about that. Once women demanded equal pay in 1979, companies could no longer give a family wage to a breadwinner. There was also more competition for jobs as women flooded the workforce.
The thing is, I am not against women working. I am against careerism. I dont even think breadwinners should sacrifice time with family to maximize money. We all belong at home.
Careerism and feminism teaches women to go get in debt at college and have a career only because you can't trust a man to take care of you. I fundamentally disagree and this undermines how well men and women can function together.
Feminism might change the previous mindset of women (and of men too, BTW). But my guess is that, that post-war growth lifestyle would not be possible today, anyway - because of economic reasons.
"We all belong at home" is an interesting idea, not historical or traditional, but surely interesting. Maybe with some kind of universal income in the future.
Before the industrial revolution, fathers mostly worked out of their homes. I think that was good.
Now most fathers work outside the home but that doesn't mean they can't value their time and impact there. If a man can run a business with his family, this is good too.
Because I've seen how awful divorce is and I don't trust women enough to marry one.
From my X / Twitter “For you” feed this morning -
“‘Feminism is just about choice’
’feminism is good for women’
Also feminism:
In The Second Sex (1949), de Beauvoir wrote: ‘No woman should be authorized to stay at home… Women should not be allowed that choice, precisely because if there is such a choice, too many women will make it.’ The mother of modern feminism believed women had to be denied freedom, because freedom would make them choose traditional roles.
Firestone: In The Dialectic of Sex (1970), Firestone wrote: ‘The end goal of feminist revolution must be… not just the elimination of male sex privilege but of the sex distinction itself: genital differences between human beings would no longer matter culturally… The tyranny of the biological family would be broken.’ The goal was never equality, it was the destruction of sex-based reality.
Betty Friedan: ‘women who “adjust” as housewives, who grow up wanting to be “just a housewife,” are in as much danger as the millions who walked to their own death in the concentration camps… they ate suffering a slow death of mind and spirit.’
Kate Millett: Sexual Politics (1970) argued: ‘The chief institution of patriarchy is the family. The family unit must go…’
Gloria Steinem: “We Became the Men We Wanted to Marry”
Steinem’s vision of feminism wasn’t about honoring womanhood, but replacing it, with a female iteration of male ambition.
Friedrich Engles: In The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State, Engels (Marx’s collaborator wrote: ‘The modern individual family is founded on the open or concealed domestic slavery of the wife.‘ To destroy capitalism, you had to destroy the traditional family. That’s why early socialist movements embraced feminism, not to liberate women, but to dissolve the structure that made civilization sustainable.”
I haven’t read any of the books she quotes from. I’m taking at face value that she has quoted the sources accurately. I‘ve heard a few of the quotes repeated by other sources, but you need to do your own homework. IF the quotes are accurate, they are damning.
“‘Feminism is just about choice’
’feminism is good for women’
Also feminism:
In The Second Sex (1949), de Beauvoir wrote: ‘No woman should be authorized to stay at home… Women should not be allowed that choice, precisely because if there is such a choice, too many women will make it.’ The mother of modern feminism believed women had to be denied freedom, because freedom would make them choose traditional roles.
Firestone: In The Dialectic of Sex (1970), Firestone wrote: ‘The end goal of feminist revolution must be… not just the elimination of male sex privilege but of the sex distinction itself: genital differences between human beings would no longer matter culturally… The tyranny of the biological family would be broken.’ The goal was never equality, it was the destruction of sex-based reality.
Betty Friedan: ‘women who “adjust” as housewives, who grow up wanting to be “just a housewife,” are in as much danger as the millions who walked to their own death in the concentration camps… they ate suffering a slow death of mind and spirit.’
Kate Millett: Sexual Politics (1970) argued: ‘The chief institution of patriarchy is the family. The family unit must go…’
Gloria Steinem: “We Became the Men We Wanted to Marry”
Steinem’s vision of feminism wasn’t about honoring womanhood, but replacing it, with a female iteration of male ambition.
Friedrich Engles: In The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State, Engels (Marx’s collaborator wrote: ‘The modern individual family is founded on the open or concealed domestic slavery of the wife.‘ To destroy capitalism, you had to destroy the traditional family. That’s why early socialist movements embraced feminism, not to liberate women, but to dissolve the structure that made civilization sustainable.”
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I haven’t read any of the books she quotes from. I’m taking at face value that she has quoted the sources accurately. I‘ve heard a few of the quotes repeated by other sources, but you need to do your own homework. IF the quotes are accurate, they are damning.
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