Matthew 24:30 may have a significant mistranslation

[Spiritual Israelite]

If you think that none of those OT and NT examples of resurrections were to a glorified state because you think Christ had to be the first to have achieved this, you have created a Scripture contradiction for yourself.

No, I haven't. why would anyone have been resurrected with a glorified body when it was required for Jesus to first be resurrected with a glorified body to make that possible for all who belong to Him? Acts 26:23 very clearly says that He was the first to rise from the dead, but you foolishly try to change the text to say otherwise. I can't take you seriously when you are constantly changing scripture the way you do.

That would mean that all those bodily-resurrected individuals in the OT and NT died again for a second time.

So what? Hello?

And Hebrews 9:27 declares that to be impossible,

No, it does not! Stop foolishly being so rigid with scripture! There are exceptions to the rule.

as well as Luke 20:36 that tells us "neither CAN they die anymore..."

That as after the end of this temporal age, which hasn't happened yet. You interpret EVERYTHING wrong. It's unbelievable. Ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7), so that you stop butchering His word.

The better translations of Acts 26:23 read, "...that the Christ is to suffer, whether first by a rising from the dead, he is about to proclaim light to the people and to the nations." (YLT). Or this one, "...how the Christ must suffer, and how, by the resurrection of the dead, he would be first to proclaim light both to these people and to the Gentiles." (WEB). There are several others that likewise recognize the correct verb being referred to. It solves the seeming contradiction problem.

LOL. A literal word for word translation rarely gives the true meaning of the verse. Give me a break. YLT might be helpful for seeing the translation of each word in a word for word sense, but it often does not indicate the real meaning of a verse. There is a reason why a vast majority of translations indicate that Christ was the first to rise from the dead. It lines up with 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 where Paul indicated that Christ's resurrection was the first in order in the sense of being unto bodily immortality. But, since you apparently just want to be contrary and have doctrines all to yourself, you just don't get it.

 

[3 Resurrections]

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be(future) made alive. But each one in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

Keep going. You missed printing out the third resurrection event on the list that Paul gave in 1 Cor. 15:24. ALL that were in Christ certainly would be made alive by resurrection, but not simultaneously. They would be raised in ranked chronological order by participating in one of three resurrection events. One for only the saints in AD 33 with Christ at Passover (and the Matthew 27:52-53 saints). The next resurrection was in AD 70 on that year's Pentecost day. And the one in our future at "the end", when Christ delivers up the last group of resurrected ones to God, and rids this world of all human evil remaining will take place during the time the Feast of Tabernacles once was celebrated.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Keep going. You missed printing out the third resurrection event on the list that Paul gave in 1 Cor. 15:24.

There is no resurrection mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:24? You are adding to God's word. You should be comletely ashamed of yourself the way you twist God's word repeatedly! I have no respect for you at all because of that.

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

No resurrection mentioned here anywhere. You insert an imaginary resurrection into the text. You have no shame.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Acts 26:23 very clearly says that He was the first to rise from the dead, but you foolishly try to change the text to say otherwise. I can't take you seriously when you are constantly changing scripture the way you do.

I am not "changing" the text. I am QUOTING different translations. You favor one, which creates a Scripture contradiction. I prefer to use the translations that reconcile the seeming contradictions so that Scripture does not fight against itself.

You want to simply ditch the one-time-only physical death rule in Hebrews 9:27. I would be very careful about sweeping that under the rug. Otherwise, once you get to heaven in the resurrected state, what is to prevent you from dying again in heaven, according to your interpretation? Why not say that Christ can also die again a second time? After all, Hebrews 9:27-28 is basing the whole argument about a one-time-only death experience for mankind on the fact that Christ was offered only the one time in death - not ever again after that.

 

[3 Resurrections]

There is no resurrection mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:24? You are adding to God's word. You should be comletely ashamed of yourself the way you twist God's word repeatedly! I have no respect for you at all because of that.

You have reading comprehension problems then. The context of 1 Cor. 15:20-24 is describing the ranked "order" of the bodily resurrections. Paul lists three occasions for this.

 

[kdx]

No resurrection mentioned here anywhere.

The text says:

First Christ,
then those of the Christ at his coming,
then “to telos”, when he delivers up the kingdom to his Father.

The question is about the Greek “to telos”, which some commentators argue could be translated “the rest”. But the word normally seems to have the meaning and force of “end” or “goal”. The problem with that translation is, however, that it reads awkward. The text doesn’t say “then comes the end”, but simply “then the end”. And so the other translation or idea of “rest” would fit better, and then the passage is indeed talking about the order of 3 successive resurrections.

It also aligns perfectly with the form of the passage, since after mentioning the resurrecting group at each stage, it seems to give the time reference for that particular resurrection. Look:

First Christ,
then those of the Christ at his coming,
then “to telos”, when he delivers up the kingdom to his Father.

So it is completely viable to see this passage in that way.

 

[3 Resurrections]

There is no shred of evidence we live in Christ 1000 year reign, or that the final judgement Matt 25 speaks about already took place, that Christ sits sits on his glorious throne on Earth.

How do you plea ?

That Matt. 25 judgment with Christ sitting on His glorious throne is a Great White Throne Judgment. In heaven. Not earth. The literal thousand-years millennium is quite another subject. It is ancient history, and came to an end with the "first resurrection" in AD 33.

First of all you have to proof "Babylon the great" is Jerusalem.

John already proved this. The "great city... where our Lord was crucified" in Rev. 11:8 is the same "that great city" Mystery Babylon in Rev. 17:18.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Over 500 witnessed His ascension up and into the clouds. His return will be visually the same as he left. This is how every eye will see Him, tens of thousands who are in Jerusalem but then broadcast world wide for all to see.

Not what the Bible says....and what the Bible says....is all that counts. Right?

Paul recounted what took place before he became a believer......

“For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.” (1 Cor 15:3-8 NKJV)

The 500 you mentioned did not witness his ascension, but saw him after his resurrection.

Acts 1:1-3...Luke writes....
“The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.” (NKJV)

So he remained present with his disciples for 40 days after he rose from the burial tomb which was generously donated to him by a faithful follower....Joseph of Arimathea.....he was willing to accept the consequences of giving Jesus a dignified burial and of openly identifying himself as one of Christ’s disciples.

What did Jesus say to his apostles in his final address to them?

Matt 28:18-20...
“And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (NKJV)

After saying that “all authority” had been “given” to him “in heaven and on earth” (Something that only his God and Father could bestow on his son) he told them to “Go...and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them....and teaching them to observe ALL the things” he commanded them to do...and that he would be “with” them “always, to the end of the age”.

So from an exclusive ministry to the Jews alone, Jesus indicated that now, “all the nations” would receive a witness. Was this witness to be given by the apostles alone? That is hardly feasible because it was to be carried out in “all nations”, till “the end of the age”. All the apostles were dead by the end of the first century.

Matt 24:6-14 was part of the sign of Christ’s presence (parousia). Not his “coming” as judge.

“And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these the beginning of sorrows. “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.” (NKJV)

This was an ongoing assignment for all his disciples from that day until “the end”, which we see looming, as we speak.

Almost 2000 years has elapsed since Jesus offered up his life for us....so have the divided churches of Christendom obeyed Christ’s commands? Are they one cohesive global brotherhood who all teach the same truths, with no dissension among them? (1 Cor 1:10)

These forums are proof that they have not, and cannot, agree on much of anything except the foundational doctrines introduced by the RCC.....doctrines that are not found anywhere in Scripture except by inference and supposition. Did this have a precedent in Israel?

Matt 15:6-9...after reprimanding the Pharisees for their twisting of the Scriptures into a tradition, suggesting what God never commanded, Jesus said....

“...then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching doctrines the commandments of men.’ ” (NKJV)

So allowing the Scriptures to speak for themselves, cancels out mistaken views.

This Kingdom rule happens at the 7th Trumpet ( Rev. 11:15-19). Many things occur at this time:

Seventh Trumpet (last trumpet):​

15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, 1. “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and
2. He shall reign forever ...
3. Thanksgiving and worship ...
4. Seven bowls of wrath are released ...
5. And the time of the dead, that they should be judged ...
6. reward Your servants the prophets and the saints ...
7. destroy those who destroy the earth ...
8. The temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple.
9. lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail

Yes...all of the above...but how, and in what way, are the kingdoms of the world to become the possession “of our Lord AND of his Christ”?
How does God’s Kingdom “come” so that his will can “be done on earth as it is in heaven”? (Dan 2:44)

 

[Aunty Jane]

And what is the truth Aunty Jane, Jehovah Witness)?

I know this is personal with you.....

As one who was raised in Christendom, but released from the shackles that seem to still bind the “many” today, on the super highway to an unexpected destination...(Matt 7:13-14; 21-23) I cannot see how the fragmented and bickering church system can ever claim Christ as their “Lord” when they disobey all that he taught and keep promoting their pagan traditions as if God doesn’t mind that their worship is corrupted and has been since the end of the first century. (2 Cor 6:14-18)

God is not a reader of labels...he is a reader of hearts, and will reveal his truth to the “few”, to whom it matters. (John 6:44; 65) It will be those “doing the will of the Father” who will survive these end times. That means obeying Jesus in all respects, not just talking the talk, but walking the walk.

That walk includes the command to preach about God’s kingdom in all the nations as one cohesive body....with one message to all who will listen....right to “the end”......so, when was the last time a member of any of Christendom’s churches called at your door to tell you about that Kingdom? (Acts 20:20) When I ask people what the Kingdom is, I get a variety of answers.... if they don’t know what the Kingdom is, and how it “comes”, and what that means for the redeemed human race, is it any wonder that they are not out there preaching? It’s a divided and scrambled message.

They sit in their ornate buildings preaching to the converted and hoping the sheep will wander in....that is not what Christ commanded at all. He commanded a search and rescue mission. (John 10:11-14)

Were Christ’s true disciples ever treated kindly by “the church” after the first century? Didn’t history repeat when the Jews hated Jesus and his disciples enough to kill their leader and persecute his followers with a hatred that has lasted for thousands of years?

Can you not see the parallel? The hated “few” are “doing the will of the Father”, but the hating majority are the ones persecuting them, (John 15:18-21) supposedly worshippers of the same God....just like the first century Jews.

Satan has no new tactics because humans are so predictable that he can use the same bait for centuries and still get the same result.

Time will tell as we see the world heading for big trouble on all fronts....we already know that the majority will not survive.....”just like the days of Noah”. (Matt 24:37-39)

This is no time to be spiritually sleeping....to ignore the message, or to be stumbling over the messengers because everyone hates them...

 

[3 Resurrections]

For your hyper-literal, rigid interpretation of Hebrews 9:27 to be true, you'd have to have those who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord all die, but there is no indication of that at all. Why would they need to die?

Here, let me quote you a hyper-literal, rigid statement of Scripture. "For as in Adam ALL DIE, even so in Christ all shall be made alive." (1 Cor. 15:22). NOBODY gets off this planet without passing through the physical death process, if you are one of Adam's descendants. For all of those who are "in Christ", the story ends with a bodily resurrection to eternal, incorruptible immortal life for them. The mistaken "rapture" teaching has erroneously taught people that somehow the rapture will allow them an escape from the inevitable one-time-only appointment with physical death. It's the serpent's lie all over again - "Ye shall not surely die..."

 

[kdx]

First of all you have to proof "Babylon the great" is Jerusalem.

Well, that’s easy:

and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified. (Rev 11:8)

Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem.

Secondly,

Matt 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Matt 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

There is no shred of evidence we live in Christ 1000 year reign, or that the final judgement Matt 25 speaks about already took place, that Christ sits sits on his glorious throne on Earth.

How do you plea ?

Why did you add that Jesus should sit on his glorious throne “on earth”? The text doesn’t say that.

And secondly, I think you mistakenly assume that there’s a one time event called the great judgment of Christ, a point in time when literally every soul should stand before Christ at the same time. The text also doesn’t say that. It’s enough to affirm that from that time onward (70 AD), every soul that dies will immediately meet Christ in judgement. And so at the end of history, every person has met Christ the judge at the time of his personal departure from this world.

And the New Testament is full of passages affirming Christs kingdom, and his coming in his kingdom soon, people actually standing there at the time who would witness the Sons coming in his kingdom. These are so called problem passages for everyone who doesn’t affirm that Christs kingdom has already come. But Christ must reign (currently!) until all enemies are put under his feet.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I am not "changing" the text. I am QUOTING different translations. You favor one, which creates a Scripture contradiction.

I favor the VAST MAJORITY of translations of Acts 26:23 which agree with 1 Corinthians 15:20 saying that Christ's resurrection was the first. His was the first unto bodily immortality because that is the context of what Paul wrote about in 1 Corinthians 15. Next in order to be resurrected unto bodily immortality, according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 are those who belong to Christ at His second coming. You are BUTCHERING these scriptures to make them fit your false doctrine.

I prefer to use the translations that reconcile the seeming contradictions so that Scripture does not fight against itself.

There is NO contradiction with seeing Christ's resurrection as the first resurrection unto bodily immortality. Without His resurrection unto bodily immortality, no one else could be resurrected unto bodily immortality. His resurrection is what makes that possible! How can you not understand that? Ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7).

You want to simply ditch the one-time-only physical death rule in Hebrews 9:27.

No, I just know there are some exceptions. That shouldn't be a big deal, but you make it into one for no reason while contradicting other scripture in the process, including the fact that the believers who are alive and remain until the second coming of Christ will not die at all. Oh no! But, that would contradict Hebrews 9:27, you think. Get a grip. There is nothing wrong with a rule that is true a vast majority of the time having a few exceptions.

I would be very careful about sweeping that under the rug.

You should be careful about contradicting Paul in Acts 26:23 and 1 Corinthians 15:22-23, but you're not.

Otherwise, once you get to heaven in the resurrected state, what is to prevent you from dying again in heaven, according to your interpretation?

LOL. How can you die with an immortal body?

Why not say that Christ can also die again a second time?

Because that makes no sense. I see that you have resorted to just being completely ridiculous and apparently not wanting to be serious. I have much better things to do than play your games.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here, let me quote you a hyper-literal, rigid statement of Scripture. "For as in Adam ALL DIE, even so in Christ all shall be made alive." (1 Cor. 15:22). NOBODY gets off this planet without passing through the physical death process, if you are one of Adam's descendants. For all of those who are "in Christ", the story ends with a bodily resurrection to eternal, incorruptible immortal life for them. The mistaken "rapture" teaching has erroneously taught people that somehow the rapture will allow them an escape from the inevitable one-time-only appointment with physical death. It's the serpent's lie all over again - "Ye shall not surely die..."

What do you think, that those who are alive and remain until the second coming of Christ will be killed when He comes? LOL. What a joke. This is a total waste of time. Paul said we will all be CHANGED to put on bodily immortality (1 Cor 15:50-54). Those who are alive and remain until the second coming of Christ will NOT die, but WILL be CHANGED. Being changed and dying are not the same.

 

[kdx]

A question for you (and others): Why would Christ warn His disciples to watch for the AOD of "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" so that they could immediately flee for the mountains to avoid the "great tribulation" days? Christ was going to return "Immediately after the tribulation of those days". Why was it necessary for the believers to flee from Judea and Jerusalem if the living believers were merely to be caught up to heaven with the returning Christ? It wouldn't have mattered what location they were in if the living were going to be raptured along with the resurrected saints. They would have been "caught up" to heaven anyway, regardless of where they happened to be located on earth, so there would have been no need to flee for the mountains.

Good question. But the tribulation, supposedly 3.5 years, only started when they would see Jerusalem surrounded by armies. So yeah, even if we suppose for the moment that all would be resurrected or raptured, I don’t think it would be a nice experience for the Christians to just let themselves be killed. So sure, why not flee in safety to live for some years and then be raptured in peace when Christ comes back.

But yeah, secondly, the thing with Pella is another of those indications that doesn’t make any sense with a full rapture. So to me, a partial resurrection (the first resurrection of Revelation Chapter 20) and partial rapture would still be a possibility. This is also what Milton Terry argues for in his Biblical Hermeneutics.

 

[CTK]

Good question. But the tribulation, supposedly 3.5 years, only started when they would see Jerusalem surrounded by armies. So yeah, even if we suppose for the moment that all would be resurrected or raptured, I don’t think it would be a nice experience for the Christians to just let themselves be killed. So sure, why not flee in safety to live for some years and then be raptured in peace when Christ comes back.

But yeah, secondly, the thing with Pella is another of those indications that doesn’t make any sense with a full rapture. So to me, a partial resurrection (the first resurrection of Revelation Chapter 20) and partial rapture would still be a possibility. This is also what Milton Terry argues for in his Biblical Hermeneutics.

For what it is worth, I believe the 3.5 years takes place at the end of time - at its completion, we will see the return of the Messiah. If you (or others) would like to receive a free copy of my commentary on Daniel, please PM me.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Paul said we will all be CHANGED to put on bodily immortality (1 Cor 15:50-54).

That "change" in 1 Cor. 15:50-54 was for the DEAD believers in that text - not the living. This was taught all the way back in Job 14:14-15. Job spoke about God hiding a man in the grave, then setting a time, and remembering him. "If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will wait till my CHANGE come. Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands."

Why should you call it a "joke" that all that are in Adam die physically? This was God's rule laid down in Eden, and mankind has inevitably suffered the effects of Adam's sin ever since. There is absolutely no Scripture teaching that a "rapture" experience will allow an escape clause from this one-time-only death appointment for anybody. It is an invention that has no Scripture backing for it.

 

[kdx]

For what it is worth, I believe the 3.5 years takes place at the end of time - at its completion, we will see the return of the Messiah.

I basically believe the very same thing. Only “at the end of time“ means at the end of the mosaic or old covenant time for me.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That "change" in 1 Cor. 15:50-54 was for the DEAD believers in that text - not the living.

LOL. You misinterpret literally everything you read in scripture. Paul said "WE" will all be changed at the last trumpet. Were Paul and the ones he was talking to all dead when he said that? Of course not. They were alive and, yet, he included himself and those he was talking to. For all anyone knew, since no one knows the day or hour of Christ's coming, He could have come before they died and Paul still said "WE" will all be changed. So, NO, that change is NOT just for dead believers, but also the living. We (those in Christ, whether dead or alive) will ALL be changed at the last trumpet when Jesus comes again.

Why should you call it a "joke" that all that are in Adam die physically?

Remember that general rule that has some exceptions? It's a joke to interpret it the way you do because of how that causes contradictions with other scriptures which teach that Christ's resurrection was the first unto bodily immortality and that no one else ever has been resurrected unto bodily immortality yet and won't be until His future second coming, according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23. How can you not understand that no one can be resurrected unto bodily immortality without Christ being resurrected unto bodily immortality first? His resurrection made it possible because it relate to eternal life, which was not possible without His resurrection. It's ridiculous to think that those who are ALIVE and remain until His second coming would have to die first before being changed unto bodily immortality. Why? Just to not contradict your false interpretation of Hebrews 9:27?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The text says:

First Christ,
then those of the Christ at his coming,
then “to telos”, when he delivers up the kingdom to his Father.

The question is about the Greek “to telos”, which some commentators argue could be translated “the rest”.

They are clearly wrong. There is no resurrection referenced in 1 Corinthians 15:24. Period. The end in that verse refers to the end of the age (this temporal age) because that is when Jesus said the righteous will inherit "the kingdom of their Father".

Matthew 13:40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

Do you have ears to hear what Jesus said there so that you can understand what 1 Corinthians 15:24 means?

But the word normally seems to have the meaning and force of “end” or “goal”.

And that is what it means in 1 Corinthians 15:24, which is obvious when you also consider Matthew 13:40-43 and other scriptures which support an Amillennialist understanding of that verse.

The problem with that translation is, however, that it reads awkward. The text doesn’t say “then comes the end”, but simply “then the end”.

Nothing awkward about it at all. That would only be the case if it doesn't agree with your doctrine.

And so the other translation or idea of “rest” would fit better, and then the passage is indeed talking about the order of 3 successive resurrections.

Nonsense.

It also aligns perfectly with the form of the passage, since after mentioning the resurrecting group at each stage, it seems to give the time reference for that particular resurrection. Look:

First Christ,
then those of the Christ at his coming,
then “to telos”, when he delivers up the kingdom to his Father.

So it is completely viable to see this passage in that way.

I disagree 100%. It is a stretch to see it that way, at best.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You have reading comprehension problems then. The context of 1 Cor. 15:20-24 is describing the ranked "order" of the bodily resurrections. Paul lists three occasions for this.

There is no resurrection mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:24. That is a FACT. You are clearly the one with reading comprehension problems (and spiritual discernment problems), as you prove over and over again.