What Does 'Surely Die' Mean?

[soberxp]

Because that knowledge leads to death.
Without any further explanation, that kind of knowledge must inevitably perish, no matter when you die.
Our death delays the end of the world.
But the downfall of the world is an inevitable trend under this kind of knowledge.

"Surely die " the full story is death of the world and If the world is destroyed, you cannot continue to exist.

 

[Cassandra]

The Seventh Day Adventist (SDA) teaching looks biblical on the outside, but their doctrine at its heart is contrary to the Word of God. Scripture tells us salvation is completed in Christ ~John 19: 30, but the SDA teaching of an Investigative Judgment says Christ is still investigating believers to determine their fate. The Bible says judgment for the believer is not for condemnation ~Romans 8:1 and takes place at His appearing ~2 Timothy 4:1, not in a heavenly courtroom.

Scripture says the dead are either with the Lord or in torment ~Philippians 1: 23, ~Luke 16:22 through 23, but the SDA teaching of soul sleep is contrary to the Bible, which never teaches this doctrine.

Scripture says the Spirit is received by faith at the moment of belief ~Galatians 3: 2, ~Ephesians 1:13, but the SDA doctrine of law keeping and Sabbath observance as a basis for salvation is contrary to the Bible which calls these a shadow of things to come fulfilled in Christ ~Colossians 2:16 through 17.

Scripture says Christ's sacrifice was once for all and fully complete ~Hebrews 10:10 through 14. The SDA doctrine of the atonement teaches that atonement was not complete at the cross.

The SDA message adds to the gospel. The Bible says, "If anyone brings a different gospel let him be accursed ~Galatians 1:8. Only the Word defines truth and anything that is contrary to the Word must be rejected.

The Bible shows death to be a sleep

Death is a sleep

Job 14:12; Dan 12:2; John 11:11; 1 Thess 4:13

The dead are unconscious

Ps 146:4; Eccl 9:5–6, 10

No work or thought in the grave

Eccl 9:10

Also 1Tim 6:16 says God alone hath immortality. The bible speaking of a second death? You speak of a second dying. No. It is a death. Think about John 3:16, "whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish", not shall be in a constant state of perishing.
And as for His judging?? 2 Tim 4:1
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; shall --not did . and here's a bunch more bible verses for you on it 2 Timothy 4:1 - Preach the Word

Resurrection is the only hope of life again

John 5:28–29; 1 Cor 15:20–23; 1 Thess 4:16

 

[bdavidc]

Hello @bdavidc . Let's see what you got...



I'm listening.



Actually, the conclusion is consistent with all other uses of the phrase 'surely die'. Using the word 'idiom' is going to lose you a bit of credibility.



So, what you are saying is that the phrase 'surely die' is not only literal, but really REALLY literal.



There were two deaths that happened as a result of Adam's sin:

1. 1st Death: The grave
2. 2nd Death: The Lake of Fire

Both happened on that very day.

Note that there is no 'Third Death' taught anywhere in Scripture.



So according to your interpretation, 'spiritual death' is the Second Death. Thus, according to what you just wrote, both physical death and the Second Death happened to Adam. You just contradicted yourself.

Death is death. There is no such thing as a 'magickal mystery unicorn fantasy death' in which nothing happens physically to a person.



Yes, that is a picture of the Lake of Fire. A common interpretation is 'separation from God' which is what you are describing:

View attachment 73430​

God told that to the Second Adam that was created on the Sixth Day. So yes, that particular Adam lived for many years in the physical body that he chose and with the parents that he chose.

Did you even bother looking at the next verse?



A new being was just created and had to be named. Do you not understand that the previous woman had a different name? You better go back and read Genesis 1 to 3 again. Eve is nowhere to be found before the Fall.

You need to reconcile why there were two different women with two different names. Until you do that, you are always going to teach falsely like everyone else.



You are busted. You can't have it both ways. The meaning of 'surely die' does not change from one verse to the next because it does not line up with your false narrative and false understanding.

The reality of Adam's Fall was way more profound than you currently can grasp. It's up to you to do your homework, come up to speed, and correct yourself as I had to do. God got me for believing the lies you and others here promote. It was not fun to be chastised.



So we are arguing 'style' now?



I couldn't care less where Truth comes from. If it's Truth, it's Truth even if it comes from Satan himself.

Prove the article wrong and then maybe you have something instead of ad-hominem.



The Bible does not teach 'annihilationism', nor does it teach 'infinite torments'. So far, no one here has the cognitive capacity to comprehend what I have been posting. Automatically, that makes everyone here unqualified to respond since they don't even know what they are responding to or even arguing about in the first place. It's all been knee-jerk reactions to new information. It's sad to watch, yet very predictable.



Which you already defined as the Second Death. You are contradicting yourself again.

There is no 'Third Death' in the Bible.



Except it doesn't.

*You* are the one attacking the plain reading. Cognitive dissonance strikes again.



Again, you are contradicting yourself. The Lake of Fire is separation from God. There is no mystical 'Third Death'.

You claim that 'mortality entered' without explaining exactly how that change occurred. Since you don't know, you have no authority to claim I am wrong.

I will give you a hint:

Mortality cannot 'enter' someone unless they were recreated with an entirely new body that had corruption already built into it.

And until you and everyone here understands the sentence I just wrote, there is no reason to debate further. Be courteous and take the time to understand my position as I have with you folks.

You made several accusations that aren’t based on anything I actually said. Let me clear them up with Scripture, not theories.

1. I never mentioned a “third death.”
You invented that and assigned it to me. Scripture speaks of spiritual death ~Ephesians 2:1, physical death ~Genesis 3:19, and the second death at final judgment ~Revelation 20:14. I affirmed exactly those categories and nothing more.

2. You claimed I equated spiritual death with the second death. I didn’t.
The Bible never equates spiritual death with the lake of fire. Spiritual death is separation from fellowship with God in this life ~Isaiah 59:2. The second death is final judgment ~Revelation 20:14 through 15. They are distinct in Scripture, and I kept them distinct.

3. “Two Adams” and “two Eves” is not biblical.
Genesis never teaches a recreation of Adam with a new body and never teaches two different women. Eve is the woman formed from Adam in ~Genesis 2:21 through 23. The naming in ~Genesis 3:20 is simply a naming. Nothing in the text says God created a second woman.

That idea is not in Scripture at all. It is private revelation, not the Word of God.

4. Saying “mortality entered” does not require a new body.
Scripture says, “dust you are and to dust you shall return” ~Genesis 3:19. And it says sin brought death into the world through Adam ~Romans 5:12. Nothing suggests God rebuilt Adam with a second body. You added that.

5. You claimed I denied the plain reading of Scripture. I didn’t.
Genesis 2:17 is interpreted by the rest of Scripture. Adam experienced immediate spiritual death and eventual physical death. That is exactly what Scripture says. Nothing in the Bible says Adam instantly died physically nor that he entered the second death that day.

6. You claimed I used ad-hominem. I didn’t.
I pointed out that the source of your argument is an SDA publication. That is a factual statement. Their interpretations consistently redefine death to support annihilationism. Scripture does not support that view.

7. You claimed everyone here lacks “cognitive capacity.”
That is not biblical correction. Truth is tested by Scripture, not by dismissing others as unqualified to disagree with you.

8. Your claim that Adam chose new parents and a new body is nowhere in the Bible.
Genesis 2 through 3 teaches none of the things you’re asserting. You are building an entire theology from silence, not Scripture.

I said exactly what Scripture says: sin brought spiritual death and physical death into the world ~Ephesians 2:1, ~Romans 5:12, and Adam became mortal and separated from God ~Genesis 3:8 through 19.

You accused me of claims I never made, and you added ideas the Bible never teaches.

Only the Word defines truth. Not private theories. Not “hints.” Not reconstructed timelines. Scripture alone.

You said, “And until you and everyone here understands the sentence I just wrote, there is no reason to debate further. Be courteous and take the time to understand my position as I have with you folks.”

I understand your position. The problem is that what you’re teaching isn’t coming from Scripture, it’s coming from SDA doctrine dressed up to look biblical. As long as you keep promoting teachings that the Bible does not teach, I will keep posting the truth so readers can see the difference.


The Word of God is the standard. When doctrine contradicts Scripture, Scripture exposes it ~Isaiah 8:20. If you continue to promote SDA interpretations instead of what the Bible actually says, then yes, that is false teaching. And I will keep shining light on it.

 

[bdavidc]

The Bible shows death to be a sleep

Death is a sleep

Job 14:12; Dan 12:2; John 11:11; 1 Thess 4:13

The dead are unconscious

Ps 146:4; Eccl 9:5–6, 10

No work or thought in the grave

Eccl 9:10

Also 1Tim 6:16 says God alone hath immortality. The bible speaking of a second death? You speak of a second dying. No. It is a death. Think about John 3:16, "whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish", not shall be in a constant state of perishing.
And as for His judging?? 2 Tim 4:1
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; shall --not did . and here's a bunch more bible verses for you on it 2 Timothy 4:1 - Preach the Word

Resurrection is the only hope of life again

John 5:28–29; 1 Cor 15:20–23; 1 Thess 4:16

The verses you listed must be understood through the whole counsel of God, not by isolating poetic phrases. Scripture uses the word “sleep” to describe the body in death, not the soul. Jesus Himself made that clear when He said Lazarus was sleeping, then explained plainly, “Lazarus is dead” ~John 11:11 through 14. Daniel speaks of those who “sleep in the dust” ~Daniel 12:2 which is the body that returns to the ground, not the spirit. Scripture says the spirit returns to God who gave it ~Ecclesiastes 12:7, not that it goes unconscious. Paul said he desired “to depart and be with Christ” ~Philippians 1:23 which is impossible if he expected to be unconscious until the resurrection. He also said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord ~2 Corinthians 5:8. Jesus told the thief, “Today you will be with Me in Paradise” ~Luke 23:43 which cannot fit the claim that the dead are not conscious. None of these clear statements fit the SDA idea of soul sleep.

The passages in Ecclesiastes you quoted describe life “under the sun,” from an earthly vantage point, not the nature of the soul after death. Psalm 146:4 says a man’s plans perish, not that his spirit ceases awareness. The second death in Scripture is the lake of fire ~Revelation 20:14, not unconsciousness, and not annihilation. Jesus spoke of eternal punishment and eternal life with the same word for duration ~Matthew 25:46. One cannot be temporary while the other is everlasting. The resurrection you mentioned is the raising of the body ~John 5:28 through 29, not the moment a sleeping soul wakes up, because Scripture says the soul is already with God or already in torment ~Luke 16:22 through 23.

All of this forms a consistent picture. The body sleeps in the ground, the spirit remains conscious, and the resurrection reunites the two. The Bible does not teach soul sleep. It teaches that death brings separation of body and spirit, not the end of awareness. Only the Word defines doctrine, and when the whole Word speaks, it does not agree with what you are claiming.

“Any movement that is begun by an individual saying, ‘God spoke to me. Let me tell you what He has to say,’ nothing good comes out of that … Once the Canon of Scripture is closed, the office of prophecy is closed … So for Seventh-day Adventism, for example, Ellen G. White, the first problem … it’s an immediate nonstarter.” ~ Justin Peters

 

[Exegesis]

1. I never mentioned a “third death.”

And yet you claim there are three types of death in your next quote:

You invented that and assigned it to me. Scripture speaks of spiritual death ~Ephesians 2:1, physical death ~Genesis 3:19, and the second death at final judgment ~Revelation 20:14. I affirmed exactly those categories and nothing more.

It does not matter what you call them, the end result is the same. You describe three types of death in the Bible:

1. Spiritual Death
2. Physical Death
3. Second Death

If you wish to argue semantics, then show me that exact phrase 'spiritual death'. You will not find it.

Look here...

The phrase spiritual death is not found in Protestant scriptures, and definitions of the concept thus vary among Protestant Christians.

Spiritual death in Christianity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's just a concept that was invented to basically say that someone is unsaved. OK, so then just say that.

The bottom line is that Genesis 2:17 does not say "thou shalt spiritually die":

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

You took away and added to the Word of God. Surely die does not mean spiritually die. You need to stop conflating the two concepts.

2. You claimed I equated spiritual death with the second death. I didn’t.
The Bible never equates spiritual death with the lake of fire. Spiritual death is separation from fellowship with God in this life ~Isaiah 59:2. The second death is final judgment ~Revelation 20:14 through 15. They are distinct in Scripture, and I kept them distinct.

What you believe is your choice. Again, Genesis 2:17 does not describe what you claim.

3. “Two Adams” and “two Eves” is not biblical.
Genesis never teaches a recreation of Adam with a new body and never teaches two different women. Eve is the woman formed from Adam in ~Genesis 2:21 through 23. The naming in ~Genesis 3:20 is simply a naming. Nothing in the text says God created a second woman.

You have proven nothing with your statement. Summaries mean nothing. I can do the same thing.

Do a verse by verse commentary and I can show you how your interpretations are false.

That idea is not in Scripture at all.

And yet I can prove it is all day long, using verse after verse after verse.

It is private revelation, not the Word of God.

I'm fairly certain this is a public forum. Don't lie to people.

4. Saying “mortality entered” does not require a new body.
Scripture says, “dust you are and to dust you shall return” ~Genesis 3:19. And it says sin brought death into the world through Adam ~Romans 5:12. Nothing suggests God rebuilt Adam with a second body. You added that.

God did not create the First Adam with sin and a corrupt body. So what changed? An immortal being transforming into a mortal being requires major physiological changes. Describe to us what those changes were using Scripture. You need to prove your claims verse by verse, not just give meaningless summaries.

5. You claimed I denied the plain reading of Scripture. I didn’t.
Genesis 2:17 is interpreted by the rest of Scripture.

And the rest of Scripture teaches that the man and wife went to the grave within a twenty-four hour period.

Adam experienced immediate spiritual death and eventual physical death.

Again, the phrase 'spiritual death' is nowhere to be found in Genesis 2:17, neither is the concept you are promoting.

That is exactly what Scripture says.

Let's see:

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Nope, it says 'surely die'. You are a liar.

Nothing in the Bible says Adam instantly died physically nor that he entered the second death that day.

'Die Die' means twice dead. It is consistent throughout the Old Testament. Do you believe they went to Heaven for what they did? Obviously the story does not teach that. No one that was told that they would 'surely die' went to Heaven.

As I have demonstrated several times in this thread already, the Garden of Eden, before the Fall, was a Heaven like environment. The man and woman were not physical beings. This is what is being taught. The man had to 'pass through the fire' before becoming a physical being like we are now. It is Bible Typology of how the Lake of Fire actually works. Old Testament is New Testament concealed, remember? It is highly symbolic compared to the New Testament. It takes more work to understand the language.

Those thrown in *pass through* the fire:

2 Kings 23:10 And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech.

Moreover, they go to a place called 'Molech'. We haven't even gotten that far yet. If you don't understand that those thrown into Topheth/Lake of Fire go to Molech, then we will have to pause the debate.

Again, the unsaved 'pass through the fire', they don't 'burn for infinity' nor are they 'annihilated'. You and the others here never bothered to do your homework to see what happens next. You just assumed the Lake of Fire was the end when clearly Scripture teaches that it is *not* the end.

 

[Exegesis]

Continued:

6. You claimed I used ad-hominem. I didn’t.
I pointed out that the source of your argument is an SDA publication. That is a factual statement. Their interpretations consistently redefine death to support annihilationism. Scripture does not support that view.

No one was 'annhialated' in the creation account, so your point is moot.

7. You claimed everyone here lacks “cognitive capacity.”
That is not biblical correction. Truth is tested by Scripture, not by dismissing others as unqualified to disagree with you.

What I stated was fact. No one here has demonstrated that they understand my position. Others, in other forums, have. It's extremely rare when it happens however. It takes a certain level of comprehension. It is what it is.

There is a reason that many, if not most scholars conclude that Genesis 1 to 3 is filled with mistakes and contradictions and was written by several authors that couldn't keep the story consistent from one verse to the next. All of you here teach said mistakes and contradictions day in and day out like it's no big deal. I am exposing that and challenging that.

Why are animals made before man in Genesis 1 and after man in Genesis 2? So far, all we have is that the verses are all jumbled around and that words must be altered to say something else. In other words, you folks teach the 'mistakes and contradictions' viewpoint without realizing it.

My interpretation:

• Contains no mistakes
• Has no contradictions
• Does not take away and add words to the Bible
• Answers deep questions that people have had for millennia about what happens to the unsaved
• Has *actual* good news
• Does not paint God as a liar
• Proves the Serpent to be the real liar

You people here teach that the Serpent told the truth!

Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

You all teach that the man and woman did not surely die. You then replace the words 'surely die' with 'spiritually die' and have the audacity to claim that I have no right whatsoever to believe the original Hebrew and its consistent meaning. Outrageous.

8. Your claim that Adam chose new parents and a new body is nowhere in the Bible.
Genesis 2 through 3 teaches none of the things you’re asserting. You are building an entire theology from silence, not Scripture.

What part of 'your father the Devil' do you not understand?

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Let me guess. You don't believe Jesus, correct? It's an 'idiom' or whatever? Jesus was not hurling insults. The verse, and others like it, are literal. Just because I have a deeper understanding of the literalness of Scripture does not mean you have the right or authority to take that away from me.

You obviously have no idea in the world what the Forbidden Fruit was, otherwise my comment would make sense to you.

I said exactly what Scripture says: sin brought spiritual death...

OK, now you are repeating yourself.

If you continue to promote SDA interpretations...

I am not 'promoting SDA interpretations'. That is a false accusation. And who cares if I was if the teachings are Biblical? Like I said earlier, Truth can come from anyone. I have no problem considering a theory no matter who it comes from.

Just for the record, I am not a Seventh Day Adventist.

instead of what the Bible actually says...

Seventh Day Adventists are quite capable of agreeing with the Bible from time to time. No one on the planet however, has it all figured out one hundred percent without error. No one.

...then yes, that is false teaching. And I will keep shining light on it.

I have provided no false teachings yet, but good luck. I have no problem with correction.

You on the other hand should take your own advice and go verse by verse through Genesis 1 to 3 and shine the light on where you are changing the narrative to suit your own beliefs.

 

[Exegesis]

Can we use some common sense here, please? God did not 'turn a snake into a snake'. Can we at least agree on that?

Whatever form the so called 'Serpent' was before the fall, it was obviously not a 'creature crawling on its belly'. The Serpent was *recreated* as a being that crawled on its belly:

Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Does anyone here understand what I wrote so far? Seriously, are you comprehending what just happened?

The Serpent had a body that was of a certain physiology, then God changed said physiology into something very different than what it was before.

The same happened for Ishshah. Her physiology before and after the Fall was very, very different. That is why she had to be given a new name.

 

[Exegesis]

The same happened for Ishshah. Her physiology before and after the Fall was very, very different. That is why she had to be given a new name.

How are the dead raised? What body do they come in? Do any of you know the answer?

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

What was the reply? Do you want to be called a fool? You better know what is being taught here:

1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Is that referring to 'spiritual death'? Obviously not. Moreover, one does not 'plant a body' in the ground and a body grows from the ground.

After someone dies, they eventually come back in a *different body*. Moreover, there is an 'in-between' process that occurs.

Ishshah was raised with a new body that could bare children. She became Eve because of it.

The First Adam was raised with a new body that contained 'seed'. His name stayed the same for a reason that you folks don't get yet.

The Serpent was raised as a 'creature crawling on its belly'. Not as a 'snake' as your nursery rhyme understanding teaches. The meaning is too profound for the milk drinkers.

 

[Exegesis]

Spirit never dies. Therefore, the phrase 'spiritually dead' is a misnomer right off the bat.

• God is Spirit.
• Spirit comes from God.
• God's Spirit has always existed and always will exist.
• God does not 'annihilate' himself.
• God does not 'burn himself for infinity'.

Do you understand what that means? Where were you when God began creation? Do you know?

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Where was your Spirit. If it came from God, and God's Spirit always existed, then guess what?

Job 38:4 was a hypophora, also known as anthypophora or antipophora. The question is answered here:

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Do any of you remember singing back then? Wake up and try to remember your first love from which you fell.

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Hurry before Satan arkancides this thread.

 

[bdavidc]

Again, the unsaved 'pass through the fire', they don't 'burn for infinity' nor are they 'annihilated'. You and the others here never bothered to do your homework to see what happens next. You just assumed the Lake of Fire was the end when clearly Scripture teaches that it is *not* the end.

I do not assume anything nor add my own mystical ideas like you do.

You keep demanding phrases the Bible does not use while ignoring the truths it clearly teaches. Scripture describes people as “dead in trespasses and sins” ~Ephesians 2:1, and explains that sin “separates” from God ~Isaiah 59:2. That is exactly what happened to Adam when he hid from the presence of the LORD ~Genesis 3:8. You can argue about the wording all you want, but the condition is plainly taught by the text itself.

The Bible also shows physical death beginning its course the moment God pronounced judgment. “Dust you are and to dust you shall return” ~Genesis 3:19, and later Scripture records, “So all the days of Adam were 930 years, and he died” ~Genesis 5:5. Then the Bible defines the second death as the lake of fire ~Revelation 20:14 through 15. Scripture itself gives these categories whether you accept the labels or not.

Your claim that “surely die” means Adam died physically that day is flatly contradicted by the narrative. The Hebrew intensifies certainty, not timing, and God blocked access to the tree of life “lest he live forever” ~Genesis 3:22 through 24. You also keep inventing symbolic structures that the text never teaches. There is no nonphysical Adam in Scripture. God formed him from dust ~Genesis 2:7. There is no second Eve. She was formed from Adam’s rib ~Genesis 2:21 through 23. There is no passage that connects judgment with Molech or “passing through the fire” as some spiritual transformation. Scripture calls that practice an abomination ~2 Kings 23:10. You are importing meanings that are not in the Word of God.

And yes, the ideas you are promoting match the same pattern as Seventh Day Adventist teaching: denial of conscious eternal punishment, redefining “death” to avoid what Scripture plainly says about judgment, and twisting Genesis 2:17 into a symbolic system the Bible never presents. That is false teaching. Jesus Himself said the punishment of the lost is eternal just as the life of the saved is eternal ~Matthew 25:46. Scripture settles it.

I’m sticking with what God said. You’re pushing interpretations the Bible never gives.

 

[bdavidc]

You on the other hand should take your own advice and go verse by verse through Genesis 1 to 3 and shine the light on where you are changing the narrative to suit your own beliefs.

You must realize what God says will happen to those who teach false doctrine. Scripture doesn’t let this go. God says, “If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words… he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing” ~1 Timothy 6:3 through 4. Jesus warned of those who “lead many astray” ~Matthew 24: 11 and He said they will be gathered out of His kingdom as stumbling blocks and judged ~Matthew 13:41 through 42. Paul wrote that false teachers “will receive the stricter judgment” ~James 3: 1 and that those who corrupt the gospel are “accursed” ~Galatians 1:8 through 9. Peter said their end is destruction because they “twist the Scriptures” ~2 Peter 3:16 and that “swift destruction” falls on those who bring in destructive heresies ~2 Peter 2:1. This is not a game. God’s Word warns plainly, and your teachings do not line up with what Scripture actually says.

That is why I’m being direct. I’m staying with the written Word. You’re teaching things God never said, and Scripture itself tells you what that leads to.

The only right response when your doctrine contradicts Scripture is repentance. Turn from your own interpretations and submit to what God actually wrote.

You accuse me of changing the narrative, but you’re the one adding things Scripture never says.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

• Spiritual death (whatever that means)
• Separation from God
• Begin the aging process and slowly die
• Death is certain... 'eventually'

All of the above are true. What did we inherit from Adam? Sin and death. The wages of sin is death. What happened to them immediately? Both spiritual and physical death. Their spiritual innocence, nature, relationship with God was cut and changed. Though they did not immediately die, their cells began to die. Physical death was now part of their lives. The entire ecosystem, the animal kingdom suffered from this act of sin that causes death. A distortion came upon the earth. Mutations in all the genetic code began. Bacteria, viruses, illnesses, pain. suffering, fear, shame, hate and oh yes evil. The knowledge of evil was prevalent. Animals that were docile and friendly became predators and prey. Death has a wide range of effects.

 

[bdavidc]

Can we use some common sense here, please? God did not 'turn a snake into a snake'. Can we at least agree on that?

Yes, and as you have pointed out, most people here can see you are a false teacher by using their common sense. You’re not teaching Scripture. You’re teaching SDA-style fantasy built on Ellen White’s myth-making, not on the Word of God. Genesis never says the serpent had a different body before the fall, never says God “recreated” its physiology, and never says the woman was remade with a new body. You invented every bit of that. The text simply says that a curse was put on the serpent and not that its nature was reconstructed ~Genesis 3: 14 and that the woman was named Eve because she would be the mother of all living ~Genesis 3:20. Nothing in Genesis 1 through 3 supports your claims. You are importing ideas that come from the Seventh-day Adventist system, not from the Bible. Stop twisting God’s Word and repent, because Scripture says those who distort it bring destruction on themselves ~2 Peter 3:16.

 

[Hawkins]

It's two-fold. To Adam and Even, it brings humans the first death. To humans on earth, it brings us the second death, spiritual/soul death.

"Crafty snake" bears a special meaning. It refers to that angels are endowed with a much higher intelligence than that of humans. Here's the big picture;

Both Eden and Earth are divine sandboxes designed to emulate Heaven, realms where high-intelligence angels interact with humans of lesser cognitive capacity. Angels, created to engage with God's manifold creations, were endowed with superior intelligence and abilities. Humans, by contrast, were granted a greater measure of free will. In Eden, situated within God's immediate dwelling place, humanity—embodied by Adam and Eve—was utterly defeated. A parallel defeat has unfolded on Earth, where all humans labor under the Law, overcome by the combined forces of the devil and his host of fallen angels. Consequently, humans cannot rival angels in intelligence or capability.

Yet, Earth differs from Eden in a profound way: it serves as a stage where humanity will ultimately triumph over the angels through the legal process of the Final Judgment, eradicating all evil once and for all. This victory will not stem from human intelligence or prowess but from faith—the sole weapon capable of overcoming the fallen angels.

Faith and repentance define humanity's capacity for correction. A person who passes the Final Judgment under the Covenant demonstrates this correctability. Through faith and repentance, a human can cultivate a love for God that defies the formidable odds posed by the fallen angels on Earth. Empowered by love for God, faith in Jesus, and a commitment to repentance, a human can attain holiness, ensuring they pose no threat in the Final Heaven. There, all evil instigated by fallen angels will be barred beyond Heaven's gates. Sin, which is anathema to God's sin-incompatible nature, cannot persist in Heaven, as it would harm Him. The human virtues of love, faith, and repentance, coupled with the angels' proven love, loyalty, and obedience—tested under the Law before entering Heaven—guarantee this sanctity. It is akin to a parent's instinct to protect their five-year-old child at all costs, ensuring no harm comes to them.

That said.
Tree of Knowledge = you subject yourself to the manipulation of the (fallen) angels with a much higher intelligence.
Good and evil = a human judgment or how human decision is made. Humans choose to put religion aside after receiving "scientific education" while science is completely irrelevant. Humans are fooled to fallaciously think that science is relevant in terms of making a decison on trusting the Word of God (i.e., words of God in Eden and the Word of God on Earth) or not. That's the effect of the Eden story.

Science depends on experimentation, yet humans lack the ability to step beyond their own realm to conduct experiments to make discoveries there. Therefore, science is incapable of revealing anything that does not exist within our own physical domain.

On the other hand, spirituality — from the very beginning of humanity — has never been concerned with what lies within our physical world. It has always focused on what lies beyond it. In this regard, science is utterly futile and irrelevant.

Today's humans choose not to believe what the Bible (Word of God) says, because they are educated (the 666) since childhood through our secular education system (bearing the mark of beast through at least 5 primary + 6 secondary + 4 tertiary = 15 years of brainwashing education) that they demand evidence or even scientific evidence for God's existence.

This demand is ridiculous. This is the leveraging of human inability to form a fallacious argument. We humans don't have the ability to acquire any evidence which are not lying inside our realm. It's not even the red unicorn case. We humans have all the ability in searching of every single corner of Earth to safely assume that red unicorn doesn't exist. We humans however have zero ability in searching any place outside of our space to tell whether any existence exists or not. Asking for evidence (especially scientifically) simply means to do something outside the capability of humankind. It's an ideal humans can't achieve but it's a specialty of devil to lead humans to the different ideals. That's the nature of the Tree of Knowledge.

 

[Exegesis]

Science depends on experimentation, yet humans lack the ability to step beyond their own realm to conduct experiments to make discoveries there. Therefore, science is incapable of revealing anything that does not exist within our own physical domain.

On the other hand, spirituality — from the very beginning of humanity — has never been concerned with what lies within our physical world. It has always focused on what lies beyond it. In this regard, science is utterly futile and irrelevant.

What if an ancient spiritual book contained modern scientific knowledge?

 

[Exegesis]

Though they did not immediately die, their cells began to die.

Why would an immortal being need cells? Cells need food to survive. Eating food = death.

Since there was no death, we have yet another contradiction.

How can animals and people eat plants and/or other animals? That would cause death.

No death means no death. Since there was no death, there was no need to eat to stay alive.

 

[Exegesis]

This is a good start to understanding the first verse of Genesis:

Almost everyone has it wrong. Earth was not created until day three. Everything before that is describing something *before* Earth was created.

 

[quietthinker]

What Does 'Surely Die' Mean?​

Take no notice or don't recognise insight and you will surely die.
Poking yourself in the eye with a sharp stick has irreversible consequences.

 

[Exegesis]

Almost everyone has it wrong. Earth was not created until day three. Everything before that is describing something *before* Earth was created.

Earth was 'without form' and 'void':

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Is a sphere without form?



In solid geometry, a sphere is the set of points that are all at the same distance r from a given point in three-dimensional space.

Sphere - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Nope. A sphere has a form when it is 3D. Moreover, 3D space is not 'void'. There is always something occupying that space.

Thus, Genesis 1:2 is describing a concept of what existed before the universe was even created.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Why would an immortal being need cells? Cells need food to survive. Eating food = death.

Since there was no death, we have yet another contradiction.

How can animals and people eat plants and/or other animals? That would cause death.

No death means no death. Since there was no death, there was no need to eat to stay alive.

They weren't immortal. They did not eat from the Tree of Life. They ate fruit from trees, vegetables from the ground. Animals did not eat eachother until sin came and distorted reality. Eating food does not equal death. Jesus' ressurrected immortal body ate food. Angels can eat food.
Your concept is not logical. Your knowledge of scripture is flawed.
Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. Gen.1:29