No future hope for Israel in the Bible
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The return from Babylon could not have been the fulfillment of Amos 9. Why? Because the Romans did drive them from the land :
Am 9:15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God.
This must refer to a future time of permanent occupation of Israel.
Yes, they are enemies at this moment, However,
Ro 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Chrysostomos
Well-Known Member
So you’re waving around “historic premillennialism” like it’s a trump card? Sure, Papias and Irenaeus bought into chiliasm, but that doesn’t make it true—or relevant to modern Israel. Your thousand-year kingdom fantasy, even if dressed up with early Church fathers, was sidelined by the Church for a reason: it’s a shaky, materialistic take that smells of Jewish messianism. And it still doesn’t prove modern Israelis are the “elect nation” or tied to the northern tribes.
The idea of a literal thousand-year kingdom (chiliasm) based on Revelation 20:1–6 did exist in early Christianity. Guys like Justin Martyr and Irenaeus in the 2nd century believed Christ would return and rule on earth for exactly 1,000 years.
But from the 3rd century onward, the Church rejected it. Origen and Augustine said the “thousand years” is spiritual—Christ ruling through the Church right now, not some future physical kingdom.
The Council of Ephesus in 431 AD officially condemned literal chiliasm as heresy. Ever since, both Catholic and Orthodox Churches have rejected it.
Then comes John Nelson Darby in the 1800s. He revived this condemned idea, baked it into his dispensationalism, and added his own inventions—the rapture and the sharp split between Israel and the Church. None of that is in Scripture.
You can not be serious. Look, you quoted my post, and I even bolded it out:
Israel as defined by the Bible. Now I underline it aswell. If there is a town or nation called Israel, that doesn't transform it magically into the Israel of the Bible. It was a covenant-people, based on the Old Covenant.
First of all, Paul adressed the same point. He asks, "has God cast away His people?" What answer does he give? Look: "No, for I also am an Israelite". Heres the text:
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. (Ro 11:1.)
He says that God has not cast away His people, as is also written in the text you quoted from Jeremiah. And what proof does Paul give? Because of some future, distant event, thousands of years from his time onward? No, he proves it by saying that he himself is a Jew, an Israelite, from the tribe of Benjamin. Paul is living proof, in his time (again, mark it, not some distant future), that God did not cast away his people. The Jews are still with Gods favor, because some of them indeed do believe, as did all the apostles.
And furthermore, Israel still exists today, but not in the form which it had of old. Israel was based upon the Old Covenant, but now it is based upon the New Covenant. Old Covenant Israel was just a parenthesis, the real thing is the Israel of the New Covenant, which is the church, which consist of both Jew and Gentile.
Yes, but this must then needs be fulfilled with the church, since that is the only Israel that exists today. Why? Because that is the only covenant that exists today, the New Covenant. And so all the prophecies regarding Israel which respect a future restoration to the land, which have been typed out but not actually fulfilled with the return of the Babylonian Captivity, refer to the coming of all the elect of God to Christ in the New Covenant era:
But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all. 50 Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish.” 51 He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad. (Jn 11:49–52.)
The gathering together, typified in the Old Testament by the return of Egypt and Babylon, is fulfilled in Christ. This is the literal, real gathering according to the Bible. You have it aswell from Jesus own lips:
And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. (Jn 10:16.)
You even underlined the statement: blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. But the text says absolutely nothing about what happens afterwards. That you read into it. It doesn't say that the blindness will go away, when the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. That's your addition. Paul only says: in this way all Israel shall be saved. It does not say that then all Israel will experience national salvation or something like that. So in this way all Israel will be saved. What does that mean? Well, he just said it in the sentence before: Salvation happens by means of a partial blindness of Israel.
There's nothing about time there at all.
it was all rejected though by the 4th century AD
Why the Early Church Finally Rejected Premillennialism | Modern Reformation
Chiliasm (1) is the ancient name for what today is known as premillennialism, the belief that when Jesus Christ returns he will not execute the last judgment at once, but will first set up on earth a temporary kingdom, where resurrected saints will rule with him over non-resurrected subjects for...
I am what can be called a realized millenialist, that Christ is reigning now with His people in Heaven, and that the 1000 yrs is symbolic of a long time before Christ returns to judge the world and give us a new earth and new heaven in which dwells righteousness.
Examples
Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
1 Cor 15
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have [d]fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
And
Matthew 22:43-45
New King James Version
43 He said to them, “How then does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying:
44 ‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool” ’?
45 If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his Son?”
Hebrews 1:13
But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?
@shepherdsword
I believe you make way too much of the fact that the text says "Israel". Sometimes God addressed not Israel, but Judah, Ephraim, Jerusalem, etc., there are different names. You should rather focus on the fact as to who "Israel" really is, and the reason why God addresses them. It is solely and simply because they are His covenant-people.
So when you read the Old Testament, and come across these terms, when the prophets for example rebuke them, replace the name "Israel" or the others in your mind by "my covenant-people", because that is the actual meaning. And then you know, once you get this important aspect, why it can not have any respect to modern day Zionist Israel, because they are not Gods covenant-people. Today, into all eternity, only the church is. The Old Covenant has been replaced by the New.
I believe you make way too much of the fact that the text says "Israel". Sometimes God addressed not Israel, but Judah, Ephraim, Jerusalem, etc., there are different names. You should rather focus on the fact as to who "Israel" really is, and the reason why God addresses them. It is solely and simply because they are His covenant-people.
So when you read the Old Testament, and come across these terms, when the prophets for example rebuke them, replace the name "Israel" or the others in your mind by "my covenant-people", because that is the actual meaning. And then you know, once you get this important aspect, why it can not have any respect to modern day Zionist Israel, because they are not Gods covenant-people. Today, into all eternity, only the church is. The Old Covenant has been replaced by the New.
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God the Father has committed all judgment to the Son
The Son judges the world at the second coming, that is the great white throne judgment of God.
Christ raises all the dead and all are judged on the Last Day of this world
Examine your own understanding, how you were taught and see if any of the scriptures here are contrary to what you believe!
www.biblegateway.com
1 I charge you [a]therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
Acts 17
30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
John 6:40
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
John 12:48
He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him— the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
John 5
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
John 5
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.
21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Lot's of pre mills teach differently, saying for example only the dead are glorified at Christ's return while living believers rule with Christ on earth in mortal earthly bodies!
The Son judges the world at the second coming, that is the great white throne judgment of God.
Christ raises all the dead and all are judged on the Last Day of this world
Examine your own understanding, how you were taught and see if any of the scriptures here are contrary to what you believe!
Bible Gateway passage: 2 Timothy 4 - New King James Version
Preach the Word - I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come...
1 I charge you [a]therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
Acts 17
30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
John 6:40
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
John 12:48
He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him— the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
John 5
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
John 5
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.
21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15:50-52 - New King James Version
Our Final Victory - Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the...
www.biblegateway.com
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15:50-52 - New King James Version
Our Final Victory - Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the...
Our Final Victory
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a [a]mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Lot's of pre mills teach differently, saying for example only the dead are glorified at Christ's return while living believers rule with Christ on earth in mortal earthly bodies!
Israel and Election, according to Paul, is not the same group. But there is an elect remnant within Israel. The greek of the text literally says:
Regarding the gospel: Enemies
Regarding the election: Beloved
But he already defined his terms beforehand, in Verse 7:
What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened.
The elect (same word and expression as above) are an elect portion within Israel, even at the time Paul wrote. This was always so, even in Old Testament times. Pauls explains it before Verse 7:
But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. (Ro 11:4–5)
Again, it's the very same word and phenomena he describes. This is who the election is. It's not referring to Israel as whole. It never did. You remember, "not all who are descended from Israel are Israel".
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Do you actually read the context of another's post or do you just charge ahead and fight some imagined windmill like a modern day Don Quixote? He accused me of holding some 19th century eschatological view. I showed him it's not. Please try to keep up before you spew your usual vomit all over a thread...thanks!
First, I never said Gentiles replace Israel. You have not shown how all Israel that shall be saved once the last Gentile is grafted into the good olive tree with those of Israel that were never cast away, can distinctively be ethnic Jews. Those passages you reference speak of the time that began when Christ came to earth a man that will end when the last/seventh trumpet sounds. This age when the gospel of the Kingdom of God is being proclaimed unto all the nations of the earth is the time given for ALL who believe to be included in "all Israel that shall be saved", whether Jew or Gentile. Whosoever is not eternally saved, born again, within this time shall suffer the second death.
Why would God restore the physical city as it was of Old since the city now being spiritually built it not of this earth but is heavenly Jerusalem? Jerusalem from above that shall come down from heaven prepared as a bride adorned for her husband once this first heaven and earth have passed away when the seventh/last trumpet sounds that Christ has come again.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Your faith in your own lies have been brushed aside by me already. What you say are words that will judge you. I am not judged by them.You’ve pulled a classic bait-and-switch, and it’s as dishonest as it gets. You threw around accusations of antisemitism in this thread, to which I responded: “Accusations of antisemitism are a compliment, not an argument.”
You weren’t talking about antisemitism as an attack on the spiritual Israel, the Body of Christ. You obviously meant it as criticism of the modern state of Israel and its citizens. You assumed that those calling themselves Jews in Israel are actual Semites, and that’s why you thought this thread’s arguments were antisemitic.
I already answered you:
“In short, in the thread ‘No future hope for Israel in the Bible,’ I’d respond briefly: Israel doesn’t exist.
The modern state called Israel has as much connection to the biblical Old Testament northern kingdom of Israel as today’s Egypt has to the Egypt of Moses’ time.
And modern Israelis are about as ‘Jewish’ as Arabs in Egypt are ‘Egyptian’ from the days of the Pharaohs.
No future hope for Israel in the Bible—and the real Israel itself is gone too.
You still haven’t proven that the group you’re talking about are Semites at all.
How can someone be an anti-Semite when the group you’re referring to aren’t even Semites?”
Now you’re flipping the script, claiming “Israel” is all Christians, including non-Semites, as if that’s what you meant all along.
So why did you start slinging antisemitism accusations in the first place? Your sleight-of-hand is as cunning and deceitful as Satan himself.
Your father, the devil, must have taught you to weave such sly, lying sophistry.
Your whole argument is in any case childish. The Jews of today are still genetically descended from the Jews of yesterday, just with more Gentile DNA in their blood streams - no matter what you say (you have no genetic science to back you up - but there is enough genetic science to show up your belief in your own lies).
They are still the children of the fathers of whom Paul said, "are Israelites. To them belong the adoption as sons, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the temple worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from them, by human descent, came the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen." Romans 9.
Paul called them Israelites in the same breath where he was stating that they are not all Israel who are of Israel.
So your words to me are a judgment upon Paul too.
But your faith in your lie that you believe about today's Jews "not being genetically related to the Jews of Paul's day" has you twisting scripture in order to attack today's Jews - because your own antisemtism is the basis of it.
Whether Jews or Gentiles, only those who are in God's Chosen One (Christ) are part of God's elect, a.k.a Israel
- but the Jews of today still retain enough 'Semitic' DNA - plus all the religion of the first century Christ-rejecting Rabbis handed down to them, to prove they are genetic descendants of Jacob a.k.a Israel
- and since they have always been called by the name of their ancestor Jacob, Paul had no problem with calling them Israelites in the same breath where he was saying they are not all Israel who are of Israel.
BUT It does not even matter by what name we / they/ the Martians are called - the only nation that has a covenant with God is the "nation" that has a covenant with God made in Christ's blood.
Your whole argument is childish.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Lol. How old are you? You're showing a lot of childishness in your speech. If you can't argue a point like an adult, why should anyone even bother with you?
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
I don't believe the above has happened yet. No un-walled villages and no peace - instead a daily existential battle in the face of millions of people who want to eradicate their state and violently "get rid" of every Jew living in it.
It shows that God did not bring them back into the land - it was they themselves who got themselves back into the land through their own Zionist movement - which brushed aside the biblical conditions laid down by God by which they may inhabit the land, and went ahead with that goal, anyway.
I'm not anti-Zionist by saying that. I fully understand the reason why a group of secular Jewish bankers got together in the late 1800's and set a goal - getting a homeland for the Jews in (what was then still called) "Palestine". It was a dream brought about by centuries of continuous blind antisemitism and persecution of Jews.
Before the 7th century AD no Arabs had even lived in that territory which since the days of the Roman Empire, had always been a province of some far-away empire or caliphate - but there has always been a continuous Jewish population since the days of Joshua. Archeology proves it, we don't even have to prove it using scripture alone.
So by 1947 there were both Jews and Arabs inhabiting the territory - not in major large numbers, but enough in Jerusalem to call it a city, and enough in Bethlehem. By then the Arabs had become the majority population (it's not long before the same thing happens in Germany and the U.K and France etc etc , but let's stick to history):
The U.N is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is it?
Well it was the U.N that gave the Jews their own homeland in Palestine - after partitioning most of what had for thousands of years been Judea and Samaria - between Jews and Arabs, and keeping Jerusalem out of the deal - which was supposed to be administered by the U.N as an international city, the capital of no nation.
Jordan invaded and annexed Judea and Samaria in 1948 (the West Bank), and East Jerusalem - after trying to annex all of Jerusalem (but was held back by Jewish forces). Egypt annexed Gaza, and in response, Israel annexed West Jerusalem.
That was the situation until 1967 when the six-day war saw Israel ousting Jordan from Judea and Samaria (the West Bank), and from East Jerusalem, and Egypt from Gaza - but Israel left the Temple Mount in the hands of the Muslim Arabs.
Many times Israel attempted to hand over territory to the Arabs and create a two-state solution - even offering Judea and Samaria, a.k.a "the West Bank" (and eventually, Gaza), but the "Palestinian" Arabs refused the two-state solution offers - because they claimed (and still claim) that the whole of Israel is theirs, calling it all "Palestine", even denying any Jewish ancestral presence in the land.
- and they will never stop their war against Israel and the Jews until Christ returns - because their war's basis is a religious war - Islamic.
So you are a little early on your fulfillment of Ezekiel, brother, for many reasons.
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Chrysostomos
Well-Known Member
This verse has zero connection to the modern state of Israel. Paul was talking about the Jews of his time who rejected the Gospel, not a 20th-century political entity.
Chrysostomos
Well-Known Member
You write as if there was any sense in your words to begin with.
You can’t miss something that doesn’t exist.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
You make your anti-Jewish (antisemitic) propaganda so obvious.
A few Brits said the same thing about Americans when asked if they love Americans
- so all Americans must believe that all Brits have the same attitude towards Americans and about Americans, and so all Americans should spread the same propaganda about British people that you are spreading above about Jews.
Your posts are so juvenile it makes me wonder if we don't have elementary school children posting here.
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