Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

[GodsGrace]

The "basic Christian tenets" are to love our Heavenly Father who created us and demonstrate that love by doing his will, following Christ, and loving one another.

That's it.

It's not necessary to understand or believe in "the trinity" in order to be a faithful follower of Christ.

Well NotTheRock that's what YOU say....
but why should Christianity be defined by what YOU believe?

Did YOU create the Christian religion or was it already present when you became a member of it?
Are you a member of it?

You don't say.

Do you believe Jesus is God?
Do you believe He died and was resurrected?
Do you believe He was both man and God at the very same time and 100% of each (not 50% of each).

You don't need to UNDERSTAND the Trinity....
but if you want to be Christian you DO have to accept it as reality.

Everything you stated in your post that you think makes you Christian is accepted also by every other religion...
except they might be following a different "person" instead of Jesus.

So YOU are following Jesus.
A man that believed himself to be God,,,
divine at the very least (depending on one's definition of divine),
and who went to his death believing He was God...but really He wasn't.

THIS is the man you're following?
You're probably following a madman and worshipping a person,, which is idoatry and an affront to God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Verse please?

This was for Trevor.

Why are you asking for a verse?
Do you trust the bible this much?

Then why not trust what it states?

It teaches that Jesus is God.
It teaches that the Holy Spirit is a Person.

The community, to which you claim adherence, accepts both Jesus as being God and that the Holy Spirit is a Person.
Why do you want to belong to a community with which you have nothing in common that is important and defines that community?

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Grailhunter,

LOL You have a lot to learn.

So Psalms is not talking about Yeshua.

Perhaps we could start to learn here:
Luke 24:25-27 (KJV): 25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Luke 24:44-46 (KJV): 44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[GodsGrace]

I am skeptical that anybody has a perfect understanding of the relationship and inner-workings of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. In any event, one's understanding, or lack thereof, is entirely irrelevant. I'm happy to modify my belief if scripture demonstrates that I am mistaken.

The CHURCH, to which you claim to belong...
has believed and taught the Trinity (the inner workings of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit)
for the past 2,000 years.
WHO or WHAT has convinced you that the church is wrong and you are right?

 

[GodsGrace]

Anyone can be a called a "Christian," if they simply identify with Christ as their leader. So, the question is, How good a Christian is a person who questions the fundamentals of the faith, the creeds, and basic orthodoxy in the historic Church?

The Trinity has always been hard to explain, but it has been explained that its denial confuses the essential Deity of Christ or renders his Divine nature a matter of confusion. If God's attributes include omnipresence, than how can Deity be reduced to the man Jesus? Only the Trinity can explain such a reality.

And so, many can claim to be a Christian and not believe in the Trinity. But they will not be faithful to the orthodoxy of the Church, and as such will be less good of a Christian steward than otherwise.

Interesting concept here.
I don't know that not believing in the Trinity would make a person any less of a good person.
The JWs do not believe in the Trinity and I know some personally and they are very good people (as far as a person can be good) and many times better than the Christians I know !

If you would wish to expound on this..it would be interesting to understand your point of view....

IOW, why would believing in the Trinity make one a better person?

 

[GodsGrace]

Those who don't believe that Jesus is God in essence/nature (John 1:1-3, 14) who do they believe Jesus is? God the Father masquerading as Jesus (modalism) or someone else? We have God, we have angels and we have humans. Is there a 4th category that Jesus fits into?

A 4th Category!
Very good MMD.
Thanks - never thought of this.

 

[GodsGrace]

If someone claims that Jesus is not God they are the Antichrist. Pure and simple.

If someone claims that the Holy Spirit is not God, they are an antichrist as well. Because they are NOT believing Jesus's very words.

Now,
I believe in the Trinity as a minimum. I believe that God is more than we can understand but the Trinity is a minimum which we can apprehend...but people already have an issue with apprehending this...
Obviously because otherwise it would not be an issue already.

Anti-Christ.
Against Christ.

Right....good point.
Of course, I agree.

Thanks John !

 

[GodsGrace]

It's not automatic that a person goes to hell just because they say they believe in Jesus only such as the united pentecostals denomination.

1 John 2:23
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Unless they want to make the false claim that 1 John 2:23 is a lie View attachment 73912

I think you know by now BB,,,that I don't judge souls.
Only God can do that.

In no way am I saying that if a person does not believe in the Trinity they are headed for the other place.

I just don't think they should define themselves as Christian.

AND He is God at the same time as being a human

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.





You might want to get to know God's Word much better before commenting and actually believe scripture.

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are One.

Concerning the trinity... the Father, the Son, and the Spirit... are One!

Pretty hard to explain away something scripture clearly tells us which is... One is Three, and the Three are One.





Why not believe what God says about Himself in His Word? View attachment 73911

Great verses for the other members !

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again JohnDB,

Nope.
I'm quoting the Apostle John.
He is plain, direct, and leaves zero wiggle room on this one.

There was an early separation in the time of the Apostle John, and John speaks of this as some aspect of the development of the antichrist.
1 John 2:18-19 (KJV): 18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

We have some indication of their false teaching in the following:
1 John 4:1-3 (KJV): 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
These early apostates claimed that Jesus was not a human. This later developed into the Trinity concept that Jesus had two natures, God and man.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[GodsGrace]

That's not true.

Islam believes their god instructed them to murder Christians and Jews.

Yes sir. You're right.
Never use the word "all" (other religions).

Not only that, but adultery is commonplace too.
Allah told Muhammad that he could even have MORE than 3 or 4 wives,,, (the limit for others not so lucky)
and what he could hold under his arm (his slave girls or any other that he commanded in some way)...
and even a 9 year old.

But that's another story.

You could just believe God's Word.

I do wonder how many times I would have had to read the NT to understand on my own.
The story of Adam and Eve is rich in its implications and teachings....
do we get all of it on our own?

You know what they say...
a 10 year old can read the NT and understand it....
a scholar can read the NT and it will satisfy him too.

I feel like the 10 year old.

He provides His Own commentary in His Word which is why we don't need man's commentary which is how satan spreads false doctrine by having people claiming to be "doctor" so and sow, and "theologian" or "professor" write commentaries claiming they are authorities that should be listened to when they are actually speaking for the devil

There's only One Teacher and that is the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ Who was sent to lead us in to all Truth and Jesus said God's Word IS Truth.

I don't care for commentaries - on rare occasions I'll post a couple.

I DO believe we need those that know more than we do...
We DO need to know when it's satan speaking and not God....
I think most of us here can determine this. (MOST of us...not all).

 

[Hiddenthings]

Greetings again JohnDB,

There was an early separation in the time of the Apostle John, and John speaks of this as some aspect of the development of the antichrist.
1 John 2:18-19 (KJV): 18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

We have some indication of their false teaching in the following:
1 John 4:1-3 (KJV): 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
These early apostates claimed that Jesus was not a human. This later developed into the Trinity concept that Jesus had two natures, God and man.

Kind regards
Trevor

Good post - hope JohnDB can acknowledge the obvious.

 

[JohnDB]

Greetings again JohnDB,

There was an early separation in the time of the Apostle John, and John speaks of this as some aspect of the development of the antichrist.
1 John 2:18-19 (KJV): 18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

We have some indication of their false teaching in the following:
1 John 4:1-3 (KJV): 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
These early apostates claimed that Jesus was not a human. This later developed into the Trinity concept that Jesus had two natures, God and man.

Kind regards
Trevor

They are referred to today as the "Gnostics" although they can be referred to as Nickolaitans.

John's gospels and letters focus on the theologies surrounding Jesus.

But to suggest that Jesus was not God is to go even further away than the Gnostics were willing to go. (Scary ground) And John says all that deny who Jesus was and is are Antichrists. Jesus is God in the flesh. That's what John says and proves in his letters and Gospel.

Jesus is fully God AND fully Man all at the same time. A paradoxical situation described in detail in Hebrews.

 

[JohnDB]

Good post - hope JohnDB can acknowledge the obvious.

I did.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

Christianity was already defined 2 thousand years ago.
Why do we think we can change what the definition is?

A true Christian is one who holds the teachings of the Apostles in its simplicity and purity.

Here are some more of the tenets - which Christiand DO have to agree upon or we're inventing our own religion:
1. The Trinity
2. The Divinity and Humanity of Jesus...the hypostatic union.
3. Jesus' death and physical resurrection.
4. Our salvation through His death and God's grace.
5. The authority of the bible. (instead of, for instance the Quran).
6. The second coming of Jesus and the resurrection of all mankind.

1. The Trinity: disagree
2. The Divinity and Humanity of Jesus...the hypostatic union.: disagree
3. Jesus' death and physical resurrection.: agree
4. Our salvation through His death and God's grace.: agree
5. The authority of the bible. (instead of, for instance the Quran).: agree
6. The second coming of Jesus and the resurrection of all mankind.: I agree with the second coming, but consider that only some will be raised, all the faithful and some of the wicked Daniel 12:1-3.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Hiddenthings]

Jesus is God in the flesh.

You mean God was manifested "through" the flesh.

Can you discern the difference?

And how does this process involve you today?

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again JohnDB,

Jesus is fully God AND fully Man all at the same time. A paradoxical situation

Paradox - That's one way of describing an impossibility and contradiction.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

A true Christian is one who holds the teachings of the Apostles in its simplicity and purity.

Seems we don't agree on the teachings of the Apostles.
Not all here agree with you.

Why do you think YOU are correct and the others you're speaking to are wrong??

I've already stated that it is not YOU who gets to determine what a Christian is in terms of definition....
(this is not to state anything at all about salvation).

A true CHRISTIAN is one who believes the major tenets of what DEFINES the Chrisitian religion.

1. The Trinity: disagree
2. The Divinity and Humanity of Jesus...the hypostatic union.: disagree
3. Jesus' death and physical resurrection.: agree
4. Our salvation through His death and God's grace.: agree
5. The authority of the bible. (instead of, for instance the Quran).: agree
6. The second coming of Jesus and the resurrection of all mankind.: I agree with the second coming, but consider that only some will be raised, all the faithful and some of the wicked Daniel 12:1-3.

Kind regards
Trevor

Here's the problem Trevor:
If we begin to describe Christianity in different ways - which is happening in the past couple of hundred years....
WHAT will Christianity end up looking like?

If we can each determine what Christianity is...it will certainly lose all meaning as it is watered down more and more.

You're very well versed in both the OT and the NT.
It's very interesting that I see Jesus all over the OT and you don't seem to.

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again JohnDB,

Paradox - That's one way of describing an impossibility and contradiction.

Kind regards
Trevor

PARADOX:

a seemingly absurd or contradictory statement or proposition which when investigated may prove to be well founded or true.
"the uncertainty principle leads to all sorts of paradoxes, like the particles being in two places at once"

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

Seems we don't agree on the teachings of the Apostles.
Not all here agree with you.
Why do you think YOU are correct and the others you're speaking to are wrong??

I profess what I believe and what I have learnt over many years. I am not judging others.

You're very well versed in both the OT and the NT.
It's very interesting that I see Jesus all over the OT and you don't seem to.

I see Jesus all over the OT also, and do not know why you say that I do not seem to see Jesus in the OT.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

I profess what I believe and what I have learnt over many years. I am not judging others.

I see Jesus all over the OT also, and do not know why you say that I do not seem to see Jesus in the OT.

Kind regards
Trevor

Sorry Trevor...
I meant as being God even in the OT.
I really don't want to turn this into another thread on Jesus being God...
although I fear it will end up as such.

BUT
I suppose you would say that Jesus was in the OT, but He was still created at some point?
Just to clarify.