Their kingdom

[Matthias]

“And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; their kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom and all dominions shall serve and obey them.”

(Daniel 7:27, RSV)

 

[Matthias]

Their kingdom / obey them: Bishop’s Bible, CEB, CJB, ERV, ESVUK, EXB, Geneva Bible, GW, GNT, ICB, JPS, TLB, MSG, NOG, NAB, NABRE, NCV, NRSVA, NRSVACE, NRSVCE, NRSVUE, OJB, RSV, RSVCE

His kingdom / obey him: KJ21, AKJV, ASV, AMP, AMPC, BSB, BRG, Coverdale Bible, CSB, CSBA, CEV, DARBY, DRA, EASY, EHV, ERV, ESV, GNV, HCSB, ISV, JUB, KJV, Lamsa Bible, LEB, LSB, LSV, LXX, MEV, NASB, NASB1995, NCB, NET, NHEB, NIRV, NIV, NIVUK, NKJV, NLV, NLT, RGT, TLV, VOICE, WEB, WYC, YLT

 

[Matthias]

“To enter the Kingdom means much more than to become a subject of God’s Kingdom, it means to receive a share in God’s kingship, to be one of those appointed to reign. Jesus speaks of the poor in spirit, i.e., the Christian ‘hasidim’ as those to whom the heavenly kingship belongs; they are the meek who, according to the prophecy of Psalm 37:11 shall inherit the earth (Matt. 5:5). As the old Israel obtained the inheritance of the promised land so the new Israel shall possess the earth as its inheritance … After the death of the Antichrist in Daniel 7 ‘judgment was given to the saints of the Most High and the time came that the saints possessed the Kingdom (malchut).’”

(Alan Richardson, An Introduction to the Theology of the New Testament, pp. 86-87)

 

[dak]

“To enter the Kingdom means much more than to become a subject of God’s Kingdom, it means to receive a share in God’s kingship, to be one of those appointed to reign. Jesus speaks of the poor in spirit, i.e., the Christian ‘hasidim’ as those to whom the heavenly kingship belongs; they are the meek who, according to the prophecy of Psalm 37:11 shall inherit the earth (Matt. 5:5). As the old Israel obtained the inheritance of the promised land so the new Israel shall possess the earth as its inheritance … After the death of the Antichrist in Daniel 7 ‘judgment was given to the saints of the Most High and the time came that the saints possessed the Kingdom (malchut).’”

(Alan Richardson, An Introduction to the Theology of the New Testament, pp. 86-87)

"i.e., the Christian ‘hasidim’..."
"the time came that the saints possessed the Kingdom"

Imo the Ḥessenin, (Aramaic), formerly know as the Ḥasidim, (Hebrew, mentioned in the days of Alcimus who betrayed them and murdered 60 of their men), most likely drew their name from this passage in Daniel, from the Hebrew word hasan/hesen, (חסן).

Daniel 7:22 KJV
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed [H2631 חסן] the kingdom.

So whereas the word in the above is a verb, the name of the sect would have been of course a proper noun taken from this verb, which is not unusual. The verb in the verse above was separated into several different words by the Strong's concordance, (which was not necessarily the right thing to do, imo), which have other similar meanings mostly pertaining to wealth, treasure, and power. However wealth is not always intended in the natural-physical way in the scripture: true wealth is spiritual wealth, (store up your treasures in heaven, etc., which storing up or laying up of treasure is the meaning of the Hebrew equivalent, H2630, to the Aramaic word in Dan 7:22, (and the Hebrew, H2630, also means strength)).

An example using another noun form, which is also written with the same three letters but pronounced differently merely by pointing, and the noun, of course, means wealth or treasure:

Proverbs 15:6 KJV
6 In the house of the righteous [tzaddik] is much treasure: [H2633 חסן] but in the revenues of the wicked is trouble.

Ḥessenin = Essenes = "Possessors of the Kingdom", (In the likely Essene mindset concerning Daniel 7:22), and thus the possessors of the kingdom are the truly wealthy ones, even though the Essenes were very modest, humble, and each one shared all that he had with the Yahad, (Community).

 

[Matthias]

The kingdom of God / kingdom of heaven is a future world empire / government, ruled by the Messiah and the saints, centered in Jerusalem.

 

[dak]

Matthew 16:5-12
5 And the disciples came to the other side and forgot to take bread.
6 And Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, We took no bread.
8 And Jesus perceiving it said, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have no bread?
9 Do ye not yet perceive, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
10 Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
11 How is it that ye do not perceive that I spake not to you concerning bread? But beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
12 Then understood they that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Luke 17:20-21 ASV
20 And being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.

(G1787 εντος / entos ≠ G3319 μεσος / mesos).

 

[Matthias]

Does what Jesus said in Luke 17:20-21 contradict what Daniel (and the other prophets) said about the future coming of the kingdom of God, which inaugurates the reign of the Messiah and the saints on the earth?

What exactly is the meaning of what Jesus was saying to the Pharisees?

 

[dak]

Does what Jesus said in Luke 17:20-21 contradict what Daniel (and the other prophets) said about the future coming of the kingdom of God,

No, it does not. Modern theologians and prophecy buffs have stretched the prophetic timelines far beyond recognition and at the same time have nullified the work of Meshiah during his ministry all the way to Golgotha and the week which followed, which fulfilled the timelines in Daniel, all because they never cared to study and understand the sacred calendar day laid forth in the opening creation account. The SDA's, JW's, Millerites, and all the lesser supposed prophecy scholars, all of them.

which inaugurates the reign of the Messiah and the saints on the earth?

The Kingdom of Elohim is spiritual, supernal, (of above), and within, and not of this world, just as the Master said: an earthly kingdom of below was the same dogma which Yhudah Yisakariot the betrayer believed in, (having been a Pharisee, probably of the Sicarii-rebel brand who held much the same doctrines as the Pharisees).

What exactly is the meaning of what Jesus was saying to the Pharisees?

He did not care that they were Pharisees and against him, if that is where you are headed: for the fact is that every human being of the creation of Elohim is designed to be a holy temple of Elohim and His holy Spirit. What he says to them is true of every human being, meaning that there is nothing wrong with what he said to them or why he said it to them. The age-old argument that he would never tell the Pharisees that the Kingdom of Elohim was within them is therefore a false argument. Every human being has the potential to become a holy temple of the Creator. He told them what he did because it is the truth whether they received it or not: and he meant what he said. I also know generally what the next argument is, and it has already been refuted in the previous post, (exchanging the meaning of entos, "within", with the meaning of mesos, "in the midst of", is essentially word sorcery).

 

[Matthias]

“Unfortunately this verse [Luke 17:21] has been abused throughout history and led to an overly spiritual, depoliticized and then trivialized interpretation of the Kingdom. It is a mistake to make this verse the starting point of our understanding of the Kingdom in the proclamation of Jesus.”

(B.T. Viviano, The Kingdom of God in History, p. 27)

 

[quietthinker]

The kingdom of God / kingdom of heaven is a future world empire / government, ruled by the Messiah and the saints, centered in Jerusalem.

The vision is short.

 

[dak]

“Unfortunately this verse [Luke 17:21] has been abused throughout history and led to an overly spiritual, depoliticized and then trivialized interpretation of the Kingdom. It is a mistake to make this verse the starting point of our understanding of the Kingdom in the proclamation of Jesus.”

(B.T. Viviano, The Kingdom of God in History, p. 27)

That's unfortunate for "B.T. Viviano", who by the statement quoted appears to be just another natural minded scholar who prefers or preferred to believe that the Meshiah is going to return in flaming fiery vengeance, kill one third of the population of the planet who received not the Logos which he spoke in all his Testimony, despite ignoring everyone else before that time who did the same, while the other two thirds of the planet refuse to repent: so he then sets up a physical world domination empire where everyone who prayed the sinners prayer gets to rule with him over all the lesser brethren sheeple who were blessed enough to survive a world-wide great tribulation, starvation, persecution, and were able to hide from the antichrist, the beast, and the beast system.

This is fantasy stuff and has nothing to do with the true teachings of the Meshiah in the Gospel accounts. His sent ones, talmidim-disciples, and holy ones, ("saints"), are never going to be ruling over other people. "B.T. Viviano" completely missed the message of the Meshiah and Chosen One in the Gospels.

Your apocalypse will not be televised: and it is to each one personally and privately, just as is the whole Gospel, to each in his or her own appointed times of the Father, a day which no one but the Father knows.

 

[Matthias]

The vision is short.

The age to come is long, and on the earth.

 

[Matthias]

“It was the beautiful dream of Hebrew prophecy that in the latter days the Kingdom of God or the Kingdom of the Messiah, should overlap the bounds of human empires, and ultimately cover the whole earth.”

(Henry Burton, Expositor’s Bible, St. Luke, p. 251)

 

[Matthias]

“If we endure, we will also reign with him.”

(2 Timothy 2:12, WEB)

 

[dak]

The vision is short.

Do you mean short in the sense of shortly or quickly to come to pass? (as in Rev 1:1?).

 

[quietthinker]

Do you mean short in the sense of shortly or quickly to come to pass? (as in Rev 1:1?).

I mean it in the sense that it is a primitive view

 

[dak]

I mean it in the sense that it is a primitive view

Ahh, I see. Thank you.

 

[Matthias]

I mean it in the sense that it is a primitive view

The Messianic hope of Israel; primitive Christianity.

 

[Matthias]

“The Davidic Covenant is a divine promise. God swore an oath to David that he would have a descendant who would sit on his throne, over his kingdom, on Mount Zion, forever (2 Sam 7; Psalm 2; Psalm 110; Psalm 132).

The NT confirms this. Jesus now sits at the right hand waiting until the time for His enemies to be crushed under His feet (Heb 10:12-13). Presently, we do not yet see all things subjected to Him (Heb 2:8). Rather, Heaven holds Him ‘until the restoration of all things’ promised by all of the prophets (Acts 3:19-21). This is why Revelation describes the Messiah returning to strike the nations and rule with a rod of iron (Rev 19:11-15).

The Bible’s entire storyline points to a future, physical, restored Jewish monarchy, centered in Jerusalem, ruled by the risen Son of David. This is what God’s word says, and therefore I place all my hope in this.”

(Joel Richardson)

https://x.com/joel7richardson/status/1991466055152095349?s=61

 

[quietthinker]

The Bible’s entire storyline points to a future, physical, restored Jewish monarchy, centered in Jerusalem, ruled by the risen Son of David. This is what God’s word says, and therefore I place all my hope in this.”

No Sir, this is absolutely inaccurate!
Unless you question this presumption, you will miss the entire objective of the scripture.... just as the Jews have.