Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

The following is a true definition of a "Christian". It is those who hold the same teachings and practices of the early Apostles. I suggest that Catholics and most Protestants do not fit this definition. For example, I consider that these believers did not believe the Trinity.

Acts 11:25-26 (KJV): 25 Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul: 26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Kind regards
Trevor

I'm not sure why you posted Acts 11:25-26
There had to be a name for those that had been abolished from the synogague and had to begin their own religion/church.
So they were first called Christians.

By the end of the first century and beginning of the second century, the term Catholic began to be used.
This is because small groups, with differing beliefs, had begun to break away from the group that was taught by the Apostles and that wanted to keep in this new religion what Jesus had taught. Catholic meant the universal church.

To this day there are groups that break away from what the early church believed.
If you wanted to read the Early Fathers (the first theologians) you'd find that they did believe that Jesus is God.

The universal church believed that to be defined as Christian a person had to believe that Jesus was God.

You said that you believed Jesus is the Son of God and indeed He is.
But we'd have to stop and decipher what you mean by this.

And herein lies the problem as I see it....
we should both automatically know what is meant by it...instead it is not.

Those that were taught by the Apostles - the Apostolic Fathers - believed Jesus is God.
And also those immediately following them.


Here are some of their writings:

Polycarp (AD 69-155) was the bishop at the church in Smyrna. Irenaeus tells us Polycarp was a disciple of John the Apostle. In his Letter to the Philippians he says,

Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth...and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead.1

Ignatius (AD 50-117) was the bishop at the church in Antioch and also a disciple of John the Apostle. He wrote a series of letters to various churches on his way to Rome, where he was to be martyred. He writes,

Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, unto her which hath been blessed in greatness through the plentitude of God the Father; which hath been foreordained before the ages to be for ever unto abiding and unchangeable glory, united and elect in a true passion, by the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ our God; even unto the church which is in Ephesus [of Asia], worthy of all felicitation: abundant greeting in Christ Jesus and in blameless joy.2

Being as you are imitators of God, once you took on new life through the blood of God you completed perfectly the task so natural to you.3

There is only one physician, who is both flesh and spirit, born and unborn, God in man, true life in death, both from Mary and from God, first subject to suffering and then beyond it, Jesus Christ our Lord.4

For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God’s plan, both from the seed of David and of the Holy Spirit.5

Consequently all magic and every kind of spell were dissolved, the ignorance so characteristic of wickedness vanished, and the ancient kingdom was abolished when God appeared in human form to bring the newness of eternal life.6

For our God Jesus Christ is more visible now that he is in the Father.7

I glorify Jesus Christ, the God who made you so wise, for I observed that you are established in an unshakable faith, having been nailed, as it were, to the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ.8

Wait expectantly for the one who is above time: the Eternal, the Invisible, who for our sake became visible; the Intangible, the Unsuffering, who for our sake suffered, who for our sake endured in every way.9

Justin Martyr (AD 100-165) was an Christian apologist of the second century.

And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, so also was manifested at the judgment executed on Sodom, has been demonstrated fully by what has been said.10

Permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts.11

Therefore these words testify explicitly that He [Jesus] is witnessed to by Him [the Father] who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ.12

The Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin....13

For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God.14

 

[Grailhunter]

Finally !
And there's no heresy involved.

I'll tell you this GH....
the Trinity is VERY difficult to define...which is why I tend to keep away from it - but it'll be brought up in this thread.

Sometimes two persons are saying exactly the same but using different words.
If we would just keep it simple !

Texting is not the most effective form of communication.
The Devine and the spirit world are hidden. I suspect that if Yeshua had dinner with us and sat right acrossed from us He could not explain it. Somethings beyond our mind and somethings beyond or language. A good example is the topic of Hell. Simple enough a spiritual eternal fiery place of punishment.....LOL....but they did not have a word for it ......things in Heaven that we do not have words for.

So with the Trinity instead of taking the risk of confusing the tar out of us with images of things we cannot understand.....He kept it simple.....Father and Son and Holy Spirit....well Holy Spirit is still a mystery. We maybe shocked when we get to Heaven....over a lot of things......Anyway They kept it simple it was Man that made it confusing and complicated. (We cannot blame women on this one, or most theological errors.) And as unusual it was not about seeking the truth it was about power and intrigue.

I was beginning to read the Bible in 1st grade.....It drew a lot of attention....like it was a miracle. Sister Francine my 1st grade nun had me read a passage in the Bible to the class nearly everyday .....Anyway she use to always tell me.....When trying to understand God, look for the simple and the love. Anyway was it a miracle that I could read that early? Or was it because I had an ability and interest and my great grand parents bought me the whole set of "Weekly Readers" I still have the table top family Catholic Bible that my Greats bought me. It is probably good thing that I did not have a King James Bible....I might have started talking that way.

The Boeing 747 first came out when I was in the 1st grade and science said there were two things that mathmatically should not be able to fly.....the bumble bee and the 747. I learned that from the Weekly Readers.

 

[Grailhunter]

Wow you serve 3 gods?. Hilarious! Larry, Moe, and Curly??? View attachment 74020

You should really get to know what God says in His Word.

He says there is but ONE God

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE

Concerning the trinity... the Father, the Son, and the Spirit... are One!

Pretty hard to explain away something scripture clearly tells us which is... Three are actually One.

In fact.... you and I are three that is one (we are a spirit, we possess a soul, and we live in a body)

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Be sure and go around telling everyone you are 3 different people View attachment 74021

Sorry you cannot count.....You can probably take night classes.

 

[Grailhunter]

Well, that's it then.

BUT
You yourself have stated that the title Christian is misused.
But you don't say HOW.
Maybe by those that do not keep to Christian tenets?

IOW,,,when we tell someone we're Christian...what we believe SHOULD be understood.

Seems that you haven't grasped my OP...
but Ok.

Catch you next time.

That's is because he is Jehovah's Witness and their religion is a lot like Judiasm.....they focus on the Old Testament and Yahweh (even though they do not know His name.) And beleive Yeshua was just a good guy.

 

[Jay Ross]

No, "one" is just a number. It depends what importance you place on the number "one"

 

[Hiddenthings]

Sad indeed.

And the most sad of all, they robbed Jesus from His glory.

A restoration is coming Pro...God is training true shepherds now who are after His Own Heart and they will lead those remaining Jews into the New Covenant.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

I'm not sure why you posted Acts 11:25-26
There had to be a name for those that had been abolished from the synogague and had to begin their own religion/church.
So they were first called Christians.

I consider that the influence of Paul and Barnabas over the period of the year mentioned and the response of the believers in Antioch resulted in a very strong revealing of the Christlike character. Acts 11:25-26 could well be indicating that it was those outside the actual Ekklesia who suggested this title as respect for them, that they were like Christ, not just a convenient label as used today. I was also inferring that the title "Christian" should only be applied to the true disciples of Christ in belief and practice, and I claim that Catholics and many Protestants cannot claim this title. I consider your theme and the title of your thread does not conform to this standard, especially your advocacy of the Trinity.

By the end of the first century and beginning of the second century, the term Catholic began to be used.

I apply the term "Catholic" to the Apostate Church, now headed up by the Pope.

You said that you believed Jesus is the Son of God and indeed He is.
But we'd have to stop and decipher what you mean by this.

I have already stated that I believe that Jesus is a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection. Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35 simply and clearly teach that in the conception / begettal process God was the father of Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit and Mary was his mother. There is no hint in these verses of the transfer of God the Son into the womb of Mary or the creation of a Being with two natures, which would be a contradiction and an impossibility. Jesus did not have two minds Luke 2:40,52.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Lambano]

Seems easy enough...problems begin when we try to explain it.

And do you understand why a Christian would look at this unexplainable dogma and say, "Wait a minute. This doesn't make sense!"?

 

[MatthewG]

It doesn’t make a person better than another for believing it…

There are so many people who wanna uphold their differences as it’s a sign a person is not Christian based on their held beliefs and divisive way.

 

[MatthewG]

All you’re gonna do is just drive people crazy cause of difference of seeing things a certain way. It’s not helpful especially when a person is so adamant about it concerning “You must believe this way or you are not a Christian person.”



It’s simple, you believe in Jesus whom was raised again from the dead by the Holy Spirit of God…

Then let God work and write on your heart and mind.

 

[Lambano]

Here are some of their writings:

Thank you, this is helpful to understand the historical development. However, you do understand that this history is of only one particular strand of Jesus-followers that survived? Other strands, such as the Ebionites (a group that maintained Jewish customs) and the Gnostics did not become institutions and did not survive over time, and their writings were burned. The winners write the history books.

 

[Lambano]

This seems easy to me....
Father is the creator. (He created through Jesus).
Son is our Savior.
Holy Spirit is our helper/paraclete.

We pray to the Father in the name of Jesus.
We pray to Jesus.

God Father is as a father.
God Son is as a brother.

The Holy Spirit guides us and in relationship I'd say that we are empowered by the Holy Spirit and acknowledge the Holy Spirit....but I don't see a relationship that can be compared to either the Father or the Son.

We know that the Father loves us as does Jesus.
We emulate Jesus - He is an example for us.

This is all I can think of right now....

Thank you. This is good.

I note that you pray to both the Father and the Son. That is relating to two persons as "God". I also note that you don't relate to the Holy Spirit in a comparable way "as God". I think it is also significant that you relate to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in ways that differ from each other too: As Father, Brother, Example, Helper. (I hasten to add, this is normal.) Three distinct relationships with persons who are "God". Do you see where people get that "3 Gods" stuff?

In what ways should a human relate to "God"? Things like awe, reverence, and subservience come to mind. (I left out one important relational aspect; let's see if anybody catches it.)

 

[ProDeo]

Thank you, this is helpful to understand the historical development. However, you do understand that this history is of only one particular strand of Jesus-followers that survived. Other strands, such as the Ebionites (a group that maintained Jewish customs) and the Gnostics did not become institutions and did not survive over time, and their writings were burned. The winners write the history books.

The testimonies of the 2 pupils of John the Apostle are convincing enough for me, closer to the fire you can't get it.

In that time there was no NT (or hardly), parchment was expensive, those who could write were rare, those who could write eloquent even more rare, it was hard, very hard to keep the truth. Like you said, fighting the Gnostics.

Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

Hey Paul, why so harsh ?

Paul, you have easy talking with your electronic Bibles! You have no idea how it was! And look at this forum, still divisions!

Me, okay Paul, I am sorry.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Sorry you cannot count.....You can probably take night classes.

Sorry to hear you cannot READ.....You can't take night classes since they require basic reading and comprehension skills so you'll have to enroll back in elementary school maybe even go back to kindergarten!

God's Word is not a lie as some suppose, clearly telling us God is ONE (1 John 5:7)

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE

 

[HealthyShape]

Sorry to hear you cannot READ.....You can't take night classes since they require basic reading and comprehension skills so you'll have to enroll back in elementary school maybe even go back to kindergarten!

God's Word is not a lie as some suppose, clearly telling us God is ONE (1 John 5:7)

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE

1 John 5:7-8
For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

 

[Grailhunter]

Sorry to hear you cannot READ.....You can't take night classes since they require basic reading and comprehension skills so you'll have to enroll back in elementary school maybe even Igo back to kindergarten!

God's Word is not a lie as some suppose, clearly telling us God is ONE (1 John 5:7)

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE

And They are one and we are one in the body of Christ. Yeshua explained the concept of one and made it clear.
As a whole the three in one formula is not biblical. I have some reading for you.....over a hundred scriptures prove the three in one formula for the Trinity false.
For your reading pleasure....
The one God formula for the Trinity skews the meaning of over a hundred scriptures and the storyline of the Gospels….
And then here are over a hundred scriptural reasons why the one God formula for the Trinity is false.
Note: Feel free to verify all scriptural references in your own favorite translation.
This is a topic that is easy to prove because it connects to so many scriptures, which will be referenced directly and or indirectly through this discussion as well as the obvious storyline of the Gospels. The topic as a whole is interesting because it involves the thoughts and beliefs of the Early Church Fathers and the Ecumenical Councils that eventually influenced Catholic and Protestant beliefs.

Most Christian denominations proclaim a belief in the Trinity, and its existence is certain, it is the details that vary. Some define the Trinity as three persons in one God, some turn the perspective around and believe that the Trinity is one God with three aspects. The details vary from one denomination to another. Some reduce the Trinity to a duo, the Holy Spirit merely being the projection of Yahweh or Yeshua’s spirit...not a God….a spirit, different in substance than Yahweh or Yeshua. Part of this was due to not giving the Holy Spirit a name. Holy Spirit is not a name.....they are all holy Spirits to an extent.

Some definitions of the Trinity…
Baptist definition of the Trinity
We believe that there is one, and only one, living and true God and infinite, intelligent Spirit, the Maker and Supreme Ruler of Heaven and Earth

Catholics believe in one single God, who made Himself known to the world (revelation) as three separate persons: God the Father, God the Son (Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit. This is known as the doctrine of the Trinity, and is a fundamental belief for all Catholics.

Pentecostal definition of the Trinity
The doctrine states that there is one God, a singular divine spirit with no distinction of persons….who manifests himself in many ways, including as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This stands in sharp contrast to the doctrine of three distinct, eternal persons posited by Trinitarian theology.

The three persons in one god is very popular and common in the mythology of Paganism.
Or even the one god with three aspects.
Then there are those that believe Yeshua is the “one” and only God... representing three aspects of God or even Christ being the God that created the Heavens and Earth. Which would pretty much invalidate the entire Old Testament and the Apostle’s Creed, where God the Father is the Creator, or even the concept of God being the Father.

Now this one God formula makes you wonder how God the Father fits in! Oddly enough, the “confusion factor” comes from a “qualifying condition” from the 4th century on, the thinking is if it makes no sense or cannot be understood, that is the qualifying factor that it is of God! This is an interesting topic in itself. Debates over what the Trinity meant, and or what it is, has continued throughout the centuries. The winning point always has been and is, that the Gospels clearly document the presence, actions, communications, and movements, of three persons (Gods). But the most commonly accepted doctrine of the Trinity, is that there are three persons in one God, called God, named God, as if the word God is a name. This is the larger intent and underlying reason for this doctrine of the Trinity, and that is to say “one God” not Gods. Because of this the reasons for and explanation of the errors with the one God formula for the Trinity starts with the removal of Yahweh’s name from the Old Testament. This was the event that set the stage for the one God formula and it started with the removal of God’s name from the Old Testament scriptures. That is to change the name of the Yahweh to God. Rather than “God” representing spiritual position, to change the word God to a proper name. At which point they could manipulate it very easily.

The truth is that God the Father's name at one time appeared around 6,800 times in the Old Testament and He was adamant that He created all things was the only one God and no one like Him existed. There are a few words in the OT that refer to Yahweh, like EL and Elohim and at times they referred to locations or holy sites, but they are references not proper names, or they could not say or write them. On the other hand YHWH does refer to the proper name of God the Father and at one time it appeared over 6.800 times in the Old Testament.

The exact pronunciation of Yahweh name is debatable but His named appeared in the oldest Hebrew scriptures then from around 840 BC on, His name was replaced by the Tetragrammaton….YHWH. Then sometime during the second or third century AD the scribes removed the Tetragrammaton from both the Septuagint and the Christian Greek Scriptures and replaced it with Ky'ri.os, "Lord" or The.os', "God."

So then during the Ecumenical Councils they could argue that the Trinity was a functional unnamed trio in the Old Testament ….because God was now all their names!

So now the bumper sticker “IN GOD WE TRUST” can mean any god.
The word Trinity is not in the Bible but it was coined by early Christian writers but they did not define the Trinity as three Gods in one person or entity. So why and when was the doctrine of the one God Trinity proposed? The doctrine of the one God Trinity was created by the Ecumenical Councils to settle irreconcilable arguments within the Council on the nature and differences between God the Father and God the Son. These differences were Irreconcilable but Emperor Constantine commanded an agreement on this issue.

In and out of the Council, Christians had differing beliefs regarding Yahweh and Yeshua. The big topic was about some seeing a big difference in the character and nature and actions of Yahweh and Yeshua. Which was one of the concerns of the Gnostics. Now modern Christians believe as the Ecumenical Councils and the Roman Catholics believed that Gnostics were heretics and preached false beliefs, and that was correct, but some Gnostic beliefs were gaining popularity with Christians towards the end of the 1st century and beyond. The Gnostics believed that the Old Testament God was either evil or insane. So they believed that Yeshua was the Creator God and God Almighty, essentially the only true God.

Now beliefs are ideas and do not necessary commitment to a particular religion as a whole. And some Gnostic beliefs or similar beliefs were accepted by some “mainstream” Christians. Part of this may have been because of the Gospel of John. John’s writings came out towards the end of the 1st century when Christians were thirsty for more information. Now John’s writings seemed to have a Gnostic flavor. Not that He condemned God the Father but promoted Christ as the Creator God and God Almighty. He also embraced the concept of the Logos which was a Greek belief from 6 centuries prior that described a universal knowledge.

The Ecumenical Councils saw Gnostic beliefs as a threat because it was so popular at the time, and of course the beliefs outlined in John’s writings where as Yeshua was the Creator God and God Almighty and these beliefs were popular with some within the Councils so this was some of the irreconcilable arguments within the Councils. On the other hand…..
“Some” being people in the council and outside of the council.

1. There were 3 Gods---Yahweh and Yeshua and the Holy Spirit.
2. There were 2 Gods and the Holy Spirit was not a God but the Spirit of Yahweh.
3. Yahweh was Almighty God Supreme and senior to God the Son Yeshua.
4. Like Yahweh, Yeshua always existed.
5. Yahweh was the creator God of all things.
6. Yeshua was the creator God of all things.
7. Yahweh was the only God.
8. Yahweh impregnated Miriam and Yeshua was conceived and delivered by Miriam. Yahweh begot His Son Yeshua and so Yeshua was a God. All these terms are in the scriptures.
9. Yahweh did not impregnated Miriam, the pre-existing Christ manifested in her womb as an infant. And so Yeshua was the adopted Son of Yahweh.
10. Yahweh and the Holy Spirit was involve with Yeshua’s conception.
11. Yeshua was 100% God and man.
12. Yeshua’s body was human and His Spirit was God.
13. Yehweh and Yeshua were of the same substance.
14. Yahweh and Yeshua were not of the same substance.
15. Yahweh gave all authority over to Yeshua.
16 Yahweh gave all authority over to Yeshua’s ministry.
17. Some saw a difference in the character of Yahweh and Yeshua, and a difference in their nature and actions.
And there was probably more that we do not know about.
Continued....

 

[Grailhunter]

These differences could not be resolved but Emperor Constantine insisted on an agreement, the one Church, one faith thing. But still the differences persisted. So the one God formula was developed…..with a whole slew theological terms to explain it, that are not in the scriptures. The reasoning was that if you imply that God is one person there cannot be a difference in character, nature, and substance and all events are attributed to that one person (God) The problem is the scriptures do not support this by direct explanation or even follow the storyline of events, particularly in the Gospels where Yahweh and Yeshua were interacting and referring to each other and referring to each other in different places. For example Christ said my Father in Heaven….Omnipresent? But Christ did not say, My Father everywhere, it is always My Father in Heaven.

So as it is….

The McKenzie Bible Dictionary explains it this way.... “The Trinity of God is defined by the Church as the belief that in God there are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly or formally a biblical belief.” Which hold true to the fact that the word Trinity does not occur in the Holy Bible.

But issuing the doctrine of the Trinity was not enough because Emperor Constantine believed that all of Christianity should be one belief….one Faith. So the effort of belief control began. This doctrine had to be forced on Christianity in that they would excommunicate or kill anyone that preached anything contrary to the one God Trinity, even to the point that one could not be a Christian or saved if they did not believe in the one God Trinity.

The term and concept of heresy came from the Edict of Roman Emperor Theodosius 380 AD and the Catholic Church adopted the term. And by the way the Catholic Church considered all Protestants heretics. A heretic would be excommunicated by the Church and since the Catholic Church was the state religion of the Roman Empire, heretics were considered enemies of the Empire and could be killed. And you can get into the list of heretics that were killed as time went on as well as the groups that believed differently than the Roman Catholic Church. And yes eventually there were wars between the Catholics and Protestants.

But, as with many of the official doctrines of man, what Rome proposed and what the regional churches and the people believed were many times different than the prescribed doctrines coming out of Rome. The one God formulas for the Trinity was/is abstract and incongruent. So many in that time period did not agree with the one God concept, and many believed in the authoritative position of God the Father. The one God formula was not true or accurate but it did shutdown the arguments by outlawing public objections….

The problem with these doctrines is that as a whole the scriptures as well as the storyline of the Gospels do not support the one God formula. The Gospels clearly show the Father and Son interacting and communicating throughout Christ’s ministry. Even the people that were not Apostles understood that there were individuals Gods in the trinity…. Like the time the Mother of James and John Asked Christ that her sons sit on thrones on either side of Him? And Christ answered that the places at My right side and at My left side are not Mine to give. Whoever My Father says will have those places.” There are several examples like this but one God formula people are so brain washed that they cannot see the forest for the trees.

The Comma Johanneum as it is referred to originated as a common literary explanation for the one God Trinity formula. The first discussion against the one God formula may have been around the 3rd century. Some mention a connection with some of the early Church Fathers, like Cyprian which debated the oneness concepts of the Trinity. It first appeared in written form during the 4th century in the Latin homily Liber Apologeticus, which was probably written by Priscillian of Avila. This theological formula was circulated from then on, but was not accepted, or at least was not quoted by most of the early Church Fathers in which there was a continual disagreement on the construct of the Trinity.

At some point this short summary of the Trinity made its way into the margin notes of some of the manuscripts that were written after the 5th century. Unlike other examples of popular margin notes that made their way into the scriptures, the Comma Johanneum found its way into the verses of the Bible by way of another avenue. After the early 16th century, the Byzantines began to recopy and retranslate the available Greek texts of the New Testament. At this point some of these copies became known as the “Textus Receptus.” ---Erasmus--- It was in some of these that the formula was added and then later included in some of the Bibles. Most notably the King James Version, which relied heavily on these texts. On the 2nd of June 1927, Pope Pius XI decreed that the Comma Johanneum was open to dispute. The updated " Nova Vulgata" edition of the Vulgate, published in 1979 as a result of the Second Vatican Council, does not include the Comma. In the Catholic study Bible I have that was printed around 1960 includes a combination of these two scriptures, with a side note that explains that it was a re-phrasing of the scriptures by the Holy See, as it was his prerogative. But as such are open to debate.

As it happened the Comma Johanneum Addition was much more than a re-translation, or an addition, but rather a replacement of the original scriptures with a theological statement. They kept the verse numbers in sequence so that it would not be as noticeable, but replaced the words.

The scriptures involved are 1st John 5:6-8. The original scriptures read as follows... (Quoting 6 through 8, so it can be read in context)

“6. This is the one who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. 7. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth. 8. And it is the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.”

This was replaced with what came to be called the Comma Johanneum Addition.

6: This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7: For there are three that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8: And there are three that bear witness in Earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

As one can see there is no chance that this is simply a different translation, but rather a removal of the scriptures and an insertion of a known theological statement for an intended purpose. Of course and again, there is no question that the Trinity exists, just that the Bible does not support the commonly explained formula or description of it. And this is the larger problem, if everybody changes the scriptures to what they believe, then we do not get an accurate reading of the Word of God, but instead a denominational sermon of beliefs. The Comma Johanneum Addition is a good illustration of the frustration that some had with trying to promote their beliefs and to what extent they would go to, to promote their beliefs above and over the Bible. This is not a unique observation but rather the opinion of many scholars and most of the well known reference material explains the Trinity as more of a doctrine than a biblical teaching.

Now the term Trinity was coined early on in post biblical Christian writings but the one God formula or definition was not in those writings. Nor the theological terms of the Catholic Church to explain it…..

Equality: The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are equal in the Holy Trinity

Incarnation: Only the Son became incarnate as Jesus Christ

Coeternality: The Son is coeternal with the Father and begotten from his same substance

The Son is completely divine, or homoousion tō Patri, which means "of one substance with the Father"

The council drew up the Nicene Creed, which states that the Son is of the same substance as God the Father

Those that believe in the one God formula cling to a couple scriptures but there are so many scriptures that disagree with this formula directly or by circumstance or congruency of the Gospel storyline. It does happen, people get fascinated by the "one liners" in the Bible and employ imagination to fill in the blanks...it is a good thing that they did not promote the scriptures about hating your mother and father and pretty much your wife and your whole family (Luke 14:46) or the scriptures that says that It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. (Matt. 19:24) Or we would have a religion that only appealed to the poor and they would not consider Christianity unless they hated their mother and father and their whole family. LOL

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[Grailhunter]

The Truth is, the Trinity is not the merging or mixing of three entities into one, like you would a cake mix, nor is it a three headed God. It is a condition and a reality that is beyond our understanding, but how the Trinity manifested itself in the Gospels.....I believe and define that there are three Gods in one Godhead, a Devine unity, but not one.

The Trinity exists simultaneously in an unexplainable spiritual condition of union, that allows for the sharing of traits, principles, powers and abilities, but prevents any possibility of disagreement. Still, this being true, they have their own individual presence, minds, wills, and characters. Three Gods that can sit side by side on three thrones. (I am not going to address spiritual thrones thing, it is just referenced that way in the Bible.) The Trinity makes sense, the scriptures that describe Their activity in the Gospels, make sense. The following discussion includes scriptures that speak of the Trinity as it is referenced in the Gospels. So we are going to put this in motion and as with reality and the truth, it will move through the story of Christ’s mission in the Gospels. The best example of the Trinity we have is how the three Gods interacted with each other during the Gospels. What they said to each other and about each other. Much of the proof comes from the lips of Christ Himself as He describes Himself and His Father as two persons in two different places as well as the communication between the two. Keeping in mind that it is very important to Christianity that Christ is the Son of God the Father.

Now for reasoning and scriptures….

1. If Christ’s throne is on the right hand of God, He is not within God and that position although important is second to God the Father. Mark 16:19 “So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into Heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”

2. If one had to leave before the other could come, as in the case of the Holy Spirit, this would suggest individuality. John 16:7

3. If there is any conversation at all between the three entities; that would indicate some individuality.

4. If the conversation included a request, like Yeshua asking His Father to bypass the cup (so-to-speak); it indicates individuality and hierarchy. Matthew 26:36-46

5. If the conversation is in the form of a pray. For example; Our Father which art in Heaven.....But the Son was standing before them. This indicates individuality and hierarchy.

6. If one God refers to Himself or others refer to Him as the Father and the other God refers to Himself or others refer to Him as the Son; This indicates individuality and hierarchy. This is particularly significant because this is a self defined and self described definition by God Himself. God decided to define their positions as God the Father and God the Son, so we would understand their relationship. God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son…. John 3:16

It was God that chose to describe Himself as a Father, so we could understand our relationship with Him and His relationship with His Son, in human terms. There is a clear authoritative aspect associated with the Father and Son relationship. There is no possible way of mistaking this relationship as equal or the same person. Yeshua was the begotten Son of Yahweh. Yahweh did not begot Himself.

7. Again, for God so love the world that He gave His only begotten Son...John 3:16 There is no part of this verse that suggest that He begot Himself, or sent Himself, or that his Son was Him. The meaning of the verse is that, it took a lot of love for God to offer His real Son as a sacrifice for the world. This verse is talking about two Gods. God the Father and God the Son.

8. If a person can sin against one God worse than the other...as in the case of the un-pardonable sin. This indicates separation of some sort as well as a very special uniqueness in regard to the Holy Spirit. Matthew 12:30-32

9. When Yeshua said, “...the father is greater than I.” John 14:28 --- then this is proof of His understanding of individuality and hierarchy.

10. Then he said, "And do not call anyone on earth your father, for One is your Father, He who is in Heaven. And do not be called leaders, for One is your Leader, that is, Christ." Matthew 23:9-10 This refers to Yahweh as Father and Christ as leader. Similar to other scriptures referring to Christ as the head of the Church.

11. But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. 1st Corinthians 11:3 This clearly defines hierarchal positions.

12. John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (How many ways does this prove two persons, in two places, God the Son referring to His Father as His God.) Matt. 27:46, Mark 15:34, John 20:17

13. There is not a single verse that would indicate or suggest that God the Father was crucified, or that They were crucified together, or that all three were crucified. Christ the God was crucified and ascended to His Father and took his place on a throne...at the right hand of His Father, His God, God Almighty. The storyline does not suggest that Christ is talking to Himself when He is talking to His Father.

14. Matthew 20:20….Mark 10:35…When asked by the mother of John and James if they could sit on the right and the left of Christ in the kingdom to come, One of the things Christ said to her (them) was “....this is not Mine to give....” This would indicate that it was someone else’s to give...another God...Not Himself and higher authority. This point is further exemplified by John 3:35 The Father loves the Son, and hath given all things into His hands. John 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come forth from God, and was going back to God; >>> Definitely defining two persons, giving and receiving occurs between two persons and so does coming from and going back to. These verses indicate hierarchy and individuality. God the Father had the authority to give, you will never see where Yeshua gave authority to His Father.
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[ProDeo]

Sorry to hear you cannot READ.....You can't take night classes since they require basic reading and comprehension skills so you'll have to enroll back in elementary school maybe even go back to kindergarten!

God's Word is not a lie as some suppose, clearly telling us God is ONE (1 John 5:7)

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE

The Comma Johanneum, also known as the Comma Johannine, is a textual variant in regards to 1 John 5:7-8. The word comma simply means “short clause,” and Johanneum means “pertaining to John.” Without the “comma,” 1 John 5:7-8 reads, “For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.” With the “comma,” 1 John 5:7-8 reads, “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.” If the Comma Johanneum was originally part of 1 John 5:7-8, it would be the clearest and most direct reference to the Trinity in the entire Bible.

However, it is highly unlikely that the Comma Johanneum was originally a part of 1 John. None of the oldest Greek manuscripts of 1 John contain the comma, and none of the very early church fathers include it when quoting or referencing 1 John 5:7-8. The presence of the Comma Johanneum in Greek manuscripts is actually quite rare until the 15th century A.D. It is primarily found in Latin manuscripts. While some of the Latin manuscripts containing the Comma Johanneum are ancient, the Comma Johanneum did not appear in the original Latin Vulgate written by Jerome.

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What is the Comma Johanneum (1 John 5:7-8)? | GotQuestions.org

What is the Comma Johanneum (1 John 5:7-8)? Should the Comma Johanneum be in 1 John 5:7-8?

www.gotquestions.org

1 John 5:7 because three are who are testifying in the heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these--the three--are one;

Meaning the strike-out part is one of those false additions.

 

[Grailhunter]

15. If the conversation includes an element of surprise, like when Yeshua was on the cross and asked His Father why He had forsaken Him. This would be strong evidence of individuality. Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:4

16. If the conversation indicates disparity of location and movement between the two deities, such as ascended to my Father, I came forth from the Father, or was sent by the Father, or because I go to the Father, this would all indicate individuality, hierarchy, and different location.

17. If one knows something that the other does not, like in Matt. 24:36 where Yeshua said, He did not know when the “end of the age” would occur, only the Father knew. This definitely indicates individuality and is conclusive proof that we are not talking about a single mind.

18. If the Son was sent by the Father. This indicates individuality and hierarchy of authority. One person sent somewhere by another. You will never read that Yeshua sent the Father anywhere.

19. If Christ said, (John 5:30) “I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.” The statement regarding the will of the one Who sent Him, occurs in other verses. John 6:38 & 39 Matt 12:50. Then there is Matthew 26:36-46 Mark 14:36 “And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.” This is a request from one person to another of higher authority and a designation of two separate wills... “not what I will, but what thou wilt.” The wills and minds of two Gods, clearly defined in words and actions with a clear show of respect from Son to Father agreeing to subject Himself to the will of the Father.

20. The oldest of the Christian Creeds is called the Old Roman Creed 2nd century…

I believe in God the Father almighty; and in Christ Jesus His only Son, our Lord, Who was born from the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, Who under Pontius Pilate was crucified and buried, on the third day rose again from the dead, ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, whence he will come to judge the living and the dead; and in the Holy Spirit, the holy Church, the remission of sins, the resurrection of the flesh,

21. And Christ said this while He walked the earth...But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven" Matthew 10:33 God the Father and God the Son. Two persons in two different places and the Son denying someone before His Father.

22. “The My Father verses” are the most prevalent and best examples of Yeshua’s relationship with Yahweh. Over fifty times in the Gospels Yeshua refers to Yahweh as “My Father.” As far as understanding the interconnecting relationship between Yeshua and Yahweh these verses are very important to understand in content, context, and perspective. In most of these verses the differences between Yahweh and Yeshua are expressed, either by hierarchy, authority, interaction, will, mind, movement, communication, or physical location.

23. In John 2:16, Yeshua indicates that the Temple is His Father’s house .....not His. Christ never indicates that the Temple belongs to Him, the temple belongs to another. Nor did Christ ever suggest that after He left they should worship Him in the Temple.

24. In John 14:2 Christ tells of a place that would await the Apostles. He says, “In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.” Note that He is not saying, His house. In 14 of the “My Father” verses, Yeshua refers to Yahweh as the Father in Heaven, precisely written, “Father which is in Heaven.” In 7 of these verses He is referring to His Father in Heaven, worded “Father in Heaven.” So Christ was standing on Earth referring to God the Father in Heaven, two different places.

25. In John 5:7 Christ says, “And the Father who sent Me, He has borne witness of Me. And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form. You have neither heard His voice at anytime, nor seen His form.” In this verse one should understand that it takes someone else to bare witness of another, and the voice and form they were hearing and seeing then, was not that of God the Father. He was not baring witness of Himself.

26. In Matthew 18:10, where Christ was warning not to offend the “little ones”....Christ indicates that their Angels constantly behold the face of Yahweh...in Heaven. Now surely, there is an understanding of the concept of omni-presence, but if you notice, Christ is not saying, they behold My face, or Our faces everywhere. Throughout the storyline of the Gospel, Christ makes it clear that He and His Father are in two different places. Christ’s overall mission on Earth is to fulfill the will of God which is Yahweh....and He makes it clear that Yahweh, His Father sent Him. Yeshua never said in the Gospels that He sent Himself or came on His own behalf, or was doing His own will, or begot Himself. Over 40 times Christ says in the Gospels that His Father sent Him. This denotes the higher authority of the Father and that His Father is another person at a different place.

In several verses Christ indicates that God the Father gives or appoints certain things to Him. To appoint or give is an indication of hierarchy, authority, and an indication of two positions, given and received. You will not find a scripture where Christ says He sent the Father somewhere, or that the Father was doing His will, or He gave authority to the Father, it is not His position to do any of that. Other examples, Christ would not say, I gave Myself, all things, nor would He say that He loved Himself.

27. In John 10:17, Christ says, “For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.” The same is true of honor or glory.

28. Honor is a heartfelt expression from one person to another. Christ does not honor Himself or love Himself. John 8:54, “If I honor myself, my honor is nothing: it is my Father that honoreth me; of whom ye say, that He is your God. All three of these expressions describe something happening from one...to... another.

29. Apostolic Perspective. There is a continual reference to Father and Son and a designation of Yahweh as God the Father in Heaven while Christ was on earth. And if you look closely the scriptures give distinctions to God as the Father and Christ as Lord in the same sentence. As in the benediction of some of books in the NT...2nd Corinthians, Ephesians, and Philippians.

30. 1st Timothy 6:13
“I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate.”

Matthew 5:16
Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 5:48
Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Matthew 6:1
Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 7:11
If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!

Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matthew 10:32
Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 10:33
But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

Continued....