Theological Examination of the Rapture in Relation to the Great Tribulation

[JLB]

Nice try.

Just omit the verses that DESTROY ;
1) One coming
2) the words of Jesus as to the timing of the rapture.
3) the harvest dynamic
4) the purpose of the trib
5) the 2 wives
6) romans 11 prophecy of the Jews grafted back in.
7) the FACT All rapture verses are opposite your supposed setting!!!!

And more I don't have time for.

You are trying ( as all postribbers) to find some "smoking gun", some " one verse miracle", that will shove all the verses destroying that doctrine, off the table.

News flash... those verses are not going away no matter how crafty those adherents get.

Look.
ÀNY ONE DYNAMIC of the pretrib rapture verses destroys that fragile hope that there is no pretrib rapture.
The ac killing ALL REFUSING THE MARK, THAT ONE THING, destroys your ENTIRE DEAL.
Just that one thing!!!!
The fact that Jesus depicted 3 time comings. That fact alone destroys your entire deal!!!!
That one thing!!!!!
The fact that Noah, Lot, and the baby Jesus were gathered Pre tribulation....that fact alone destroys your entire deal.
( Remember how postribbers used to have some some false notion that the wicked are always gathered first.???
That doctrine annihilated by myself years ago. So now you hardly ever see anybody try to bring up that that silly farce.

Another dying non issue is the one where you guys, invoke all these pretrib rapture dead men of the 1930's, and hope futiley, to ascribe our doctrine originating in them ,Pretending that without these dead men we would have no standing.

Then I exposed the hypocrisy.
Postribbers celebrate that their doctrine is From dead men of the early church.
Actually making the FONDATION AND BANNER of yalls doctrine coming from men.

So now every time that ascribing of men comes up, they get reminded of their gross, blatant, hypocrisy and false foundation.

False doctrine always gets destroyed by the bible.

Unfortunately for you I used scripture which you denied, and all you used is opinion.


Jesus taught the resurrection precedes the rapture.

Jesus taught the rapture and resurrection both occurred at His coming.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


The resurrection and rapture occur on the last day, not 7 years before the last day.


The Antichrist is destroyed by His coming.


So no, the coming of the Lord certainly doesn’t take place before the tribulation.

 

[JLB]

QUOTE
""So no, the coming of the Lord certainly doesn’t take place before the tribulation""

....and yet Jesus depicted it as exactly taking place before the trib.
Take it up with Him.
He said it....exposing your false non biblical beliefs.
Postrib rapture is so busted

I leave you guys in ashes and you act like you have some truthful standing.
Omitting and changing verses for a doctrine is shameful

Still waiting for the scripture that says the coming of the Lord is BEFORE the tribulation.


Let me know when you find it.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Still waiting for the scripture that says the coming of the Lord is BEFORE the tribulation.


Let me know when you find it.

Let me know if you honestly read them.
That is easy.
Matt 24
"BEFORE THE FLOOD, ONE TAKEN, ONE LEFT"
Noah, lot, and tge baby Jesus gathered pretrib.
Jesus said " because you have kept the word of my testimony, I will also keep you from the hour of trial about to come upon the entire world "
Jesus said, "pray that you will be able to escape the things about to come upon the earth and stand before the Son of man "

Acts 1 "like manner"
(Your doctrine has opposite setting.)

Matthew 25 has the rapture vividly depicted in a PRETRIB SETTING.
YOUR one coming debunked solidly.

Plus more....but you won't read them.

 

[JLB]

Let me know if you honestly read them.
That is easy.
Matt 24
"BEFORE THE FLOOD, ONE TAKEN, ONE LEFT"
Noah, lot, and tge baby Jesus gathered pretrib.
Jesus said " because you have kept the word of my testimony, I will also keep you from the hour of trial about to come upon the entire world "
Jesus said, "pray that you will be able to escape the things about to come upon the earth and stand before the Son of man "

Nothing here about the second coming of Christ being before the great tribulation.

Here is the truth the scriptures so plainly teach us.


“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:29-30

 

[rebuilder 454]

Nothing here about the second coming of Christ being before the great tribulation.

Here is the truth the scriptures so plainly teach us.


“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:29-30

Both sides believe the second coming is after the trib.

In your doctrine, YOU NEED Noah gathered POST FLOOD.
Your doctrine NEEDS lot gathered post fire.
Your doctrine NEEDS the baby Jesus to stay in Israel and NOT BE GATHERED TO EGYPT.
Your doctrine needs a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SETTING for the rapture.

THE SETTING is normal life, every day life, commerce, planning for the future, and marriage.

Your position is the rapture happens in a destroyed earth and millions of Christians slaughtered and if you think that is "every day , normal life",then I got a couple of bridges to sell you..

No postribber will ever address the rapture happens in everyday life.
Flat out bizarre to come up with that .
But through OMISSION, your plan works in your circles.

I posted 2 escape verses( which no postribber ever embraces) and those verses POINTS TO a pretrib rapture.

Are you being obtuse by not honestly addressing the 2 escape verses?

Remember, your doctrine has us pretribbers as evil and "escapist" for embracing Jesus words and bothering to honestly address scripture.

 

[JLB]

Both sides believe the second coming is after the trib.

In your doctrine, YOU NEED Noah gathered POST FLOOD.
Your doctrine NEEDS lot gathered post fire.
Your doctrine NEEDS the baby Jesus to stay in Israel and NOT BE GATHERED TO EGYPT.
Your doctrine needs a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SETTING for the rapture.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:29-30

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


Both Jesus and Paul teach the same thing.

You attempt to "muddy" the water with supposed references to Noah, or Lot, or baby Jesus, is futile in the face of plain and clear words from Jesus Christ.


The Resurrection and Rapture take place at the Second Coming of Christ.

 

[rebuilder 454]

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:29-30

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


Both Jesus and Paul teach the same thing.

You attempt to "muddy" the water with supposed references to Noah, or Lot, or baby Jesus, is futile in the face of plain and clear words from Jesus Christ.


The Resurrection and Rapture take place at the Second Coming of Christ.

Jesus muddied the water????
"As in the days of Noah, so shall the coming of the Son of man be."

See what your teachers did to you?
They have you believing that Jesus muddied up his own bible.



What is comical is your teachers taught you a pretrib rapture verse in that ONE AND ONLY verse you keep posting...( but never read what it says).
That Is comical.
Here is your one and only verse without your omissions:
Mat 24
"29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Read it slowly, because the ONLY THING you see is the word "after"

For the first time, take off the postrib goggles and read it.

IT SAYS ANGELS GATHER IN HEAVEN AFTER THE TRIB.

HELLO...that means the saints in heaven after the trib are gathered TO THE WHITE HORSES OF REV 19.....THE SECOND COMING.

Read it like it says for the first time.
Every time you post that verse YOU ARE POINTING TO THE PRETRIB RAPTURE

You guys have been duped so badly.

Pssst.. In the rapture JESUS GATHERS FROM EARTH.

The bible rules

 

[JLB]

Jesus muddied the water????
"As in thecdays of Noah, so shall the coming of the Son of man be."

No, you muddied the water.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:29-30

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

Both Jesus and Paul teach the same thing.

The Resurrection and Rapture take place at the Second Coming of Christ.


The Day of the Lord will not come as a thief in the night... for the Church.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No, you muddied the water.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:29-30

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

Both Jesus and Paul teach the same thing.

The Resurrection and Rapture take place at the Second Coming of Christ.


The Day of the Lord will not come as a thief in the night... for the Church.

Lol.
You omitted what Jesus said concerning his coming before the flood.

Then you tried to bring in verses to help your position when Jesus showed you the impossibility of your doctrine.

Read carefully please.
Your one and only theoretical postrib rapture verse ( that you omit the entirety of What Jesus said..)..;

Mat 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Notice THE ONLY thing your doctrine gets out of it is "Jesus returns after the trib"
Ahem...nobody says he doesn't.

But why omit the truth???????

The following,is what your doctrine totally falls apart over.
( the rest of Jesus prophecy ,that no postribber can process. So crystal clear but for some reason postrib teachers are blinded):

Mat 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus in heaven, Stays in heaven, and sends his angels in heaven, to collect the saints that are in heaven, so they can get on the white horses. Which is the second coming of revelation nineteen.

But you can not process that for some reason.
( ahem... "muddy it up" it to say ,Jesus gathers from earth)
That is simply a fact. The bible to you , is muddied up.

But it gets worse for your doctrine because the pretrib rapture verses in mat 24 and Luke 17 are so vivid and clear your doctrine has only 2 options.
Change them, or omit them.

Might be time to jettison that postrib rapture theory.
At this late hour, it is essential to embrace the bible, not some theory that thrives on omission

 

[rebuilder 454]

Matt 24 the second coming
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

As clear as glass.
After the trib, Angels gather in heaven, the
Saints that are in heaven also.
All 3 are in heaven, Jesus, the angels, and the saints.
Jesus does no gathering,angels do the gathering of saints that are there already in heaven ....so clear and so vivid.

The following is The rapture, pretrib, as JESUS Himself prophesied:
Mat 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Wow.
What clarity by JESUS.!!!!!!
Jesus tells us when the rapture is, and who gets raptured, and who stays behind, and commands us to be watchful for the pre tribulation rapture

So clear.
Nobody could possibly miss it?

But wait ...Jesus is not done, because he brought in MORE WITNESSES, to make sure we all get ready for the pretrib rapture!!!
Luke 17:
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Huh?
Normal life, then one taken, one left?
Before the trib ??
Half taken????

Hmmm.
That is EXACTLY the pretrib rapture position!!!!!.

What a dilemma for that postrib rapture doctrine!!!!
Postribs need that to read :
"No normal life, no commerce, no planning for the future, but saints running from cave to cave, and then we have God confused because God can not rapture anyone until the white horses ( postrib coming in power and great glory).... and then God is confused by suggesting half the world is wicked and is taken someplace, but the saints stay behind for some strange reason".
Really??? You guys actually think that????
Or....did that doctrine take you to a bizarre place that none of you actually played out what is clearly written?????

Postrib rapture doctrine is so far off it is actually bizarre and comical.

 

[JLB]

Lol.
You omitted what Jesus said concerning his coming before the flood.

‘I gave you two clear scripturals that pertain to the coming of the Lord, and the resurrection and rapture.


I’m not discussing the flood.


There is only one Second Coming.


so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear
a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:27

 

[rebuilder 454]

‘I gave you two clear scripturals that pertain to the coming of the Lord, and the resurrection and rapture.


I’m not discussing the flood.


There is only one Second Coming.


so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear
a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:27

Huh?
Jesus said before the flood.
The second coming of rev 19 is before the flood? ??
One gathered one left behind before the flood?

 

[JLB]

Huh?
Jesus said before the flood.
The second coming of rev 19 is before the flood? ??
One gathered one left behind before the flood?

‘Please post the scripture, not a vague reference.

I won’t to examine the subject matter.


What I posted is the topic of the coming of the Lord, and the resurrection and rapture.

 

[rebuilder 454]

‘Please post the scripture, not a vague reference.

I won’t to examine the subject matter.


What I posted is the topic of the coming of the Lord, and the resurrection and rapture.

Mat 24:
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Wow.
What clarity by JESUS.!!!!!!
Jesus tells us when the rapture is, and who gets raptured, and who stays behind, and commands us to be watchful for the pre tribulation rapture

So clear.
Nobody could possibly miss it?

 

[JLB]

Jesus tells us when the rapture is, and who gets raptured, and who stays behind, and commands us to be watchful for the pre tribulation rapture

So clear.
Nobody could possibly miss it?

Yes, it’s clear.

• Immediately after the tribulation of those days… and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

After the tribulation, at His coming the resurrection and rapture take place.


“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31



For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


The resurrection and rapture occur at His coming.

His coming is after the tribulation.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Mat 24:
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Wow.
What clarity by JESUS.!!!!!!
Jesus tells us when the rapture is, and who gets raptured, and who stays behind, and commands us to be watchful for the pre tribulation rapture

So clear.
Nobody could possibly miss it?

How can you miss the true meaning of these words of Jesus. These verses do not teach a secret pre-tribulation rapture. Jesus is not talking about people suddenly flying away while others stay behind. He is giving a warning about judgment, just like in the days of Noah.

In Noah’s time the people who were taken were the ones destroyed by the flood. The ones left were Noah and his family who stayed alive and safe. Jesus uses this picture to show that when He returns, many people will be caught unprepared and will be taken in judgment, not taken to heaven.

Jesus says they were eating and drinking and living normally until the flood came and took them all away. Then He says His coming will be the same. Taken does not mean rescued. It means swept away by judgment. Left means spared, like Noah.

Two in the field. One taken, one left. Two grinding. One taken, one left. It simply means that when Jesus comes, some will be judged and some will be saved. It has nothing to do with a secret escape before trouble. Jesus never taught such a thing.

He ends by saying Watch, because you do not know the hour. The meaning is that His return will be sudden and many will not be ready, so we must keep our hearts clean, obey Him, and walk in His light every day.

So these verses point to judgment, not a pre-tribulation rapture. They warn us to stay faithful, just as Noah did.

 

[rebuilder 454]

How can you miss the true meaning of these words of Jesus. These verses do not teach a secret pre-tribulation rapture. Jesus is not talking about people suddenly flying away while others stay behind. He is giving a warning about judgment, just like in the days of Noah.

In Noah’s time the people who were taken were the ones destroyed by the flood. The ones left were Noah and his family who stayed alive and safe. Jesus uses this picture to show that when He returns, many people will be caught unprepared and will be taken in judgment, not taken to heaven.

Jesus says they were eating and drinking and living normally until the flood came and took them all away. Then He says His coming will be the same. Taken does not mean rescued. It means swept away by judgment. Left means spared, like Noah.

Two in the field. One taken, one left. Two grinding. One taken, one left. It simply means that when Jesus comes, some will be judged and some will be saved. It has nothing to do with a secret escape before trouble. Jesus never taught such a thing.

He ends by saying Watch, because you do not know the hour. The meaning is that His return will be sudden and many will not be ready, so we must keep our hearts clean, obey Him, and walk in His light every day.

So these verses point to judgment, not a pre-tribulation rapture. They warn us to stay faithful, just as Noah did.

Jesus has half taken, half left be Behind.
in Jesus analogy.

In your theory, you are placing earth's populations as half wicked and half born again.

It gets even worse for that theory of "half earth's population wicked, half righteous" theory of postrib teachers.
Because Jesus makes yet another analogy of " half taken, half left behind" a few sentences later.

In the virgin parable about 10 sentences later, in thecsame breath, Jesuscsays half will be taken, half left behind.
There is not a single postrib teacher that can reconcile that dynamic.
ALL OF YOU fail because there IS NO SUCH THING AS HALF EARTHS POPULATION RIGHTEOUS AND HALF WICKED.
You guys painted yourself into a corner.

Look, you deal is 100% impossible.

You have , in your theory a satan worshipper in a bed with a born again saint.
In EVERY ANALOGY of the one taken, you have a wicked fellowshipping with a born again believer.
SMH.
But play it out. Your theory is that believers are running from cave to cave, running from the AC , ALL THE WAY THROUGH THE 7 YR GT, and inspite of the bible saying all take the mark, your theory claims you guys do not get caught.
AND NOW YOU CLAIM THOSE WITH THE MARK, SLEEP AND FELLOWSHIP WITH BELIEVERS????????
Just plain goofy.

QUOTE
""Jesus says they were eating and drinking and living normally until the flood came and took them all away. Then He says His coming will be the same. Taken does not mean rescued. It means swept away by judgment. Left means spared, like Noah.""

Reread it.
BEFORE THE FLOOD, ONE TAKEN, ONE LEFT.

That word "before" is BLATANTLY MISSING, In every postrib teacher and workbook.
You should ask yourself why EVERY postribber celebrates ALL THE RAPTURE OMISSIONS.

REALLY????
You guys actually celebrate the omissions??????

I really don't get it.
Inspite of God's word you cling to a false theory.

Wow.