Lambano
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Is God Magnanimous? - (as opposed to tyrannical)
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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Does the bible say He is "magnanimous" somewhere or are you just making up your own feel-good doctrine like so many do? Of course anyone is free to make up their own religion if they want to, but man-made religions cannot save anyone's soul.
And even if it does say somewhere that God is magnanimous, we need to look at all of scripture, the whole counsel of God, and not look at one truth in a blanket and isolated way to the exclusion of other truths. ...because then it would not be the truth. There are so many scriptures that do not seem to fit the "magnanimous" definition....such as "to avenge is mine sayeth the Lord", and "God will not be mocked", and that some are "like the beasts that perish, made to be taken and destroyed" and "behold both the goodness and severity of God", etc, etc.
The Lord may arguably be magnanimous towards someone at certain times or under certain circumstances, but that doesn't mean we can make a blanket doctrine out of that to say He is always magnanimous to everyone at all times and in all circumstances. He has created human beings and this world a certain way........it was not created for sin......sin has "natural" consequences presided over by He who created us. God has shown His magnanimity (if you want to use that word) in the sacrifice of His Son...greater love has no man than that.....for whosoever would believe/receive Him and then go on to follow and serve Him in sincerity, not go on in wilful disobedience and sin.
Behold
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See The Cross of Christ for the answer to your question.
God does not take "revenge".
God deals out justice and mercy.
He also takes vengeance against evil by executing righteous judgement against it.
God is "longsuffering", not willing that any should perish"..
This is why an unforgiven sinner wakes up every day of their life, and still has the opportunity to trust in Christ, receive forgiveness, and meet God as Heavenly Father, instead of Eternal Judge.
God repays evil with kindness, but not forever, unless the evil one has been redeemed before they die.
As I said, I stumbled upon a word I rarely see used. Magnanimous.
And I provided a definition.
You claim it is unbiblical if you like.
But that would be a claim that God is NOT:
Highly moral, especially in showing kindness or forgiveness,
as in overlooking insults or not seeking revenge.
You, and most of Christianity claims that God is a tyrannical monster.
I choose to disagree.
Was He showing kindness and forgiveness when He drowned all on Earth but 8 "making them an example"?
Genesis 7:17-24
17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. 21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: 22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. 23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.
But you won't even admit that the Bible is God's Word! You won't admit that Jesus warned us of the everlasting Hell Fire!
But you will learn. Everyone will learn, now or in Hell.
Psalm 111:10
10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom:
God gives man freedom to exercise his will. That is the opposite of tyrannical.
Did you read what I said about "natural" consequences of sin? AKA curses as opposed to blessing. Do we still see curses operating today in individuals, families, cities and nations? Does that make God tyrannical? We also see or have seen blessing operating. Our society for example seems less blessed than it was a generation or two ago...wonder why that could be.
How do you balance out the idea of magnanimity with other things that speak to OTHER ASPECTS of God's character and ways in the bible? I gave you some examples but there are many more.
Unfortunately, yes, I agree.
Trying to be more "righteous-seeming" than God Himself was Lucifer's mistake and proceeds from pride and self-righteousness. It is also a back-handed accusation against the Lord, implying that He is not righteous when He judges or when He gives us boundaries.
Amen. And it also says "the fear of the Lord is to hate sin", especially our own. And "Who does God esteem? He who trembles at His word.".....takes Him and His word seriously, not treating Him with "lightness", lightly.
Gal 6:7-8
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Sin, disobedience, unbelief and deception all have consequences. They are like cancers in what was once created to be a healthy body. God didn’t create this world or us for sin and iniquity. And if anyone has a “cancer”, they need to not embrace and excuse it but seek treatment from the Great Physician! Or consequences could “naturally” ensue. That doesn't make God a tyrant, especially when He has selflessly provided the remedy in His Son.
He is merciful (magnanimous?) to the humble and contrite, not to those who are proud, defiant and impenitent. Come on now (speaking to @St. SteVen ), “God is not mocked” means He is not a fool or a doormat to be walked all over!
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
I am reminded of Marcion of Sinope, who in the 2nd century found the God of the Old Testament to be tyrannical and the God of the New Testament to be magnanimous. He concluded that they must not be the same God!
I wonder... does the same problem causes you any cognitive dissonance?
Victim lit on fire in horrifying Chicago train attack identified
The 26-year old victim set on fire by a career criminal with 72 prior arrests while aboard a Chicago L train last week was identified as Bethany MaGee.
13wham.com
"It is devastating that a career criminal with 72 PRIOR ARRESTS is now accused of attacking 26-year-old Bethany MaGee on Chicago’s L train, and setting her on fire," Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy wrote.
"Chicago’s carelessness is putting the American people at risk. No one should ever have to fear for their life on the subway," Duffy continued.
Which is righteous, to judge evil, or to allow it to continue?
This judge was "magnanimous" to the criminal, which was tyranny to the victim.
More likely I blame biased translation of the New Testament for that two-faced god the church presented us with.
Amen.. There seems to be two evils in the land these days brother. One is that governments/judicial systems are trying to be the church in showing mercy, and the church is being involved in government trying to be a law maker and enforcer. Things are mixed up......governments are supposed to punish evil-doers and the church is supposed to be merciful, not the other way around.Victim lit on fire in horrifying Chicago train attack identified
The 26-year old victim set on fire by a career criminal with 72 prior arrests while aboard a Chicago L train last week was identified as Bethany MaGee.
"It is devastating that a career criminal with 72 PRIOR ARRESTS is now accused of attacking 26-year-old Bethany MaGee on Chicago’s L train, and setting her on fire," Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy wrote.
"Chicago’s carelessness is putting the American people at risk. No one should ever have to fear for their life on the subway," Duffy continued.
Which is righteous, to judge evil, or to allow it to continue?
This judge was "magnanimous" to the criminal, which was tyranny to the victim.
Not at all. The Lord doesn't change. The judgment/condemnation (curse) of the old covenant was to prepare the way for the new covenant of mercy. You see, there can be no mercy except that there also be judgment, otherwise mercy isn't mercy. Think about that. Mercy means not giving out the judgment/condemnation that is RIGHTFULLY deserved and would otherwise JUSTLY be meted out.
God will either judge/condemn or show mercy, depending on the situation.....eg, humility, contrition, Godly sorrow and FAITH are conditions that will attract God's mercy. The bible says to "behold both the goodness and severity of God". And there certainly were faithful people written about in the old testament who were recipients of God's favour and mercy.......Abel, Noah, Enoch, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, Namaan, Ruth, Deborah, Abigail, Joshua, the prophets, etc, etc.
Can you be a bit more specific? Where exactly has a translation done this? Can you provide some examples?
Kolasis - William Barclay
The word for punishment is kolasis. The word was originally a gardening word, and its original meaning was pruning trees. In Greek there are two words for punishment, timoria and kolasis, and there is a quite definite distinction between them. Aristotle defines the difference; kolasis is for the sake of the one who suffers it; timoria is for the sake of the one who inflicts it. Plato says that no one punishes (kolazei) simply because he has done wrong - that would be to take unreasonable vengeance (timoreitai). We punish (kolazei) a wrong-doer in order that he may not do wrong again (Protagoras 323 E). Clement of Alexandria (Stromateis 4.24; 7.16) defines kolasis as pure discipline, and timoria as the return of evil for evil. Aulus Gellius says that kolasis is given that a man may be corrected; timoria is given that dignity and authority may be vindicated (The Attic Nights7.14). The difference is quite clear in Greek and it is always observed. Timoria is retributive punishment. Kolasis is always given to amend and to cure.
“The word aionios is difficult to translate. It is used in the Old Testament* to describe Israel’s possession of the holy land (Genesis 17.8; 48.4); Aaron’s priesthood (Numbers 25,13); regulations about blood in the sacrifices and about the day of atonement (Leviticus 3.17; 16.34); great mountains and hills (Habakkuk 3.6). Now aion literally means an age, and aionios is literally age-long. In all the cases we have quoted the translation is everlasting or for ever, but in every case the thing described is a human thing, and will sometime come to an end. In every case aionios means lasting for a very long time; it can even mean lasting as long as the present world lasts; but it does not mean lasting for ever and ever throughout eternity.
“The Greek usage of aionios is even more suggestive. Plato in the Laws (10.12) says that body and soul are indestructible (anolethron), but they are not eternal (aionios) like the gods. In the Timaeus he says that time as we know it in this world is formed on the model of the nature which is aionios, eternal. The fact is that in Greek aionios can properly only describe that which is divine; in the true sense of the term only God is aionios. Aionios kolasis is therefore the disciplinary punishment, designed for the cure of men, which may last throughout many ages, and which only God can give.
“I can therefore be seen that the phrase in Matthew 25.46 does not commit us to a doctrine of eternal punishment in the sense in which it is usually taken. It may well describe a disciplinary, curative punishment, and it certainly describes the punishment which only God can inflict.”
~William Barclay, The Apostle's Creed, pg 189-190
Lambano
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