Is the sea in Revelation 8:8-9 literal or not ?
Is the sea in Revelation 16:3 literal or not ?
1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 is not talking about world peace and safety
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Is the sea in Revelation 16:3 literal or not ?
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
@marks @Spiritual Israelite @Scott Downey @Truth7t7
There seems to be a contradiction of Scripture with "peace and safety", however we must absorb all the Truth Spoken by the LORD on this subject.
#1 - @marks = "Immediately after the Tribulation..........I Come" = DIRECT COMMANDMENT and PROPHECY of the LORD
JESUS says to us @marks = "If you love ME keep MY commandments"
#2 - @Spiritual Israelite = "Matt ch24 = Noah
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. And they were oblivious until the flood came and swept them all away. So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.
#3 - @Scott Downey = "Just as when a person wins the "Mega Millions" is ELATED until they end up BROKE on the street.
Many who have won the BIG JACKPOT/Mega Millions/Powerball, end up loosing everything in the END.
Just BEFORE Judgment is about to hit = "Adam and Eve hid themselves from the LORD after they sinned"
Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”
There seems to be a contradiction of Scripture with "peace and safety", however we must absorb all the Truth Spoken by the LORD on this subject.
#1 - @marks = "Immediately after the Tribulation..........I Come" = DIRECT COMMANDMENT and PROPHECY of the LORD
JESUS says to us @marks = "If you love ME keep MY commandments"
#2 - @Spiritual Israelite = "Matt ch24 = Noah
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. And they were oblivious until the flood came and swept them all away. So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.
#3 - @Scott Downey = "Just as when a person wins the "Mega Millions" is ELATED until they end up BROKE on the street.
Many who have won the BIG JACKPOT/Mega Millions/Powerball, end up loosing everything in the END.
Just BEFORE Judgment is about to hit = "Adam and Eve hid themselves from the LORD after they sinned"
Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”
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Of course those are literal seas
Not all seas are literal in Revelation
Example Rev 17
1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying [a]to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, 2 with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.”
3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of [b]her fornication. 5 And on her forehead a name was written:
MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS
OF THE EARTH.
6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.
The Meaning of the Woman and the Beast
7 But the angel said to me, “Why did you marvel? I will tell you the [c]mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. 8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to [d]perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and [e]yet is.9 “Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. 10 There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. 11 The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to [f]perdition.
12 “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”
15 Then he said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. 16 And the ten horns which you [g]saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18 And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”
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And this Revelation 21, does not necessarily imply the new earth has no oceans or seas.
Seas in this context is the same as Rev 17:15
Just as sometimes seas are oceans of water, sometimes seas refer to nations of peoples and tongues, their politics, world governments, etc....
If God wants the new earth to have fishes, crabs, etc... seas the new earth will have.
I figure the new earth will have living animals on it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
You may want to examine what you said here!!!
The LORD gave us a commandment = "After the Tribulation...I Come"
The HOLY SPIRIT speaking thru John the Baptist, identified the Bride of Christ = John 3:27-29
John replied, “A man can receive only what is given him from heaven. You yourselves can testify that I said, ‘I am not the Christ, but am sent ahead of Him.’ The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom stands and listens for him, and is overjoyed to hear the bridegroom’s voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete.
The Apostle John identified the Bride of Christ = John 1:9-13
The LORD, thru an Angel, identifies the Bride of Christ =Revelation 21:9
Then one of the seven angels with the seven bowls full of the seven final plagues came and said to me,
“Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
Per this example, that doesn't depict peace and safety if they are hiding in fear of the wrath of the Lamb. When they are saying peace and safety, they are not fearing the wrath of the Lamb at that point. In 1 Thessalonians 5:3, peace and saftety precede the DOTL. In Revelation 6 it is the DOTL that is in view per the 6th seal. Thus, per the 6th seal, the time of peace and safety has passed. Per the 6th seal they are obviously hiding for a reason
Compare with 1 Thessalonians 5:3
1 Thessalonians 5:3 A) For when they shall say, Peace and safety; B) then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
During A), B) is not paralleling A), B) is putting an end to A). Therefore, the 6th seal is meaning during B), not during A).
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Post 42 gives clarity to all three aspects of His Second Coming
i must step out = will be back in an hour
SHALOM
Revelation 17, the waters upon which the woman sits are explained in the text of Revelation 17 as to what the waters represent.
Differently, in Revelation 21, there is no such explanation in the text of "no more sea" as meaning anything other than literal sea.
Totally preposterous that literal seas can be meant. Why then did God create seas to begin with? Have you not compared with Ezekiel 47? Clearly., there are seas still existing. How can the era of time Ezekiel 47:8-12 is involving not be the era of time Revelation 22:1-2 is involving?
LOL. Don't try to tell me what to do. You responded as if you've never read 1 Thessalonians 5, so that's why I said what I did. There is absolutely nothing written in 1 Thessalonians 5 in relation to the conditions of the world in terms of there being world peace and safety before the day of the Lord. Instead, the context of people saying "peace and safety" is in relation to people being in spiritual darkness, not in relation to the status of the world. So, the context is in relation to each person who is in spiritual darkness thinking they are spiritually at peace and safe from God's wrath. When the day of the Lord's return comes as a thief in the night, they will find out that they are not spiritually at peace and safe from God's wrath when "sudden destruction" comes up on them as a thief in the night. You don't seem to be looking at the actual context of the passage at all.
Yes, you did that without showing how the context of the surrounding verses supports what you said. The context of the surrounding veress don't support what you said at all. There is no mention of the world and it's status there in that passage. The passage talks about the spiritual status of individuals in relation to the Lord. Everyone is either in spiritual light or darkness. Those in spiritual darkness are oblivious to God's wrath and think they are safe from it, but they are not. That is what Paul is pointing out in that passage. It has absolutely nothing to do with world peace and safety. The context of the passage does not support that theory at all.
Your erroneous charts simply reflect your erroneous words, so they are useless and meaningless.
No, it's not just about those verses, it's about what those verses tell us about the context of verses 2 and 3.
All of 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:11 is about one event. The second coming of Christ. It will include the resurrection of the dead and Christ and what we call the rapture (gathering and catching up) of all who are in Christ. But, it also includes His wrath coming down on unbelievers as He takes vengeance on them. Both the rapture and His wrath are also mentioned in this passage as part of one event..
2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
Notice that the same day Jesus will "be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe", which is an obvious reference to the day of the resurrection and the rapture of those who are in Christ, Jesus will also take "vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ". You try to turn those into two different events, but scripture does not.
Yes, we should comfort one another with those words because when Jesus comes again for the one and only time, all who are in Christ will be caught up together to meet Him in the air while all of those who are not in Christ will suffer His wrath and vengeance by way of "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3).
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
That is my experience, also, but he thinks I'm just making that up. I definitely am not. I know how many pre-tribbers interpret Revelation and their interpretation of it means they definitely don't think there will be world peace and safety in the time just before Jesus returns. Because of that, they can't see a passage like 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 as being about the day Jesus returns, as post-tribs like us do. He seems to think his own view represents the view of all pre-tribbers. It should go without saying that any time someone says something about Amills, Premills, Pre-tribs, Post-tribs or whatever the case, that they are saying it in general and not necessarily talking about literally everyone who holds to the view being talked about.
Seemed that way to me, too. which makes me wonder if he misunderstood what I said and went on a big rant about it for nothing.
Why would that be so? Do you interpret the Bible based on your own feelings of credibility?
Are you so certain the original creation had seas? I don't think it did.
Much love!
Exactly! Symbols are identified and defined in Scripture. Many will claim elements in the Bible are symbols, but without the Bible saying so, it's just their own opinions paraded about as truth, and becomes a hodgepodge of error, the more tightly they are held.
"believing the Bible", "believing Jesus" is only meaningful if you actually go with what God said, and not with one's own opinions.
Much love!
Sudden destruction comes at the beginning of the 70th week.
The thing is, people have a great many views of these things, and what I protest is the overgeneralization. There is so much poor attitude on display, "I'm so so so right, and you are so so so wrong . . ." "Why won't you believe Jesus?" . . . "what's wrong with you that you cannot understand" as if these sorts of comments show how spiritual the writer is, so that we should accept their view. Do you see the problem with that?
And those who stereotype pre-trib views into the version they happen to know, I think that's not reasonable, given the diversity of the views.
Myself, I think it's better to actually learn what a person thinks, and then respond to them personally, and not just pick out a rapture view, ascribe it to all who seem in that camp, and act as if that's what they actually think.
And with that being said, when you've got one person who thinks God's promises to Israel were abrogated, or reassigned to others, they have such a different starting point, it's like trying to reason why two drivers on two different roads going two different directions don't arrive at the same place. They started off in two different directions. If you want to try to reconcile that, you have to go back to the beginning. Few are willing, and fewer are willing to let go their error (But Jesus said . . .) having taken Scriptures out of context, or applying their own meanings to words instead of useing them the way the writers sid.
I can tell you've given serious study and I always appreciate your posts. Much more so than those who just repeat themselves over and over, and when someone disagrees, "Stop rebelling against the Holy Spirit". Such nonsense!
My view is that the 70th weeks begins with sudden destruction, a world wide cataclysmic earthquake that will topple governments and economies, which will allow the beast to move in like a flood. And before that happens, the world will be experiencing a time of perceived peace and safety.
Much love!
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What is the reason you quoted that passage in response to me?
Regardless of what the reason is, I'll just say for now that the passage you quoted supports what I'm saying in this thread. In the days of Noah before the flood, people thought they were spiritually at peace and were safe from God's wrath and were oblivious to what was going to happen to them. I'm sure they were saying "peace and safety" before the flood came despite being in spiritual darkness while holding to their false sense of security. Their sense of security wasn't based on whatever they perceived to be the condition of the world at the time (which they couldn't have really known about back then), but rather what they each perceived about their own spiritual status. They each had no idea that God was angry with them and had no clue that His wrath was about to come upon them and destroy them.
Each of those unbelievers in Noah's day had a false sense of personal security regardless of whatever might be going on elsewhere in the world. They didn't have any concern that God was angry with them and wanted to take His wrath out on them. That's what I'm saying about 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3. Regardless of what might be going on in the world, each unbeliever has a false sense of personal spiritual security that makes them feel safe from God's wrath, but when Jesus comes as a thief in the night, they will find out they were wrong to feel that way as "sudden destruction" comes upon them from which "they shall not escape".
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
i included you because Scripture is clear "when they say peace and safety - then sudden destruction"
You are CORRECT in stating that "they " are in darkness and their "security" is a false and deadly 'comfort'
Scott CORRECTLY pointed to the fact that some will be seeing and hiding from the Wrath that is Coming.
Therefore:
The Scriptures declare multiple facets surrounding the Second Coming whereby if not understood in the cumulative details given to us in Scripture, it will lead to arguing and miscalculating the exact manifestation as described by the LORD and the Apostles.
@Randy Kluth
Paul indicated that "they shall not escape" the "sudden destruction" that he said will occur when the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3). Who do you think "they" are? Wouldn't "they" be the ones who Paul talked about as being in spiritual darkness in 1 Thessalonians 5:4-7 in contrast to those of us in the church who he called "the children of light"? Do you think anyone who is in spiritual darkness will escape the sudden destruction? When reading what Peter wrote about the same event in 2 Peter 3:10-12, it sure doesn't seem possible to me. But, what are your thoughts on that?
Very astute, to recognize that "sea" here is symbolic as is "the waters" of Revelation 17!
To help you further, read about the "sea" at Isaiah 57:20. Such an understanding helps us to discern why the sea will be "no more" per Revelation 21:1, when God's Kingdom rules this planet.
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