Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

[MonoBiblical]

Because God tells you he is,was,Jesus.

No, he doesn't. I reminded of polytheism when I see the word Elohim. It seems the Babylonian country was a bad influence on Rabbinic Judaism after the fall of the temple. But the word Elohim has no cognate in Greek, and the word El is used instead in the New Testament. This should embarrass the Jews who do not believe Aramaic and Hebrew are 2 stages of the same language.

 

[Grailhunter]

No, he doesn't. I reminded of polytheism when I see the word Elohim. It seems the Babylonian country was a bad influence on Rabbinic Judaism after the fall of the temple. But the word Elohim has no cognate in Greek, and the word El is used instead in the New Testament. This should embarrass the Jews who do not believe Aramaic and Hebrew are 2 stages of the same language.

One God in the Old Testament.....but
You got to be careful about labels, it will limit your understanding....Yahweh impregnated a woman that was betrothed. According to the Mosaic Law that is adultery. Yeshua was sacrificed....sacrificing a person is sacrilegious in both Judaism and Christianity. The Bread and Wine Ritual....The eating of a person's body and drinking of a person's blood is sacrilegious in both Judaism and Christianity.

There are three Gods, Yahweh, Yeshua, and the Holy Spirit.

 

[MonoBiblical]

One God in the Old Testament.....but
You got to be careful about labels, it will limit your understanding....Yahweh impregnated a woman that was betrothed. According to the Mosaic Law that is adultery. Yeshua was sacrificed....sacrificing a person is sacrilegious in both Judaism and Christianity. The Bread and Wine Ritual....The eating of a person's body and drinking of a person's blood is sacrilegious in both Judaism and Christianity.

There are three Gods, Yahweh, Yeshua, and the Holy Spirit.

I need to pray for you.

 

[ProverbsInPink]

No, he doesn't. I reminded of polytheism when I see the word Elohim. It seems the Babylonian country was a bad influence on Rabbinic Judaism after the fall of the temple. But the word Elohim has no cognate in Greek, and the word El is used instead in the New Testament. This should embarrass the Jews who do not believe Aramaic and Hebrew are 2 stages of the same language.

Yes, He did.

You're mono Biblical,yet you don't see it.

As they say, that is as God wills.

Do your soul a favor.
Don't continue to strive to convince us not to see God's words telling us He was,is,Immanuel.

We cannot be convinced to unsee His Truth just because you confess you cannot see it.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

2-3% doesn't sound like a lot...
They sure do make their presence known on these Forums!

2-3% × 2.7 billion = 54 - 81 million
Homosexuals account for <3% and they clang a pretty loud and annoyong cymbal too.

1 Corinthians 15:3-4

That's the Gospel, simple, straight and forward; yet people add all these requirements to possess it ... Many say belief is not enough and add works. Yet Eph. 2:8-9 says different.
.

I'd say that these churches are growing....
Why?
Because 200 years ago the idea that Jesus was not God was not accepted by the church...

JW's have barely 9 million worldwide after over 125 years. They are required to do evangelistic service, knock on doors, and log their hours. Just in the USA alone they log 200 million hours/ yr handing it their Warchtower. And still the numbers barely trickle in. I know family members of mine who have done this for 50 Yeats and don't r we call one person that converted because of their personal efforts. When asked why do you think that is? They all give the same canned answer: The gate is narrow and few find it" Not that narrow, 1/900. God grows a healthy church. In 1900 there were 500 million Christians, now 2.7 billion - that's growth.
Mormons have 17 million but still, for 150 years, it's at a snails pace of growth.

It's not about salvation.
It's about having THE RIGHT to call oneself Christian.
What does one have to believe in order to be called Christian?
Can anyone call themselves a Christìan or are there specific rules one must accept?

I understand human rights. People are free to say what they want, believe what they want. If they call themselves Christian, they must have some belief. We don't know their hearts and cannot judge. If they identify with and are in agreement with Jesus, good. Maybe they are not yet born again, but the reality is,.Jesus is the AUTHOR of our faith. The process could take a lifetime. I know there are tares in the fold put there by Satan to cause division, confusion, destroy.
We see them on this forum ... don't want to mention names, but they have dozens of threads simultaneously that always question doctrines, have doubts about the nature of God, Jesus, Faith, discrepancies in the Bible, questioning its reliability, on and on they go. They call themselves Christians to get into the forum but are tares. They either know what they are doing or maybe they desire faith, but it is obvious they lack it. They argue with ten people that disagree, then start another thread, ranting about something else. Remember Saul persecuted and murdered Christians and God changed his heart. So don't fret, He's in charge. He has a plan and has chosen His elect and everyone of them will see the Light. Don't worry about the others.

 

[Grailhunter]

2-3% × 2.7 billion = 54 - 81 million
Homosexuals account for <3% and they clang a pretty loud and annoyong cymbal too.

That's the Gospel, simple, straight and forward; yet people add all these requirements to possess it ... Many say belief is not enough and add works. Yet Eph. 2:8-9 says different.
.

JW's have barely 9 million worldwide after over 125 years. They are required to do evangelistic service, knock on doors, and log their hours. Just in the USA alone they log 200 million hours/ yr handing it their Warchtower. And still the numbers barely trickle in. I know family members of mine who have done this for 50 Yeats and don't r we call one person that converted because of their personal efforts. When asked why do you think that is? They all give the same canned answer: The gate is narrow and few find it" Not that narrow, 1/900. God grows a healthy church. In 1900 there were 500 million Christians, now 2.7 billion - that's growth.
Mormons have 17 million but still, for 150 years, it's at a snails pace of growth.

I understand human rights. People are free to say what they want, believe what they want. If they call themselves Christian, they must have some belief. We don't know their hearts and cannot judge. If they identify with and are in agreement with Jesus, good. Maybe they are not yet born again, but the reality is,.Jesus is the AUTHOR of our faith. The process could take a lifetime. I know there are tares in the fold put there by Satan to cause division, confusion, destroy.
We see them on this forum ... don't want to mention names, but they have dozens of threads simultaneously that always question doctrines, have doubts about the nature of God, Jesus, Faith, discrepancies in the Bible, questioning its reliability, on and on they go. They call themselves Christians to get into the forum but are tares. They either know what they are doing or maybe they desire faith, but it is obvious they lack it. They argue with ten people that disagree, then start another thread, ranting about something else. Remember Saul persecuted and murdered Christians and God changed his heart. So don't fret, He's in charge. He has a plan and has chosen His elect and everyone of them will see the Light. Don't worry about the others.

You will be hard press to find someone that thinks that works save.
On the other hand the Greek word for works and deeds are the same.
Then again good deeds do not save you but not helping those in need can put you in Hell.
Read the story of the Sheep and the Goats and note where those that did not help are going.
Good Christians help others and give to charity and go to Church on Sunday and worship the Trinity.
Those that are not good Christians give the Lord lip services and will be in a bad place on Judgment Day.
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 2nd Corinthians 5:10

What Does the Bible Say About Helping Others?

Bible verses about Helping Others

www.openbible.info

 

[GodsGrace]

No, God is a 3 part being

There's not 3 different Gods.

God's Word does not teach there are 3 different Gods.

We've already been throught this BB,,,,
I THINK you believe in the Trinity...
maybe I'm wrong since you don't seem to understand what I posted.

There are NOT 3 different Gods.
I NEVER said this and will never say this.

There is ONE GOD
In that ONE GOD there are THREE distinct PERSONS.

I already posted this to you and asked that you find out what PERSON means as related to the trinity.
If you don't want to find out....that's fine with me...
but please do NOT reply to me putting words in my mouth by scolding me because YOU THINK I said there are three Gods.

And so there is no issue with the end of Mark

No sir.
No issue with the end of Mark because the ending is in other gospels.
There is no conflict with the resurrection narrative.
Whether or not the Mark ends at verse 8 or continues to 20 is irrelevant.

That's a fresh steaming hot load of horse hockey!

Jesus said He only does and says what He sees the Father do and say.

Too bad some claim Jesus lied about that.

Inquiring if there was some other way than having to go to the Cross does not mean Jesus was schizophrenic as some are claiming

Apparently you don't seem to understand that Jesus had two wills.

Another topic you could study up on.

Do you believe Jesus was 100% human and 100% divine?

Then WHICH ONE had a will?
Only the human?
Only the divine?

No BB, Jesus had BOTH a human will and a divine will.
It's called dyothelitism.

Look it up.

 

[GodsGrace]

Okay; you made me look up "dyothelitism".

The word is derived from the Greek "duo thelo". "Thelo" is the will of desire or motivation. Another biblical word translated "will" is "Boule", which is what person actually sets out to do. A person can have multiple conflicting desires, but in the end, he decides on a particular course of action.

You run into this a lot in the Calvinism/Arminian debates with verses like 1 Timothy 2:4 KJV, "God wills that all men be saved", which should be understood as God's desires, not the "Deliberate" or "Decretive" will of God that is His actual plan.

Calvinism had to invent the TWO WILLS of God in order to make any sense of their theology.

God has only one will....which would correspond to Jesus' divine will.

But God was not ever human.....which is why only Jesus had a human will while on earth.

Yes, a will is what a person sets out to do.
God has a plan...and it is His will that it be achieved.

Jesus followed His divine will,,,,as would be expected of Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again GodsGrace and Greetings Big Boy Johnson,

No, the Apostles believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

John 20:30-31 (KJV): 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Trevor...I'm not turning this conversation with you into a JESUS IS GOD debate.
I usually will not do this because it should be ASSUMED that if a person puts CHRISTIAN under their avatar, it SHOULD mean that they believe Jesus is God.

This is what this thread is about.

The Apostles believed Jesus was God.
THIS is what they taught those that came after them.

Here is what those that came after them believed....besides all the verses which state that Jesus is God:
But why believe THEM??
Better to believe some guy that invented a new religion about 200 years ago.

I suppose you believe HE was inspired, but not those taught by the Apostles.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Polycarp (AD 69-155) was the bishop at the church in Smyrna. Irenaeus tells us Polycarp was a disciple of John the Apostle. In his Letter to the Philippians he says,

Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth...and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead.1

Ignatius (AD 50-117) was the bishop at the church in Antioch and also a disciple of John the Apostle. He wrote a series of letters to various churches on his way to Rome, where he was to be martyred. He writes,

Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, unto her which hath been blessed in greatness through the plentitude of God the Father; which hath been foreordained before the ages to be for ever unto abiding and unchangeable glory, united and elect in a true passion, by the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ our God; even unto the church which is in Ephesus [of Asia], worthy of all felicitation: abundant greeting in Christ Jesus and in blameless joy.2

Being as you are imitators of God, once you took on new life through the blood of God you completed perfectly the task so natural to you.3

There is only one physician, who is both flesh and spirit, born and unborn, God in man, true life in death, both from Mary and from God, first subject to suffering and then beyond it, Jesus Christ our Lord.4

For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God’s plan, both from the seed of David and of the Holy Spirit.5

Consequently all magic and every kind of spell were dissolved, the ignorance so characteristic of wickedness vanished, and the ancient kingdom was abolished when God appeared in human form to bring the newness of eternal life.6

For our God Jesus Christ is more visible now that he is in the Father.7

I glorify Jesus Christ, the God who made you so wise, for I observed that you are established in an unshakable faith, having been nailed, as it were, to the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ.8

Wait expectantly for the one who is above time: the Eternal, the Invisible, who for our sake became visible; the Intangible, the Unsuffering, who for our sake suffered, who for our sake endured in every way.9

Justin Martyr (AD 100-165) was an Christian apologist of the second century.

And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, so also was manifested at the judgment executed on Sodom, has been demonstrated fully by what has been said.10

Permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts.11

Therefore these words testify explicitly that He [Jesus] is witnessed to by Him [the Father] who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ.12

The Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin....13

For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God.14

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[GodsGrace]

@TrevorHL

2 of 3


Melito of Sardis (died c. AD 180) was the bishop of the church in Sardis.

He that hung up the earth in space was Himself hanged up; He that fixed the heavens was fixed with nails; He that bore up the earth was born up on a tree; the Lord of all was subjected to ignominy in a naked body—God put to death! ... n order that He might not be seen, the luminaries turned away, and the day became darkened—because they slew God, who hung naked on the tree.... This is He who made the heaven and the earth, and in the beginning, together with the Father, fashioned man; who was announced by means of the law and the prophets; who put on a bodily form in the Virgin; who was hanged upon the tree; who was buried in the earth; who rose from the place of the dead, and ascended to the height of heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father.15

Irenaeus of Lyons (AD 130-202) was bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul, which is now Lyons, France. Irenaeus was born in Smyrna in Asia Minor, where he studied under bishop Polycarp, who in turn had been a disciple of John the Apostle.

For I have shown from the Scriptures, that no one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord. But that He is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth. Now, the Scriptures would not have testified these things of Him, if, like others, He had been a mere man.... He is the holy Lord, the Wonderful, the Counselor, the Beautiful in appearance, and the Mighty God, coming on the clouds as the Judge of all men;—all these things did the Scriptures prophesy of Him.16

He received testimony from all that He was very man, and that He was very God, from the Father, from the Spirit, from angels, from the creation itself, from men, from apostate spirits and demons.17

Christ Jesus [is] our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father.18

Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spoke to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers.19

Carefully, then, has the Holy Ghost pointed out, by what has been said, His birth from a virgin, and His essence, that He is God (for the name Emmanuel indicates this). And He shows that He is a man.... [W]e should not understand that He is a mere man only, nor, on the other hand, from the name Emmanuel, should suspect Him to be God without flesh.20

Clement of Alexandria (AD 150-215) was another early church father. He wrote around AD 200. He writes,

This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) and of our well-being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, both God and man—the Author of all blessings to us; by whom we, being taught to live well, are sent on our way to life eternal.... The Word, who in the beginning bestowed on us life as Creator when He formed us, taught us to live well when He appeared as our Teacher that as God He might afterwards conduct us to the life which never ends.21

For it was not without divine care that so great a work was accomplished in so brief a space by the Lord, who, though despised as to appearance, was in reality adored, the expiator of sin, the Savior, the clement, the Divine Word, He that is truly most manifest Deity, He that is made equal to the Lord of the universe; because He was His Son, and the Word was in God....22

Tertullian (AD 150-225) was an early Christian apologist. He said,

For God alone is without sin; and the only man without sin is Christ, since Christ is also God.23

Thus Christ is Spirit of Spirit, and God of God, as light of light is kindled.... That which has come forth out of God is at once God and the Son of God, and the two are one. In this way also, as He is Spirit of Spirit and God of God, He is made a second in manner of existence—in position, not in nature; and He did not withdraw from the original source, but went forth. This ray of God, then, as it was always foretold in ancient times, descending into a certain virgin, and made flesh in her womb, is in His birth God and man united.24

Bear always in mind that this is the rule of faith which I profess; by it I testify that the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit are inseparable from each other , and so will you know in what sense this is said. Now, observe, my assertion is that the Father is one, and the Son one, and the Spirit one, and that they are distinct from each other. This statement is taken in a wrong sense by every uneducated as well as every perversely disposed person, as if it predicated a diversity, in such a sense as to imply a separation among the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit. I am, moreover, obliged to say this, when they contend for the identity of the Father and Son and Spirit, that it is not by way of diversity that the Son differs from the Father, but by distribution: it is not by division that He is different, but by distinction; because the Father is not the same as the Son, since they differ one from the other in the mode of their being. For the Father is the entire substance, but the Son is a derivation and portion of the whole, as He Himself acknowledges: “My Father is greater than I.” In the Psalm His inferiority is described as being “a little lower than the angels.” Thus the Father is distinct from the Son, being greater than the Son, inasmuch as He who begets is one, and He who is begotten is another; He, too, who sends is one, and He who is sent is another; and He, again, who makes is one, and He through whom the thing is made is another. Happily the Lord Himself employs this expression of the person of the Paraclete, so as to signify not a division or severance, but a disposition (of mutual relations in the Godhead); for He says, “I will pray the Father, and He shall send you another Comforter...even the Spirit of truth,” thus making the Paraclete distinct from Himself, even as we say that the Son is also distinct from the Father; so that He showed a third degree in the Paraclete, as we believe the second degree is in the Son, by reason of the order observed in the Economy. Besides, does not the very fact that they have the distinct names of Father and Son amount to a declaration that they are distinct in personality?25

As if in this way also one were not All, in that All are of One, by unity (that is) of substance; while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing in their order the three Persons—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect; yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God, from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.26

o, 36. ANF, I:212. ↩

 

[GodsGrace]

@TrevorHL

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Hippolytus of Rome (AD 170-235) was a third-century theologian. He was a disciple of Irenaeus, who was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John. He writes,

The Logos alone of this God is from God himself; wherefore also the Logos is God, being the substance of God.27

For, lo, the Only-begotten entered, a soul among souls, God the Word with a (human) soul. For His body lay in the tomb, not emptied of divinity; but as, while in Hades, He was in essential being with His Father, so was He also in the body and in Hades. For the Son is not contained in space, just as the Father; and He comprehends all things in Himself.28

For all, the righteous and the unrighteous alike, shall be brought before God the Word.29

Let us believe then, dear brethren, according to the tradition of the apostles, that God the Word came down from heaven, (and entered) into the holy Virgin Mary, in order that, taking the flesh from her, and assuming also a human, by which I mean a rational soul, and becoming thus all that man is with the exception of sin, He might save fallen man, and confer immortality on men who believe on His name.... He now, coming forth into the world, was manifested as God in a body, coming forth too as a perfect man. For it was not in mere appearance or by conversion, but in truth, that He became man. Thus then, too, though demonstrated as God, He does not refuse the conditions proper to Him as man, since He hungers and toils and thirsts in weariness, and flees in fear, and prays in trouble. And He who as God has a sleepless nature, slumbers on a pillow.30

Origen (AD 185-254) was another early Christian theologian. He writes,

Jesus Christ...in the last times, divesting Himself (of His glory), became a man, and was incarnate although God, and while made a man remained the God which He was.31

Seeing God the Father is invisible and inseparable from the Son, the Son is not generated from Him by “prolation,” as some suppose. For if the Son be a “prolation” of the Father (the term “prolation” being used to signify such a generation as that of animals or men usually is), then, of necessity, both He who “prolated” and He who was “prolated” are corporeal. For we do not say, as the heretics suppose, that some part of the substance of God was converted into the Son, or that the Son was procreated by the Father out of things non-existent, i.e., beyond His own substance, so that there once was a time when He did not exist.... How, then, can it be asserted that there once was a time when He was not the Son? For that is nothing else than to say that there was once a time when He was not the Truth, nor the Wisdom, nor the Life, although in all these He is judged to be the perfect essence of God the Father; for these things cannot be severed from Him, or even be separated from His essence.32

For we who say that the visible world is under the government to Him who created all things, do thereby declare that the Son is not mightier than the Father, but inferior to Him. And this belief we ground on the saying of Jesus Himself, “The Father who sent Me is greater than I.” And none of us is so insane as to affirm that the Son of man is Lord over God. But when we regard the Savior as God the Word, and Wisdom, and Righteousness, and Truth, we certainly do say that He has dominion over all things which have been subjected to Him in this capacity, but not that His dominion extends over the God and Father who is Ruler over all.33

Wherefore we have always held that God is the Father of His only-begotten Son, who was born indeed of Him, and derives from Him what He is, but without any beginning, not only such as may be measured by any divisions of time, but even that which the mind alone can contemplate within itself, or behold, so to speak, with the naked powers of the understanding.34

But it is monstrous and unlawful to compare God the Father, in the generation of His only-begotten Son, and in the substance of the same, to any man or other living thing engaged in such an act; for we must of necessity hold that there is something exceptional and worthy of God which does not admit of any comparison at all, not merely in things, but which cannot even be conceived by thought or discovered by perception, so that a human mind should be able to apprehend how the unbegotten God is made the Father of the only-begotten Son. Because His generation is as eternal and everlasting as the brilliancy which is produced from the sun. For it is not by receiving the breath of life that He is made a Son, by any outward act, but by His own nature.35

And that you may understand that the omnipotence of Father and Son is one and the same, as God and the Lord are one and the same with the Father, listen to the manner in which John speaks in the Apocalypse: “Thus saith the Lord God, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.” For who else was “He which is to come” than Christ? And as no one ought to be offended, seeing God is the Father, that the Savior is also God; so also, since the Father is called omnipotent, no one ought to be offended that the Son of God is also called omnipotent.36

**Nearly all of the above early writing can be read at Early Christian Writings.

---

1. Polycarp, Philippians, 12:2. ↩
2. Ignatius, Letter to the Ephesians, 0.0. (This is the Greeting.) ↩
3. Ignatius, Letter to the Ephesians, 1.1. ↩
4. Ignatius, Letter to the Ephesians, 7.2. ↩
5. Ignatius, Letter to the Ephesians, 18.2. ↩
6. Ignatius, Letter to the Ephesians, 19.3. ↩
7. Ignatius, Letter to the Romans, 3.3. Holmes, AF, 229. ↩
8. Ignatius, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 1.1. Holmes, AF, 249. ↩
9. Ignatius, Letter to Polycarp, 3.2. Holmes, AF, 265. ↩
10. Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 128. Translation from Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, I:264. ↩
11. Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Tryph

 

[GodsGrace]

2-3% × 2.7 billion = 54 - 81 million
Homosexuals account for <3% and they clang a pretty loud and annoyong cymbal too.

Agreed.

That's the Gospel, simple, straight and forward; yet people add all these requirements to possess it ... Many say belief is not enough and add works. Yet Eph. 2:8-9 says different.

I don't believe it's PEOPLE adding other requirements...
I believe the NT teaches this.
Jesus tells us to ACT upon His words...
He tells us to be baptized....
He tells us to love....
etc.

Now, I THINK you're referring to Faith Alone.
The problem with faith alone is that the moment you add something else to it..
it is no longer faith alone.
If we love our neighbor, it is no longer faith alone.

Works do not save anyone...but Jesus said to do good deeds...
so I think we should.

.

JW's have barely 9 million worldwide after over 125 years. They are required to do evangelistic service, knock on doors, and log their hours. Just in the USA alone they log 200 million hours/ yr handing it their Warchtower. And still the numbers barely trickle in. I know family members of mine who have done this for 50 Yeats and don't r we call one person that converted because of their personal efforts. When asked why do you think that is? They all give the same canned answer: The gate is narrow and few find it" Not that narrow, 1/900. God grows a healthy church. In 1900 there were 500 million Christians, now 2.7 billion - that's growth.
Mormons have 17 million but still, for 150 years, it's at a snails pace of growth.

Agreed.
You must have studied statistics!
Good information.

I understand human rights. People are free to say what they want, believe what they want. If they call themselves Christian, they must have some belief. We don't know their hearts and cannot judge. If they identify with and are in agreement with Jesus, good. Maybe they are not yet born again, but the reality is,.Jesus is the AUTHOR of our faith. The process could take a lifetime. I know there are tares in the fold put there by Satan to cause division, confusion, destroy.
We see them on this forum ... don't want to mention names, but they have dozens of threads simultaneously that always question doctrines, have doubts about the nature of God, Jesus, Faith, discrepancies in the Bible, questioning its reliability, on and on they go. They call themselves Christians to get into the forum but are tares. They either know what they are doing or maybe they desire faith, but it is obvious they lack it. They argue with ten people that disagree, then start another thread, ranting about something else. Remember Saul persecuted and murdered Christians and God changed his heart. So don't fret, He's in charge. He has a plan and has chosen His elect and everyone of them will see the Light. Don't worry about the others.

I guess it all depends on what you believe makes a Christian.
I think it requires believing that Jesus is God, believing in the Trinity (or Jesus could not be God),
and, maybe, being baptized - I'd add that too, and believing the bible is our "book". (no other book).

 

[Grailhunter]

False beliefs are very powerful, even over a hundred scriptures cannot defeat them!
Yahweh and Yeshua and the Holy Spirit sit on thrones in Heaven wondering if people think there is a
Divine blender involved or they think they are sitting in each others laps.
Yahweh and Yeshua and the Holy Spirit equal three Gods.
Maybe we need a math section on this forum.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

it should be ASSUMED that if a person puts CHRISTIAN under their avatar, it SHOULD mean that they believe Jesus is God. This is what this thread is about.

I simply disagree with this assertion and this is the reason I have contested this from the start.

Here is what those that came after them believed

I appreciate the long list of statements from the ECFs, but to me this is a witness to the fact of how early these men fell away from the true teaching of the Bible and the Apostles. There was a significant separation in the days of the Apostle John.

But why believe THEM??
Better to believe some guy that invented a new religion about 200 years ago.
I suppose you believe HE was inspired, but not those taught by the Apostles.

I do not believe that the pioneers of my fellowship were inspired, and I certainly do not accept that those that you have quoted were inspired.

The major pioneer of my fellowship was a medical doctor and had some beginnings in the Campbellites, Disciples of Christ. He became an editor of one of their magazines in 1834. He gradually differed from them on many items, and more or less separated from them in the 1840s. On the subject of the Trinity he expounded Exodus 3:14 as "I will be" and this agrees with Tyndale and the RV and RSV margins. Even many Trinitarians accept this rendition.

He had a major encounter in 1858 when a Jewish Trinitarian invited him to help him defend the subject of the Trinity to a large audience of Jews, with whom the Jew was having great difficulty defending the subject. Rather than helping the Trinitarian Jew our pioneer gave a clear exposition of the Bible teaching. This was issued later in his book Phanerosis and this subject was also later expanded in his first volume of his exposition on the Book of Revelation in 1861 when considering Revelation chapter 1. I agree in general with his expositions as being very helpful in understanding the subject as a whole, often referred to in our fellowship as God Manifestation. In my discussions on various forums, I have developed a proper explanation of many popular verses such as John 1:1,14, 8:58 and 10:30.

A true Christian is one who follows the teaching and fellowship of the Apostles John 20:30-31, Acts 11:25-26. I will continue to hold onto my present beliefs which were introduced to me in a formal way at a Young People's weekend in the Southern Highlands when I was 19 y.o. and that was over 60 years ago, and during this period of time my appreciation and interest in this subject has grown and is one of my favourite Bible themes. That weekend was also the start of my four year courtship of my wife Joyce, and we have shared 58 years of marriage believing that Jesus is a human, the Son of God by birth Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35, character John 1:14 and resurrection Roman 1:1-4.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

I simply disagree with this assertion and this is the reason I have contested this from the start.

You have every right to disagree.
But answer this:
When I tell someone I'm Christian....
SHOULD they know what I believe?

Or
Do I have to go through doctrine and explain to them what TYPE of Christian I am??

If someone wants to associate themselves with ANY group/organization...
don't they have to agree to the goals of that organization and its major beliefs?

I appreciate the long list of statements from the ECFs, but to me this is a witness to the fact of how early these men fell away from the true teaching of the Bible and the Apostles. There was a significant separation in the days of the Apostle John.

LOL
They didn't fall away Trevor...
they were taught by the Apostles.
Igantius of Antioch learned from John himself and Peter.
Polycarp learned from John.
Irenaeus learned from Polycarp.
Clement of Rome, mentioned in Acts, learned from Paul and Peter.

I do not believe that the pioneers of my fellowship were inspired, and I certainly do not accept that those that you have quoted were inspired.

Never said they were inspired.
Does that make their writings insignificant if they were taught by Peter, Paul, John ???
Seems to me they knew Christian doctrine better than any person living in the 1800's.

The major pioneer of my fellowship was a medical doctor and had some beginnings in the Campbellites, Disciples of Christ. He became an editor of one of their magazines in 1834. He gradually differed from them on many items, and more or less separated from them in the 1840s. On the subject of the Trinity he expounded Exodus 3:14 as "I will be" and this agrees with Tyndale and the RV and RSV margins. Even many Trinitarians accept this rendition.

The Campbellites weren't around right after the Apostles passed on their teachings...
although I do NOT know anything about them.
I read from you that he separated from them in the 1840's.
Why?

Because we each want to make our own religion Trevor.
We're creating separation and division...something Jesus did not want or Paul.

2 Peter 1:21
21For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

John 17:21
21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

1 Corinthians 1:10
10I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.


A house divided cannot stand.
Mark 3:24-25

He had a major encounter in 1858 when a Jewish Trinitarian invited him to help him defend the subject of the Trinity to a large audience of Jews, with whom the Jew was having great difficulty defending the subject. Rather than helping the Trinitarian Jew our pioneer gave a clear exposition of the Bible teaching. This was issued later in his book Phanerosis and this subject was also later expanded in his first volume of his exposition on the Book of Revelation in 1861 when considering Revelation chapter 1. I agree in general with his expositions as being very helpful in understanding the subject as a whole, often referred to in our fellowship as God Manifestation. In my discussions on various forums, I have developed a proper explanation of many popular verses such as John 1:1,14, 8:58 and 10:30.

God manifesting Himself in different forms is a heresy known as Modulism.


The heresy of modalism is the belief that God is a single person who appears in different "modes" or "forms"—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—rather than being three distinct, co-equal, co-eternal persons in one Godhead. This view is considered heretical because it denies the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, suggesting the modes are sequential rather than simultaneous, which contradicts core creeds and scripture as understood by the church.

source: Gemini (and any Christian writing).

A true Christian is one who follows the teaching and fellowship of the Apostles John 20:30-31, Acts 11:25-26.

I had asked you to please explain what Acts 11:25-26 states exactly since I cannot decipher it as regarding a belief or an obedience system.

I will continue to hold onto my present beliefs which were introduced to me in a formal way at a Young People's weekend in the Southern Highlands when I was 19 y.o. and that was over 60 years ago, and during this period of time my appreciation and interest in this subject has grown and is one of my favourite Bible themes. That weekend was also the start of my four year courtship of my wife Joyce, and we have shared 58 years of marriage believing that Jesus is a human, the Son of God by birth Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35, character John 1:14 and resurrection Roman 1:1-4.

Interesting that you posted John 1:14.
It goes against everything you believe.

John 1:1 states that the word was always with God and that the word was GOD.
John 1:14 states that this WORD....became flesh and dwelt among us.

Four year courtship?
We have a lot in common except we got married after 6 months!
God bless you Trevor.
Nice conversation.

 

[Grailhunter]

One God in the Old Testament.....but
You got to be careful about labels, it will limit your understanding....Yahweh impregnated a woman that was betrothed. According to the Mosaic Law that is adultery. Yeshua was sacrificed....sacrificing a person is sacrilegious in both Judaism and Christianity. The Bread and Wine Ritual....The eating of a person's body and drinking of a person's blood is sacrilegious in both Judaism and Christianity.

There are three Gods, Yahweh, Yeshua, and the Holy Spirit.

Oh and show me where El is used in the New Testament.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

When I tell someone I'm Christian.... SHOULD they know what I believe?

As previously discussed, the term "Christian" has a wider range of meaning and usage today than in the 1st Century.

If someone wants to associate themselves with ANY group/organization... don't they have to agree to the goals of that organization and its major beliefs?

As far as my fellowship is concerned, the answer is Yes. We do not have an open fellowship.

Does that make their writings insignificant if they were taught by Peter, Paul, John ???
Seems to me they knew Christian doctrine better than any person living in the 1800's.

I have never studied any of these writers. One of my brethren has, and he paints a different picture to what you have presented. Also I have a book by an author who has extensively studied this subject, and he definitely also disagrees with your position. My understanding is based on the OT and NT teaching and I do respect the help received from a few teachers in the 1800's and that continued up until the present time.

I read from you that he separated from them in the 1840's. Why?

For example, he received strong opposition from Alexander Campbell who believed in immortal souls and going to heaven when you die. Our pioneer taught that we return to the dust awaiting the resurrection when Jesus returns to set up his kingdom on the earth for the 1000 years.

God manifesting Himself in different forms is a heresy known as Modalism.

We do not accept Modalism. We believe that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father.

I had asked you to please explain what Acts 11:25-26 states exactly since I cannot decipher it as regarding a belief or an obedience system.

Of necessity in its context, it reflects the teaching of Paul and Barnabas and as a result of their teaching and example the early believers at Antioch prospered.

Interesting that you posted John 1:14. It goes against everything you believe.

My understanding of John 1:14 differs from yours then, especially on the teaching that Jesus is the only begotten of the Father.

Four year courtship? We have a lot in common except we got married after 6 months!

I had to grow up first. We started courting when I was 19, and married when I was 23. We were able to purchase a small new house immediately when we were married. Joyce worked for six months and has not worked since. She did very well bringing up our four children. She was excellent at nursery rhymes and can repeat them from memory to this day. Both the husband and wife in the next generation in Australia have had to work to afford a house, and the present generation find home ownership almost impossible.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Berean]

Are there any scriptures that declare one must believe in the trinity doctrine to gain salvation?

 

[Grailhunter]

Are there any scriptures that declare one must believe in the trinity doctrine to gain salvation?

No, that is the saving grace.
For the first 3 centuries there were two schools of thought. That there were Yahweh and Yeshua and Holy Spirit, 3 Gods or the Belief that there were 2 Gods and the Holy Spirit was not a God but the Spirit of Yahweh.
It was not until the 4th century that the 3 in 1 formula for the Trinity was forced on Christianity by the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[GodsGrace]

Are there any scriptures that declare one must believe in the trinity doctrine to gain salvation?

I have to keep repeating this:

This thread is NOT about soteriology.
It is NOT about what one must do to be saved.
One cannot believe that the Trinity is correct theology and still be saved.

The question is:
Are there prerequisites to being defined as Christian?

I'd say the top 3 are:
Belief that Jesus is God
thus
Belief in the Trinity
The resurrection of both Jesus and all persons, eventually.