Is God Magnanimous? - (as opposed to tyrannical)

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Lizbeth

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2022
6,013
7,407
113
68
Ontario, Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Gender
Female
Truth revealed to the unwilling will have them running from this torment....yes, they will cry for the rocks and mountains to fall on them because they wrongly perceive God and the Lamb to be wrathful. Rev. 6:16

Suicide is preferable to the wicked rather than come clean. (such is the fruit of pride)
I wonder if it speaking to the condition of the lost - alluding to seeking the wrong mountain/rock to cover them.....instead of finding shelter in the cleft of the true Rock/mountain of Christ:

Isa 30:1-3

Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:
That walk to go down into Egypt, and have not asked at my mouth; to strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharaoh, and to trust in the shadow of Egypt!
Therefore shall the strength of Pharaoh be your shame, and the trust in the shadow of Egypt your confusion.

And how are they "wrongly perceiving" that God is wrathful, when His wrath is spoken of and warned about all through the bible......and the horrific events of what happened to Israel in 70AD is even an example and warning to us? And just look around at this world, if any have eyes to see.........the consequences (judgments) of sin and iniquity are seen constantly and everywhere. How do you understand these scriptures below:

Luk 3:7
Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Jhn 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Rom 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 2:5
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Rom 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 9:22
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Rom 12:19
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Rom 13:5
Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

Eph 2:3
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Eph 5:6
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Col 3:6
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

1Th 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1Th 2:16
Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

1Th 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rev 6:16
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Rev 6:17
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 14:8
And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Rev 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev 14:19
And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Rev 15:7
And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Rev 16:1
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Rev 16:19
And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Rev 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
 

Lizbeth

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2022
6,013
7,407
113
68
Ontario, Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Gender
Female
Ah....you object to eternal conscious punishment. Well, I HOPE you are right, I truly do. However, I see the scriptures as mandating it. I hope I am wrong.

I think we fail to understand eternity. It's because we are products of time. We can't grasp existence outside space and time. Eternal life and Eternal punishment are eternal because they are outside of space and time and are not subject to it. Both life and punishment are forever in the now.
Maybe. Certain things might be eternal in a manner of speaking from heaven's point of view.
 

Lizbeth

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2022
6,013
7,407
113
68
Ontario, Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Gender
Female
It's here that Hymenaeus and Philetus cannot go...they have created a god in their own image after their own likeness.
Amen, exactly. Unfortunately man-centred gospels abound. Doctrines like that make God out to exist to serve man instead of man existing for God, to serve and worship Him.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hiddenthings

Lizbeth

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2022
6,013
7,407
113
68
Ontario, Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Gender
Female
Why are you incapable of evaluating the kindness of God?
And your own level of kindness in comparison?

Would you incinerate your enemies?
Jesus taught us to love our enemies.

Are you kind enough NOT to incinerate your enemies?
Well you just feel free to bring the scriptures that say He will not incinerate His enemies in the end. Look forward to seeing them. Thanks.
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
18,269
6,823
113
71
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well you just feel free to bring the scriptures that say He will not incinerate His enemies in the end. Look forward to seeing them. Thanks.
I have been clear about the fact that the three biblical doctrines of the final judgment are contradictory.
But here are some that indicate all being saved in the end.


Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 NIV
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32, 36
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man,
how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin:
The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Romans 9:16 NIV
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

James 2:13 NIV
... Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Matthew 18:11 NKJV
For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.

Luke 19:10 NIV
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

Ecclesiastes 12:14 NIV
For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.

1 John 4:18 NIV
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear,
because fear has to do with punishment.
The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2 NIV
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.
 

shepherdsword

Encounter Team - Eagle
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 12, 2009
2,034
1,632
113
Millington
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Where did our God-given human conscience come from? (and when) ???

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law,
do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves,
even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,
their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts
sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets
through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
Our self conscience is a result of the fall. Before the fall Adam and Eve didn't even realize they were naked. They never looked at themselves...they only beheld God's glory and as such, they were covered with it. After the fall they gained the knowledge that compelled them to look at theirselves and use that as a standard of measure.

Lucifer's first mistake wasn't pride. It was when he took his eyes off God and looked at himself. This caused him to measure himself against others and end up in pride. This is how pride was born.
 

Lizbeth

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2022
6,013
7,407
113
68
Ontario, Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Gender
Female
I have heard this unsatisfying double-talk all of my adult life.
If God's holiness cannot abide impurity, how could he spent a moment with us?
Since God is omnipresent, why hasn't all the impurity already burned up?
What you claim makes no sense.
I hope we are not of those who assume that if something doesn't make sense to us, that it cannot possibly be true.

The truth is in the word of God. The bible says "No man can see God and live".......and at His coming it says "every eye will SEE Him". His glory will be revealed in all it's fullness, with no holds barred. It will slay those who are not hid/sheltered in the cleft of the Rock. (as well as burn up all of man's sinful or vain works that are not of Him, His Spirit)......look back at the story of Moses desiring to see God's glory.

That is why it says in Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Zep 2:3
Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid (sheltered) in the day of the LORD'S anger.
 
  • Like
Reactions: shepherdsword

Lizbeth

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2022
6,013
7,407
113
68
Ontario, Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Gender
Female
I have been clear about the fact that the three biblical doctrines of the final judgment are contradictory.
But here are some that indicate all being saved in the end.


Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 NIV
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32, 36
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man,
how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin:
The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Romans 9:16 NIV
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

James 2:13 NIV
... Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Matthew 18:11 NKJV
For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.

Luke 19:10 NIV
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

Ecclesiastes 12:14 NIV
For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.

1 John 4:18 NIV
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear,
because fear has to do with punishment.
The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2 NIV
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.
And all those scriptures that speak of destruction, perdition, perishing, wrath, gehenna/hellfire, vengeance etc? Will you just keep on ignoring them? Don't we need the whole counsel of God to be able to rightly divide what is being conveyed? Some of those scriptures you have posted have been addressed with you in previous threads, but you keep ignoring what was explained about them.
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
18,269
6,823
113
71
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Our self conscience is a result of the fall. Before the fall Adam and Eve didn't even realize they were naked. They never looked at themselves...they only beheld God's glory and as such, they were covered with it.
Earlier you were criticizing thinking processes that came from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Glad to see that you now understand it as the source of our human conscience. (which tells us right and wrong)
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
18,269
6,823
113
71
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
After the fall they gained the knowledge that compelled them to look at theirselves and use that as a standard of measure.
At the end of Genesis chapter two A&E were naked and unashamed.
In Genesis three God asks Adam an interesting question. "Who told you that you were naked?"
Who indeed?
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
18,269
6,823
113
71
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And all those scriptures that speak of destruction, perdition, perishing, wrath, gehenna/hellfire, vengeance etc? Will you just keep on ignoring them? Don't we need the whole counsel of God to be able to rightly divide what is being conveyed? Some of those scriptures you have posted have been addressed with you in previous threads, but you keep ignoring what was explained about them.
That saw cuts both ways.
Will you keep ignoring the scriptures that say that all will be saved in the end?
Are they not ALSO part of the whole counsel of God?

 

shepherdsword

Encounter Team - Eagle
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 12, 2009
2,034
1,632
113
Millington
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Earlier you were criticizing thinking processes that came from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Glad to see that you now understand it as the source of our human conscience. (which tells us right and wrong)
You misunderstand. Our sense of right and wrong lacks the capability to judge God. That's why the knowledge was forbidden.

Ro 8:6-7
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lizbeth

Jack

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
15,877
5,965
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You, and most of Christianity claims that God is a tyrannical monster.
I choose to disagree.
God of the Bible gave you a choice. You rejected Him. Save your WHINING for later.

Matthew 13:49-51
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,
50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: shepherdsword

shepherdsword

Encounter Team - Eagle
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 12, 2009
2,034
1,632
113
Millington
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
What then is the source of our human conscience? Where and when?
You seem to be waffling.
These questions have already been answered. The only thing "waffling" is your understanding. Reread post #206 carefully.
 

Lizbeth

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2022
6,013
7,407
113
68
Ontario, Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Gender
Female
That means everyone will be dead when He comes. Does that make sense? (nope)
How does it not make sense? Other scriptures agree:

Psa 37:37-38
Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace.
But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.


Isa 1:27-28
Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.
And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
18,269
6,823
113
71
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
These questions have already been answered. The only thing "waffling" is your understanding. Reread post #206 carefully.
The waffling is about whether our conscience is God-given or evil carnal knowledge.
You misunderstand. Our sense of right and wrong lacks the capability to judge God. That's why the knowledge was forbidden.
Here you say the knowledge (God-given conscience) was forbidden. (by God?)
Our self conscience is a result of the fall. Before the fall Adam and Eve didn't even realize they were naked. They never looked at themselves...they only beheld God's glory and as such, they were covered with it. After the fall they gained the knowledge that compelled them to look at theirselves and use that as a standard of measure.

Lucifer's first mistake wasn't pride. It was when he took his eyes off God and looked at himself. This caused him to measure himself against others and end up in pride. This is how pride was born.
Here's your post #206
Where you claim that our God-given human conscience was a result of the Fall.
 

Lizbeth

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2022
6,013
7,407
113
68
Ontario, Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Gender
Female
That saw cuts both ways.
Will you keep ignoring the scriptures that say that all will be saved in the end?
Are they not ALSO part of the whole counsel of God?

You are not rightly dividing those scriptures which you are choosing to think are saying that all will be saved in the end........that is not what they mean. All who believe will be saved. Jesus is the saviour of all men......means He is the saviour of both Jew and Gentile, not just the "chosen people" called Israel. The condition for salvation is always that one must have faith in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile......that is plainly and clearly written.

It is either perish or be saved. Inherit eternal life or don't inherit it. It is either mortality or immortality. The scriptures do not say or teach in any wise that if you are not saved you will not perish. That if you don't inherit eternal life you will still inherit it. Or that if your mortality is not swallowed up in immortality, you will still be immortal. These two options are presented as either ""one" OR the "other". And God is not lying when He speaks of the "other" (undesirable end).