Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

[Grailhunter]

The mind shifter you're speaking of here is that the Jews were going to stone Jesus for blaspheming...

Sorry for delay....but I did want to reply to this.

Here is the passage:

John 10:22-33
22 At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem;
23 it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon.
24 The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, "How long * will You keep us in suspense *? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."
25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never * perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30 "I and the Father are one."
31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.
32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"
33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."


Verse 24 Jesus was asked if He was the Christ...The annointed One...The Messiah.

Verse 25 Jesus told the Jews that His works tesitified of HIm...God.

Verse 31 At this point, the Jews picked up stones to stone Him.

Verse 32 Jesus asked for what work were they stoning Him.

Verse 33 The Jews replied: Not for any good work, but for BLASPHEMY,,,,because Jesus, being a man, made Himself out to be GOD.


So, yes, Jesus said He was God and for this the Jews were going to stone Him...for blaspheming.
Stating a person was God was punishable by death at that time.

Great scriptures but no Yeshua did not say He was God. But He did say in another set of scriptures that Yahweh was His God. And here He admits that He was the Christ.....Greek for Messiah. Nowhere in the scriptures does Yeshua say He was God or a God. The Jehovah's Witnesses love that. And again Yeshua explained the oneness concept in detail. But when Yeshua said, I and the Father are one....Did the Jews think He was saying that He was God? Probably. God Bless your heart. Christianity is not about what we like or do not like, it is about what is.

Neither Yeshua or the Apostles referred to Yeshua as a God and when they were referring to Yahweh and Yeshua they called Yahweh God and Yeshua Lord.

 

[Grailhunter]

True....but I made no such statement that would require the above reply.

THIS is what I stated:

God, when asked by Moses WHO was sending him...said to say:
I AM sent me.

Jesus, in the NT,,,,stated that before Abraham was...I AM.

Jesus used the same name as God Father did with Moses.

Exodus 3:13-14
13 Then Moses said to God, "Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you.' Now they may say to me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?"
14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM "; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.' "


John 8-56-59
56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
57 So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him


Again, we see that the Jews wanted to stone Jesus for claiming to be I AM....IOW, God.
God Father declared Himself to be I AM.
Jesus declared Himself to be I AM.

Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." This is what I am talking about. I am here meant He was there. In the Old Testament the words I am can refer to Yahweh but not always. I am.....here for you.

 

[Grailhunter]

In Greek what?
I don't speak Greek.

I AM means
I WAS
I AM
I WILL BE

I AM is always existing.

The Greek language.....in the Greek I am does not refer to Yahweh.

 

[shepherdsword]

The Greek language.....in the Greek I am does not refer to Yahweh.

Absolute “I AM” statements — NO predicate (directly divine)
These match the style of Exodus 3:14 and the Septuagint.
Examples:
John 8:58 — the clearest case
“Before Abraham was, I AM (ἐγώ εἰμι).”
Here, Jesus does not say “I was.”
He uses the timeless “I AM” just like Exodus 3:14 LXX.
The Jewish listeners understood this as blasphemy and tried to stone Him —
indicating they believed He was claiming the divine name.
Other absolute “I AM” passages:
John 8:28 — “Then you will know that I AM.”
John 13:19 — “When it happens, you may believe that I AM.”
and the BIG ONE John 8:24 — “Unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.”
These are modeled directly on the Greek of Isaiah 40–55 (LXX), where God repeatedly says:
“ἐγώ εἰμι” = “I AM” as a divine self-designation.

 

[GodsGrace]

The problem is, these are YOUR prerequisites, NOT God's.

Not my prerequisites Berean.
I don't invent my very own religion like some do.

The Christian religion has been around for about 2 thousand years.
The prerequisites have already been established.
The creeds have already been written.

If a person wants to define themselves as Chrsitian there are beliefs that must be adhered to:

1. Jesus is God
2. The Trinity
3. The resurrection
4. The 2nd coming of Jesus and the resurrection of the dead and judgement
5. The bible as our authority
6. Salvation by faith


We don't have the authority to invent Christianity Berean...
If a person does not believe Jesus is God....
he may be saved and and be a better person than any Christian...
but he cannot be defined as Christian.

I don't learn from YouTube, but for anyone interested it is an easy way:

 

[GodsGrace]

Actually, you forget the Arian view, that there is one God, Yahweh, and one Lord, Yeshua, sent by God. That is my view.

The Arian view is heretical.
The Arian view teaches that Jesus was just a man.

You can believe this...
but you cannot consider yourself to be Christian.

Yes. Arianism is once again rearing its ugly head....
Happily,,,it will never be a Christian idea./concept.

 

[Grailhunter]

Absolute “I AM” statements — NO predicate (directly divine)
These match the style of Exodus 3:14 and the Septuagint.
Examples:
John 8:58 — the clearest case
“Before Abraham was, I AM (ἐγώ εἰμι).”
Here, Jesus does not say “I was.”
He uses the timeless “I AM” just like Exodus 3:14 LXX.
The Jewish listeners understood this as blasphemy and tried to stone Him —
indicating they believed He was claiming the divine name.
Other absolute “I AM” passages:
John 8:28 — “Then you will know that I AM.”
John 13:19 — “When it happens, you may believe that I AM.”
and the BIG ONE John 8:24 — “Unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.”
These are modeled directly on the Greek of Isaiah 40–55 (LXX), where God repeatedly says:
“ἐγώ εἰμι” = “I AM” as a divine self-designation.

Ya got to love the cherry pickers......so every time the words I am appear it is referring to Yahweh? NO.

John 8
So they were saying to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also.” 20 These words He spoke in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no one seized Him, because His hour had not yet come.

21 Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come.” 22 So the Jews were saying, “Surely He will not kill Himself, will He, since He says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?” 23 And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” 25 So they were saying to Him, “Who are You?” Jesus said to them, What have I been saying to you from the beginning? 26 I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world.” 27 They did not realize that He had been speaking to them about the Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me. 29 And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.” 30 As He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him.

So you trying to pass off the "I am" in verse 28 is referring to Yahweh.....You have to consider the whole conversation ......If this "I am" referred to Yahweh then Yeshua is His own Father and He sent Himself and He taught Himself and He pleases Himself. When Yeshua said I am He in verse 28 He was referring to the fact that He is the Savior and they would die in their sins if they did not believe that.

 

[Wrangler]

I find it problematic that a person can call themselves a Christian and yet believe that Jesus is not God,,,
which, basically, would be idolatry...

Now that the rule has changed ... I find the opposite to be IDOLATRY. Supposing Jesus is God is a manmade doctrine, the very definition of an IDOL.

There is no trinity verse in Scripture. To be clear, when I write that the trinity is not found anywhere in Scripture, I mean that neither the word nor the concept of the trinity is explicitly in the Bible. To avoid the inevitable Appeal to Strawman, there simply is no verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever. If there were such a verse, it would be the most quoted verse in Scripture by those who claim one’s salvation depends on believing it. The concept of the trinity is so important that in 66 books, it is not mentioned once!

I know trinitarians resort to extreme eisegesis to read their IDOL into unitarian text. Funny how they just ignore the point above ... But John 1:1, etc.

 

[GodsGrace]

Great scriptures but no Yeshua did not say He was God. But He did say in another set of scriptures that Yahweh was His God. And here He admits that He was the Christ.....Greek for Messiah. Nowhere in the scriptures does Yeshua say He was God or a God. The Jehovah's Witnesses love that. And again Yeshua explained the oneness concept in detail. But when Yeshua said, I and the Father are one....Did the Jews think He was saying that He was God? Probably. God Bless your heart. Christianity is not about what we like or do not like, it is about what is.

Neither Yeshua or the Apostles referred to Yeshua as a God and when they were referring to Yahweh and Yeshua they called Yahweh God and Yeshua Lord.

How many times must I post the following?
WHY don't we believe those that knew what the Apostles taught?
Why don't we believe Thomas when he stated: My lord and my God.
Why don't we believe Paul when he said:

Titus 2:13
13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

13.nell’attesa della beata speranza e della manifestazione della gloria del nostro grande Dio e salvatore Gesù Cristo;"

13"aguardando la esperanza bienaventurada y la manifestación gloriosa de nuestro gran Dios y Salvador Jesucristo"


No matter what language GH....it's GOD AND SAVIOR

NOT Our God and Our Savior...which might give you something to stand on.
But it states OUR GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR....all one person.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." This is what I am talking about. I am here meant He was there. In the Old Testament the words I am can refer to Yahweh but not always. I am.....here for you.

No sir...it does NOT mean I AM HERE FOR YOU.

I THINK Jesus knew the OT.
Jesus knew what He was stating when He said I AM.

God Yahweh called Himself the I AM. Exodus 3:14
Jesus called Himself I AM. John 8:58

And so, the Jews wanted to stone Jesus for declaring that He was God.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Greek language.....in the Greek I am does not refer to Yahweh.

Maybe not in the Greek language.
I'm speaking about Exodus 3:14
Written in the Hebrew....
translated to Greek as I AM.
In the Greek it's an ongoing tense....
I WAS
I AM
I WILL BE

I AM a condition of permanance.

Hebrew:

1. to exist
2. to be or become
3. to come into being, i.e. to happen, to occur (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary)

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
become, altogether, accomplished, committed, like, break, cause,
A primitive root (compare hava'); to exist, i.e. Be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary) -- beacon, X altogether, be(-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-)self, require, X use.

see HEBREW hava'

 

[shepherdsword]

Ya got to love the cherry pickers......so every time the words I am appear it is referring to Yahweh? NO.

John 8
So they were saying to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also.” 20 These words He spoke in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no one seized Him, because His hour had not yet come.

21 Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come.” 22 So the Jews were saying, “Surely He will not kill Himself, will He, since He says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?” 23 And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” 25 So they were saying to Him, “Who are You?” Jesus said to them, What have I been saying to you from the beginning? 26 I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world.” 27 They did not realize that He had been speaking to them about the Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me. 29 And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.” 30 As He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him.

So you trying to pass off the "I am" in verse 28 is referring to Yahweh.....You have to consider the whole conversation ......If this "I am" referred to Yahweh then Yeshua is His own Father and He sent Himself and He taught Himself and He pleases Himself. When Yeshua said I am He in verse 28 He was referring to the fact that He is the Savior and they would die in their sins if they did not believe that.

You have to love those that deny the truth right before their eyes. Who said "I am" refers to divinity in every case?

sometimes “I AM” is a reference to the divine name (the Tetragrammaton, YHWH),
and sometimes it is not.it depends entirely on the context and the original language.
Below is the clearest breakdown so you can see exactly when “I AM” carries divine significance.
The original biblical background: Exodus 3:1
When God speaks to Moses:
Hebrew:
אַהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה
Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh= “I AM WHO I AM” or “I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE.”
Then God says: “Say to the Israelites: Ehyeh (‘I AM’) has sent me to you.”
This revelation connects directly with the next verse:
YHWH (יהוה) — the Tetragrammaton.
So in Exodus 3:14–15:
“I AM” → Ehyeh → directly linked to YHWH.
In the Septuagint (Greek OT), “I AM” becomes ἐγώ εἰμι (egō eimi
The Greek translation renders “I AM” in Exodus 3:14 as: ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν“I am the Being” / “I am the One who is.”
This becomes extremely important for how Jews and early Christians understood references to God
In the New Testament, context determines whether “I am” is divine

 

[CTK]

For what it is worth….

In John there are the 7 “I AM’s” that tells us who He is:

6:35,
8:12,
10:7,
10:11,
11:25,
14:6,
15:1

Then, we have the absolute “I AM” in 8:58 and they all speak to Exodus 3:14.

 

[GodsGrace]

Now that the rule has changed ... I find the opposite to be IDOLATRY. Supposing Jesus is God is a manmade doctrine, the very definition of an IDOL.

There is no trinity verse in Scripture. To be clear, when I write that the trinity is not found anywhere in Scripture, I mean that neither the word nor the concept of the trinity is explicitly in the Bible. To avoid the inevitable Appeal to Strawman, there simply is no verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever.

It is not necessary for the NT to be written in the manner YOU would like.
It is written the way it is and from the NT teaching, Jesus IS GOD.

Also, no one on this thread is stating that a person is not saved unless they understand the Trinity.
Le't s get the pony off the one track.

This thread is about what ALLOWS one to be DEFINED as CHRISTIAN.

IOW,,,
can I believe in the Quran and still call myself Christian?
Can I believe that Jesus never resurrected and still believe I'm Christian?
Can I believe there is no afterlife and still consider myself Christian?

WHAT exactly must I believe to be considered a Christian?
Can it be whatever I want it to be..or is there a set standard?

If there were such a verse, it would be the most quoted verse in Scripture by those who claim one’s salvation depends on believing it. The concept of the trinity is so important that in 66 books, it is not mentioned once!

Nice try Wrangler.
But you've misunderstood the OP.

BTW,,,the divinity of Jesus is mentioned thoughout the OT and the NT.
It's just that you reject seeing it.

If a person does not believe Jesus is God...
he cannot identify as Christian.

Would you care to explain why Caiaphas tore his robe?

Matthew 26:63-65
63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, "I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God."
64 Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter * you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."
65 Then the high priest tore his robes and said, "He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have now heard the blasphemy;


Jesus was asked if He was the Christ,,,the Son of God.

Jesus referred to Himself as The Son of Man coming in the clouds...referring to Daniel 9.

The High Priest tore his robe and stated that Jesus blasphemed.

What was the blaspheme?

That Jesus referred to Himself as God.

I know trinitarians resort to extreme eisegesis to read their IDOL into unitarian text. Funny how they just ignore the point above ... But John 1:1, etc.

No eisegesis Wrangler.

Just plain scripture.
You're free to give your version as to why Caiaphas tore his robe.

 

[GodsGrace]

Now that the rule has changed ... I find the opposite to be IDOLATRY. Supposing Jesus is God is a manmade doctrine, the very definition of an IDOL.

Except that it's NOT a man-made doctrine.

Thomas: MY LORD AND MY GOD.
Did Jesus correct him or did Jesus accept the title?

Paul called Jesus OUR GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR.

The Apostles believed Jesus to be God.
Those they taught believed Jesus to be God.

Christendom always has believed Jesus to be God, except for the early heretics, until very recently when MEN began to invent their own religions.
Like the Mormons,
The JWs.......
etc.

So who do YOU believe Jesus is?
Do you worship Him?

If He's just a man...and He went to the cross believing He was the Son of God or The Son of Man...
would you say He was sound of mind?

CS Lewis wrote:
Jesus was either God or He was a madman.

So why are you following a mere man and expecting Him to save your soul?

 

[JLB]

Now that the rule has changed ... I find the opposite to be IDOLATRY. Supposing Jesus is God is a manmade doctrine, the very definition of an IDOL.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16


Who was manifested in the flesh, the Father or the Son?

 

[GodsGrace]

For what it is worth….

In John there are the 7 “I AM’s” that tells us who He is:

6:35,
8:12,
10:7,
10:11,
11:25,
14:6,
15:1

Then, we have the absolute “I AM” in 8:58 and they all speak to Exodus 3:14.

Exactly.
John 8:58 is referring specifically to Exodus 3:14
which is why the Jews wanted to stone Jesus....
I AM meant that He was declaring to be God.

Ditto for Matthew 26:63-66
63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, "I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God."
64 Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter * you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."
65 Then the high priest tore his robes and said, "He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have now heard the blasphemy;
66 what do you think?" They answered, "He deserves death!"

Jesus referred specifically to Daniel 9 and the Jews knew to what He was referring.

I'll entrust the verses to you....if you care to post them.

 

[Grailhunter]

How many times must I post the following?
WHY don't we believe those that knew what the Apostles taught?
Why don't we believe Thomas when he stated: My lord and my God.
Why don't we believe Paul when he said:

Titus 2:13
13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

13.nell’attesa della beata speranza e della manifestazione della gloria del nostro grande Dio e salvatore Gesù Cristo;"

13"aguardando la esperanza bienaventurada y la manifestación gloriosa de nuestro gran Dios y Salvador Jesucristo"


No matter what language GH....it's GOD AND SAVIOR

NOT Our God and Our Savior...which might give you something to stand on.
But it states OUR GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR....all one person.

There is no doubt that Yeshua is a God. There is no doubt that the Apostles knew that He was a God.
The topics we were discussing was how Yeshua and Apostles referred to Him and Yahweh and then the whole "I am" thing. And then the fact that Yeshua called Yahweh His God and His Father. The Deity of Yeshua is certain Its how Father and Son Gods worked together for the good of humanity. God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son .....This is My Son in whom I am well pleased. And the Father is greater than I and My Father in Heaven. And Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’” Yeshua said they are one as we are one....which means the oneness concept extends to us not the number 1. As in the body of Christ, not 1 God.

The topic is about the details on a complex topic. Not the simple fact that Yeshua is a God....the Son of God....
Messiah and Savior.

 

[Grailhunter]

No sir...it does NOT mean I AM HERE FOR YOU.

I THINK Jesus knew the OT.
Jesus knew what He was stating when He said I AM.

God Yahweh called Himself the I AM. Exodus 3:14
Jesus called Himself I AM. John 8:58

And so, the Jews wanted to stone Jesus for declaring that He was God.

LOL I am here for you was a pun.
Yeshua was not using the phrase "I am" the same why Yahweh used it in reference to Himself in Exodus. The phrase I am appears a lot of times in the scriptures and the vast majority of the time not in reference to Yahweh. And although Yeshua did not declare Himself a God in front of the Jews, I do agree that they thought so.

 

[Grailhunter]

You have to love those that deny the truth right before their eyes. Who said "I am" refers to divinity in every case?

sometimes “I AM” is a reference to the divine name (the Tetragrammaton, YHWH),
and sometimes it is not.it depends entirely on the context and the original language.
Below is the clearest breakdown so you can see exactly when “I AM” carries divine significance.
The original biblical background: Exodus 3:1
When God speaks to Moses:
Hebrew:
אַהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה
Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh= “I AM WHO I AM” or “I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE.”
Then God says: “Say to the Israelites: Ehyeh (‘I AM’) has sent me to you.”
This revelation connects directly with the next verse:
YHWH (יהוה) — the Tetragrammaton.
So in Exodus 3:14–15:
“I AM” → Ehyeh → directly linked to YHWH.
In the Septuagint (Greek OT), “I AM” becomes ἐγώ εἰμι (egō eimi
The Greek translation renders “I AM” in Exodus 3:14 as: ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν“I am the Being” / “I am the One who is.”
This becomes extremely important for how Jews and early Christians understood references to God
In the New Testament, context determines whether “I am” is divine

The language difference in words between "I am" in reference to the Deity and I am enjoying this pizza is zero, it is the context that is different. There is not a special language for I am.