Do you believe this statement: "Jesus is YHWH", Yes or No?
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JLB
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Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
1 Peter 1:10-11
The Spirit of Christ; the Spirit of the LORD spoke through the mouth of the prophets saying…
The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1
Hebrews confirms:
But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10
Theology is fascinating:
We have trinitarians who would respond yes to the poll question and trinitarians who would respond no to the poll question.
We have binitarians who would respond yes to the poll question and binitarians who would respond no to the poll question.
We have unitarians who would respond yes to the poll question and unitarians who would respond no to the poll question.
Result: trinitarians, binitarians and unitarians vs. trinitarians, binitarians and unitarians.
Christianity is thoroughly fractured and fragmented.
We have trinitarians who would respond yes to the poll question and trinitarians who would respond no to the poll question.
We have binitarians who would respond yes to the poll question and binitarians who would respond no to the poll question.
We have unitarians who would respond yes to the poll question and unitarians who would respond no to the poll question.
Result: trinitarians, binitarians and unitarians vs. trinitarians, binitarians and unitarians.
Christianity is thoroughly fractured and fragmented.
The incoherent babble you regurgitated was enough to make anyone's head hurt. Although I am sure you thought it was clever, you are in alone in that assumption
What scholars....name them.
And Jesus, because he is God himself, used the same meaning. Which is why the Jews tried to stone him.
So in Exodus 3:14–15: “I AM” → Ehyeh → directly linked to YHWH which Jesus' uses to proclaim his divinity here John 8. "Before Abraham was I AM"
Oh yes, great sage, let us all bow to your sophomoric ramblings! I mean you, in your great wisdom have far surpassed all of the scholars, such as Vincent, Kittle, Wuest and Robinson, who define the usage in John 8 as pertaining to Ex 3:14!
I addresses this in previous posts but your are so full of your own inane deception that it rolled off you like water off a duck's back. Of course, "I AM" does not always refer to divinity, after all, John the Baptist said "I am NOT the Christ" The NT uses the phrase ἐγώ εἰμι (I am) hundreds of times, often in normal, non-divine grammar (“I am hungry,” “I am a man,” etc).In the New Testament, context determines whether “I am” is divine. As it is in John 8. "Before Abraham was I AM" thus showing his pre-existence and divinity. This is in perfect harmony with Jn 1:1 in the beginning was the WORD and the WORD was with God and the WORD was God.
The second person of the Trinity, destined to be called the Son, did not become such until he was born in human flesh. Before that he was just as divine as the Father. So while you rant and rave about Jesus not being divine, the scriptures expose that as a lie.
Php 2:6-8
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
If this subject response indicates who is truly reborn, and a true believer of YHWH of the OT and NT, including his Son from the NT, then many are running on the wrong and wide common track.
And what is telling is when a response suddenly go off the rails, as indicated by the introduction of other unsupportive, unrelated subjects being included in their response. Like the two given back to me by a very excitable and confused individual @shepherdsword, as his supposedly spectacular and killer proof and ace card, that Jesus is YHWH. I expect him to continue to add more superfluous support from his back-pocket list.
He used two common and unsurprising credulous arguments of the purposely contrived and impossible kenosis view of Yeshua, and of John 1:1 that speaks only to the logos of YHWH and not to his Son at that point and time.
Yes, IMO, religious, man-infused Christianity is completely fractured, and beyond repair, and has always been this way especially since the 1st Century.
You are correct on the salvation essentials of this argument. Your train has derailed.
John 8:24 — “Unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.”
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And you know, because of this reality, I am thankful to this forum for having allowed a place for "other", (such as myself), to also have a voice here. The reality in the outside world is that Christianity is no longer Trinitarian Only: those days have been gone for quite some time now.
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TrevorHL
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Greetings again shepherdsword,
John 4:25-26 (KV): 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
Exodus 3:14 (Brereton LXX): And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you.
Kind regards
Trevor
The word "he" needs to be supplied to make proper sense in English. Another example apart from John 8:24,28 is the following and this is also part of the theme of whether or not Jesus is the Christ, and this is specifically stated in this verse..
John 4:25-26 (KV): 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
But you have not quoted all of the LXX of Exodus 3:14 which states that the Divine Name is "The Being", not "I AM". Thus Jesus is not quoting the LXX, and did not speak in Greek and is not alluding to the LXX which would have been unfamiliar to his Hebrew audience:The Greek translation renders “I AM” in Exodus 3:14 as:
2. In the Septuagint (Greek OT), “I AM” becomes ἐγώ εἰμι (egō eimi)
ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν
“I am the Being” / “I am the One who is.”
This becomes extremely important for how Jews and early Christians understood references to God.
Exodus 3:14 (Brereton LXX): And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you.
Kind regards
Trevor
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PS: Please vote!
If you had voted the tally would be five to six and your side would only be down by one! :)
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We need more voters: where are @David in NJ , @amigo de christo , and @Marvelloustime , whom I just ran into yesterday on this board? Please come and vote! :)
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I am not a Trinitarian: just being open and honest about that. It is no secret that I m an Adoptionist, (according to the understanding given to me by way of the Logos in the teachings of the Meshiah and his Apostles in the N/T scriptures, (including Paul)).
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I've seen some recent polls that were somewhat astonishing to me. I would like to be able to use this much smaller poll just to see how this forum compares, though I know this will be more guess work than an official poll, and is polled from an audience where most of the members claim to be Christians. My way of getting around that is to hopefully find through this poll a fair estimate of how many here believe something that I know is not a Trinitarian belief, (whether or not the person responding to the thread question claims to be a Christian).
Recent Poll Example:
Most American Christians don't believe in the Trinity: Survey
An overwhelming majority of Christians reject the basic Christian teaching of the Trinity, prompting new concerns that Americans are living without the influence of the truths and life principles of
www.christianpost.com
JLB
Well-Known Member
Yes. It was YHWH God who became flesh so He could indeed be sacrificed for our sins.
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16
It is the name of YHWH who we call on to be saved.
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.” Romans 10:9-13
What is the name of the LORD you called on to be saved?
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Yahweh
Jes 41:4 Who has performed and done this, calling the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
Jes 41:4 Who has performed and done this, calling the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
Jes 43:13 Also henceforth I am he; there is none who can deliver from my hand; I work, and who can turn it back?”
Jes 43:25 “I, I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins.
Jes 48:12 “Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last.
Jesus
John 8:23 He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”
John 8:27 They did not understand that he had been speaking to them about the Father.
John 8:28 So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me.
John 13:19 I am telling you this now, before it takes place, that when it does take place you may believe that I am he.
Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last,
Rev 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
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I did not vote. You may count that as a vote PROVIDED you post all Scripture in this post, else you may not count and misuse my name.
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Why are so many here afraid to stand up and vote what they believe? I am not doing this to use it against anyone or condemn anyone. I will count it as a Yes vote but that does not mean I am going to plaster it all over the board or even repeat it here in this thread.
By the way, you have misquoted all of the verses you quoted from John. None of them say "I am he" in any of the most important Greek manuscripts. You failed to hang on his every word in those passages, both John 8 and John 13, and removed those statements from their contexts which allowed you to follow your favorite translators into the ditch, where they themselves already are, by removing those texts from their Logos, which is only known by context, so that you and they, having stripped those verses from their Logos, could then insert your own logos dogmas into the Testimony of the Master by adding to his words.
John 8 Context:
John 8:12-28
12 Therefore again Ι̅Η spoke to them, saying, I am the light of the world: the one following me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of the life.
13 The Pharisees therefore said to him, You testify concerning yourself: your testimony is untrue.
14 Ι̅Η answered and said to them, Though I testify concerning myself, yet my testimony is true: for I know from where I came, and to where I go, but you cannot tell from where I come, and to where I go.
15 You judge after the flesh: I judge no one.
16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I myself, and my Sender, the Father.
17 And in the Torah, also pertaining unto you, it is written that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one testifying concerning myself, and my Sender, the Father, bears witness concerning me.
19 Then they said to him, Where is your father? Ι̅Η answered, You neither know me, nor my Father: if you had known me, you would have known my Father also.
20 These words Ι̅Η spoke in the treasury, as he taught in the temple, and no man laid hands on him: for his hour was not yet come.
21 Then Ι̅Η said again to them, I go my way, and you shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: where I go, you cannot come.
22 Then said the Yhudim, Will he kill himself? for he says, "Where I go, you cannot come".
23 And he said to them, You are from beneath, I am from above: you are of this world: I am not of this world.
24 I said therefore unto you, that you shall die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am ___ _____ __ ___ _____, you shall die in your sins.
25 Then they said to him, You are who? [for they recognized that he did not complete the "I am" statement]. And Ι̅Η said to them, That which I also said unto you at the commencement [John 8:12].
26 I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you: but the One having sent me is true, and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of Him.
27 They understood not that he spoke to them of the Father.
28 Then Ι̅Η said to them, When you have lifted up the Son of man, then shall you know that I am ___ _____ __ ___ _____, and that I do nothing of myself: but as my Father has taught me, I speak these things.
John 8:56-58
56 Your father Abraham exulted that he might see my day: and he saw it, and rejoiced. [Gen 22]
57 Then the Yhudim said to him, You are not yet fifty years old, and you have seen Abraham?
58 Ι̅Η said to them, Amen, amen, I say unto you, Before Abraham is done, I am ___ _____ __ ___ _____. [Gen 22:10-14]
"Before Abraham is done", (not "was" or "was born", see genesthai link here).
Abraham and the Ram
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John 13 Context:
John 13:13
13 You call me Teacher and Master: and you say well, for I am.
John 13:19
19 Now I tell you before it is done, [again, genesthai, see link posted above] that when it is come to pass, you may believe that I am [your Teacher and Master].
To call one your Master is not the same as truly believing that he is your Master: for true belief according to the way it is meant in the scripture is the kind of belief which brings about a change according to said belief, and which causes one to truly act upon said belief. Put away the dogmas and traditions of men and be taught of Elohim, as the Master says, quoting from the Prophets, (Jhn 6:45, Isa 54:13, Jer 31:34).
