8 days, the 8th day leading to a new beginning.

[Davy]

I’ll just say one thing here, although it is to be coupled intensely with what I have said to this point, that there is both a ‘now’ and a ‘not yet’ to all this that, again, you just won’t take hold of, for one reason or another, but… it is what it is.

Well, two… the final Judgment is yet to come, of course, but it will; we are expecting… see what I did there? <smile>… it.

Yeah I see what you did there, expecting what? You didn't say, you just left His salvation hanging. Jesus' 1st coming was to be the Perfect Sacrifice for sin, not to establish His physical Kingdom. And I showed you the John 18:36 verse where He said that His Kingdom is not of this world. Even the Zechariah 9:9-10 prophecy covers both His 1st coming meek as a Lamb to be crucified, and then His 2nd coming to reign over all nations and end the battle bow of this world. Do you realize what ending that battle bow even means?

1st Coming:
Zech 9:9-10
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

2nd Coming:
10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
KJV

That "battle bow" being cut off means the literal end of all war on earth when Jesus comes to take reign over all nations on earth. That's what the chariot from Ephraim and the horse from Jerusalem being cut off then means also. It's why Lord Jesus warned us in His Olivet discourse about the coming false-Messiah that is coming to play Christ, because the false-Messiah is going to end all wars during the time of "great tribulation". Jesus said so there in Matthew 24:6, because He said don't be concerned when we hear of wars and rumors of wars because the 'end' is not yet. The opposite of wars is a time of world peace, and that is what the coming false-Messiah is going to try and bring upon the earth just prior to Christ's return.

Will you then believe that supernatural false-Messiah that comes first is the REAL Jesus Christ, because he will cause all wars to stop when he comes like Jesus will actually do later? What was that you said about the salvation of the soul for those at the end of this world?

And it does; there are no “Christian nations.” Not in the sense you mean that in, anyway. But yes, there is a Christian nation… it is called Israel, and is the household of God, and includes people of all tongues, tribes, and people groups, and is being built by God even as we speak. <smile>

WOW! You are terribly... wrong about that. The United States of America began as a Christian nation, and it still is. It's the "synagogue of Satan" that controls much of America's media outlets that want us to think otherwise. God's Word is written all over the Christian nations of today. Kind of makes sense now just who you've been listening to, certainly not those who can recognize God's Plan with His ordaining the Western Christian nations of history.

And we are; as Paul says in Ephesians 2:5-6, we have been “made… alive together with Christ ~ by grace (we) have been saved ~ and raised… up with Him and seated… with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus…”

That's about our spirit inside our flesh body being "born again" by The Holy Spirit. It is an actual literal event, not some wishy-washy wanting or fairy tale. Our spirit and soul are of the Spirit realm, from God. Our flesh body is from the material matter of this earth. By Faith on Jesus Christ, our spirit/soul inside our flesh body is literally changed by being 'born from above' by The Holy Spirit. In the Greek that's what "born again" means, i.e., 'born from above'. To be spiritually dead means one who's spirit/soul has NOT been born from above by The Holy Spirit. This is why Paul said those who do not have The Holy Spirit are none of Christ's (Romans 8:8-11).

Well, yes, this is our faith in action. But surely not in any passive sense or of doing nothing, right?

Per Christ's warning to His servants for the end, our action is to 'watch' so as to not be deceived. Deception is the main battle for the end, not physical war with tanks and planes and such. And Jesus gave us specific SIGNS of the end to be watching for. But ideas like you said, that we should just trust in God to save us, means NO action on 'our' part, i.e., it wrongly suggests we have no need to watch like Jesus commanded us. And He did... command us at the end to WATCH. (Matt.25:13; Mark 13:37).

However, what have men's doctrines done with that idea? They have deceived congregations into thinking Christ's command for us to be watching those SIGNS of the end He gave in His Olivet discourse only mean 'to be ready' for His coming. They don't include what to watch, or what to be ready for except just Christ's future coming. The Biblical fact is, per Jesus, He showed us what to watch in order... to be ready for His coming. And it is so we would not be deceived and would remain a spiritual "chaste virgin" waiting on Him to come.

Everything God does is for His own glory. And you agree with this I think… but also that we may glory in Him. Yes?

There's that absolutism by men's doctrines again. No, I do not agree with glorying in God having to work evil during this world. It is necessary, and He does it (Isaiah 45:7), but it is only because Satan started evil, so God uses it for His Purposes during this present world. But no, I don't glory in Him having to do that, and He doesn't glory in it either, otherwise like Peter said wouldn't be true, that God is longsuffering regarding His promise toward us, and does not wish that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:8-9).

Well, negative from our perspective, yes. Which, again, is what I’ve been saying. So obviously I have, because this is what I’ve been saying.

That's not how I interpreted what you said.

Absolutely. And why is He able to do this? <smile> Because… He… reigns… <smile> he always has, and He always will.

But we are speaking of The Father with that, not His Son Jesus Christ IF... you believe only The Son came in the flesh and died on the cross and was resurrected. The Father has always been in control, nor can He ever NOT be in control. But with Lord Jesus Christ, different story, otherwise you have no salvation, because Jesus freely gave up His flesh for us as a sacrifice for sin for one and all time, and to defeat the devil for us. The Father was not born in the flesh to do that, The Son only. Yet even though Christ still is part of The Godhead also, and was doing the will of The Father.

Goodness gracious. <chuckles>

You’re an interesting person, Davy. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

Many brethren have yet to understand just what Satan did back in that old world, when God told us in Ezekiel 28 via His parable about the "king of Tyrus" as a type. The flesh king of Tyrus never was in God's Garden of Eden like that parable states, so what's the problem with those who do not believe that as written? They have defaulted to men's doctrines instead.

 

[Davy]

<chuckles> I mean yeah, but all unbelievers…

I wouldn't laugh at that, because I'll show you that He spoke that 'specifically' about the unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem for their children at the end of this world...

Luke 23:27-30
27 And there followed Him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented Him.

28 But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.'
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us;' and to the hills, 'Cover us'.
KJV

Jesus specifically spoke that to the Jews in Jerusalem (and their children) who wept for Him at His crucifixion. Thus the "spirit of slumber" Apostle Paul said God put on the majority of the Jews until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, is still in effect to this day, and will remain so until Lord Jesus' 2nd coming. It will be then that those deceived Jews in Jerusalem will say about Christ's elect Church that were not deceived, that idea from Isaiah 54, "Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck." That is a metaphor given to represent spiritual worship, either remaining a "chaste virgin" waiting for Christ Jesus to come, or instead falling away to worship the false-Messiah that comes first, and spiritually one's symbolic womb is not found barren by Christ when He does return afterwards. That's the metaphor, or allegory. And thus the unbelieving Jews when Jesus appears, will wish for the mountains to, "Fall on us", and for the hills to, "Cover us", representing their shame at rejecting Lord Jesus as The Christ-Messiah.

At Christ’s second coming, the time of tribulation will be over. The fullness of the Gentiles will have been brought into God’s Israel and the partial hardening now on Israel removed, and thus all God’s Israel will have been saved. This is what will bring this time of tribulation to a close and prompt Christ’s second coming.

You've added a doctrine of men to that. Apostle Paul quoted from Isaiah about God saving Israel, and the Isaiah Scripture is about the time when the scattered children of Israel are 'gathered' back to the holy lands of promise under Christ. That means on the 'day' of Christ's 2nd coming, not PRIOR to His coming within the trib like you said. The unbelieving Jews must go through their shame and mourning experience at seeing Christ coming in the clouds first, before they are saved by God forgiving them when they believe on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ.

Anyone… Jew or Gentile… who converts to Christ… is born again of the Spirit and therefore raised with Him and seated with Him in the heavenly places… and thus in Christ… will not “appear in”… or be put to… shame.

Then you had best tear out all the Scriptures where Jesus showed many will come to Him on that day of His return saying, "Lord, lord", claiming how they did many wonderful works in His Name, cast out demons in His Name, preached Him in their streets, but He will tell them to get away from Him, that He never knew them because they worked iniquity (Matt.7). Likewise with the five foolish virgins of Matthew 25 whom Jesus showed He will close the door upon at His coming, because they didn't have the spare vessel of the Oil (Holy Spirit). Like Paul also said, those who have not the Spirit of Christ are none of His. And that's about having the gift of The Holy Spirit. And Apostle Paul revealed in the Book of Acts that some believers had only John's baptism and didn't have The Holy Spirit. Thus there are 'claimed' believers that are only doing lip service that don't have The Holy Spirit rebirth in them, and they will be deceived unless they truly repent.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Daniel chapter 9 Says 70 weeks are DETERMINED for MESSIAH to make an End of Sin = Dan 9:24-27

JESUS completed the 70th week when on the Cross Saying: "It is FINISHED/COMPLETED"

Daniel 12:1-3 is the "LAST DAY" prophesied by Christ = In the LAST DAY, Christ Returns for the Resurrection of the Saints

Daniel 12:1-3 is the OT prophecy/prelude to Matthew chapter 24 and Revelation chapter 12 where Michael defeats Satan

“At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. = same as Revelation 12:7-9 below
There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time.
But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Then the wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness will shine like the stars forever and
ever.

And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

JESUS Returns at the LAST DAY = Gospel = John 6:44
Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves.
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

David, don't you know that what made an end of sins is the Spirit of Christ infilling a person? That has been going on for the last 2,000 years and is fast approaching the last day after the last Gentile is saved, and then the last week is dedicated for the saving of His elect, national Israel? Open your heart and mind and really think about it. Jesus came to take away our sin. He did so by sacrificing himself putting into effect His New Will and Testament/New Covenant! We are living in our inheritance. Being baptized with His Spirit is how we become new creatures in Him with a brand new nature free from sin. But we still have free will, but God's Spirit inside is what Adam never had making the laws written on our hearts easy to keep.

Curious - do you believe you still have a sin nature?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

How is the last week the 70th when the Scripture is CLEAR that Messiah is crucified in the 70th week.

AFTER 69 weeks MESSIAH will be "cur-off" - crucified

He's crucified at the end of the 69th week, leaving a gap. After all the next verse is 70 AD which is many "weeks" later, then another gap and then the 70th week as shown in chapter 7 and 12 is the last week of this world. In the gospels we see that the generation that sees all this will be the last generation. 1948 is when Israel became a nation and 1967 Jerusalem became controlled once again by Israel. I was born in 1947 and am seeing the signs of the times that I am part of that "last generation."

 

[David in NJ]

He's crucified at the end of the 69th week, leaving a gap. After all the next verse is 70 AD which is many "weeks" later, then another gap and then the 70th week as shown in chapter 7 and 12 is the last week of this world. In the gospels we see that the generation that sees all this will be the last generation. 1948 is when Israel became a nation and 1967 Jerusalem became controlled once again by Israel. I was born in 1947 and am seeing the signs of the times that I am part of that "last generation."

Sorry Charlie - that is not TRUTH

AFTER = say it 10 times = AFTER the 69th week brings us to the 70th week wherein Christ was cruicified in the Middle of the Week.

Say this 10 times also = 70 Weeks have been determined by GOD to make an End of SIN = IT is FINISHED/END of SIN on the CROSS

 

[David in NJ]

David, don't you know that what made an end of sins is the Spirit of Christ infilling a person? That has been going on for the last 2,000 years and is fast approaching the last day after the last Gentile is saved, and then the last week is dedicated for the saving of His elect, national Israel? Open your heart and mind and really think about it. Jesus came to take away our sin. He did so by sacrificing himself putting into effect His New Will and Testament/New Covenant! We are living in our inheritance. Being baptized with His Spirit is how we become new creatures in Him with a brand new nature free from sin. But we still have free will, but God's Spirit inside is what Adam never had making the laws written on our hearts easy to keep.

Curious - do you believe you still have a sin nature?

David, don't you know that what made an end of sins is the Spirit of Christ infilling a person?

FALSE

The "end of sin" was accomplished by the Lord Jesus Christ on the CROSS

Without the shedding of Blood there is NO forgiveness of sin" = Genesis, Exodus, Isaiah, Gospel , Hebrews 9:22 , Rom 9:5

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Sorry Charlie - that is not TRUTH

AFTER = say it 10 times = AFTER the 69th week brings us to the 70th week wherein Christ was cruicified in the Middle of the Week.

Say this 10 times also = 70 Weeks have been determined by GOD to make an End of SIN = IT is FINISHED/END of SIN on the CROSS

That verse is AFTER 70 AD, so you're not thinking straight.

What was finished was the ministry of death. A will and testament does not come into effect until after the death of the testator. And what is our inheritance? The end of sin. How? The baptism of fire.

Hebrews 9:15-17
15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.

Understand?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

FALSE

The "end of sin" was accomplished by the Lord Jesus Christ on the CROSS

Without the shedding of Blood there is NO forgiveness of sin" = Genesis, Exodus, Isaiah, Gospel , Hebrews 9:22 , Rom 9:5

Again, do you believe you have a sin nature? I'm very curious. From what you are saying that should be the case.

 

[David in NJ]

That verse is AFTER 70 AD, so you're not thinking straight.

What was finished was the ministry of death. A will and testament does not come into effect until after the death of the testator. And what is our inheritance? The end of sin. How? The baptism of fire.

Hebrews 9:15-17
15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.

Understand?

Please post the verse that you believe is after 70AD - thank you

 

[David in NJ]

Again, do you believe you have a sin nature? I'm very curious. From what you are saying that should be the case.

SIN was defeated on the Cross by and thru the Lord Jesus Christ.

Only our spirit has been sealed unto the Day of Redemption.

There is not a single saint, who after receiving Christ, did not sin.

The apostle Paul wrote that he still continued to do battle with the sin-nature that is in our flesh = Romans ch7

I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.
For in my inner being I delight in God’s law. But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me.

The apostle John wrote that if any saint commits a sin, we have JESUS as our Mediator to cleanse us from all unrighteousness(sin).
"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate before the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One." - 1 John 2:1


It is BEST you believe the words of Truth

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Please post the verse that you believe is after 70AD - thank you

And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

Romans, Titus the prince destroyed the sanctuary and it has never been rebuilt since.

 

[David in NJ]

And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

Romans, Titus the prince destroyed the sanctuary and it has never been rebuilt since.

Correct

70 weeks are determined by God to put an End to Sin = the Cross and Resurrection
Christ was crucified in the Middle of the 70th week.

We are still in the 70th week which will be completed once the Antichrist rises.

70AD is a foreshadow of that which is to come as prophesied in Daniel chapter 12 and Revelation chapter 12

 

[1stCenturyLady]

There is not a single saint, who after receiving Christ, did not sin.

What type of sin are you talking about? The type that a sin nature produced? Or the type that we still need to grow out of 2 Peter 5-11, but can and never stumble again.

The apostle Paul wrote that he still continued to do battle with the sin-nature that is in our flesh = Romans ch7

Romans 7:14-25 is about before Christ takes away our sins unto death from our sin nature causing us to be clean John 15:3, like those who knew the Law of Moses, Romans 7:1. But read verses 5-6 and see that the flesh is a thing of the past for those in the Spirit.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

VS.

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Those are UNDER the law, which we are not. See the next chapter Romans 8:2 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

In other words, Jesus has made me free from Romans 7:14-25

Understand?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Correct

70 weeks are determined by God to put an End to Sin = the Cross and Resurrection
Christ was crucified in the Middle of the 70th week.

We are still in the 70th week which will be completed once the Antichrist rises.

70AD is a foreshadow of that which is to come as prophesied in Daniel chapter 12 and Revelation chapter 12

No, the 70th week starts with the rise of the Antichrist. Read Rev. 12:12 and the first part of 13. By the way, Rev. 12:17 are Christians IN the Great Tribulation. The first half Israel is protected (the woman) and the Antichrist kills Gentile Christians. The second half he goes after all of Israel who is now saved too chapter 13 when the Antichrist continues...

 

[David in NJ]

What type of sin are you talking about? The type that a sin nature produced? Or the type that we still need to grow out of 2 Peter 5-11, but can and never stumble again.

Romans 7:14-25 is about before Christ takes away our sins unto death from our sin nature causing us to be clean John 15:3, like those who knew the Law of Moses, Romans 7:1. But read verses 5-6 and see that the flesh is a thing of the past for those in the Spirit.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

VS.

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Those are UNDER the law, which we are not. See the next chapter Romans 8:2 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

In other words, Jesus has made me free from Romans 7:14-25

Understand?

JESUS makes us FREE indeed.

Paul said that influence of sin remains in the world and in our flesh = it is contrary to backpedal to previous verses in an attempt to disavow this.

I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. 20And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law. 23But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me.

John also knows of the reality of the influence and presence of sin in the world and how it comes against the saints.

JESUS knows this and that is why HE is our Mediator on our behalf.

There will never be a sinless state of perfection on this earth while we are in these bodies that the power of sin remains on them = Death

Only our spirits are sinless AFTER we are Born-Again = Our spirits have been sealed by the Holy Spirit = NOT our flesh

 

[PinSeeker]

Wrong.

Again, we think very much the same thing about each other, here, Davy, concerning several things... <smile>

...Acts 2:33-36 Scripture, a popular one often quoted to try... and prove that Christ is now reigning...

Oh, there's no "trying" about it. It is what it is.

One must follow the 'context' of Bible Scripture...

Well, right, agreed, and I'm trying to redirect you to that.... <smile>

when that idea of 'redemption' is being mentioned. In Luke 21:28 Jesus used it about the day of His future 2nd coming when He will redeem His Church.

Well, right, but again, there is a very real sense in which we have been redeemed. This is the now-and-not-yet aspect of the Gospel (the good news, as you know). So, in this case, it is what it is and it will be what it will be.

You've missed what Revelation 20 actually says...

Yet again... right back atcha, Davy. If you don't see Christ's first coming in Revelation 20:1, then that kind of throws you off pretty much the rest of the way.

Continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

...the end of sin and death does not happen during the future Millennial reign by Christ and His elect.

The fact that I've said the millennial reign of Christ is not future only but a very present reality now... and that we are ruling with Him in the fact that we have been "made alive together with Christ ~ by grace we have been saved ~ and raised up with Him and seated with Him in the heavenly places" (Ephesians 2:5-6)... aside, I do agree that the end of sin and death does not happen during His millennial reign. You very clearly disagree that Christ is reigning now ~ although as clear as the Bible is, that is astounding... <smile> ~ but the fact that He is reigning now, and us in Him, but sin and death are still realities in this world, so yes, the end of sin and death will not come until Jesus returns and defeats it for good.

Only when the wicked are finally destroyed at the Final Judgment does death, the abode of hell, and the wicked, perish into the "lake of fire".

Well, right. So no, at least on this point, I agree with you on "what Revelation 20 actually says."

While the wicked are still here, it is NOT new heavens and a new earth timing yet. The wicked shall not 'see' the new heavens and a new earth.

I'm... not sure why you're compelled to say this, as I agree completely.

. Because God's Word contains Scripture showing the wicked will still... exist AFTER Christ's future return...

Right, but they will not be here. <smile> Well, initially they will, but after the final Judgment, they will not. <smile>

, that proves that time cannot be the new heavens and new earth. It's as simple as that.

Again, yes, the New Heaven and New Earth is after the final Judgment. Right... pretty simple... we agree on this... <smile>

If you're going to speak of Christ's 1st coming, which was to be meek as the Lamb Slain to die on the cross to defeat sin and the devil, then you have to also mention His future 2nd coming with a sword and His "rod of iron" when His 'literal' physical Kingdom will... be established upon this earth, as written.

I believe I have... <chuckles> Oh wait, sorry, I know I have... <smile>

You apparently have not noticed Revelation 19 that shows Christ's 2nd coming will not be like His 1st coming meek as a Lamb.

I have, many times... I agree...

...Lord Jesus at His 1st coming said His Kingdom is not of this world, meaning not of this present time...

Ah. "not of this world" and "not of this present time" are two very different things. In saying His kingdom is not of this world, Davy, He was affirming His present Kingship, but saying His Kingdom is not worldly but heavenly... of God. Because He was then and is now God. You know this; come on, man. If you don't... well, now you do. <smile>

His Kingdom is still future, is what He said.

Yet again... I agree, but He also said, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Matthew 4:17; 10:7). Not will be, Davy, but is. Is. So both are true. Read Jesus's parable in Matthew 13 again, Davy, the one where He likens the Kingdom to the mustard seed and the leaven... The Kingdom is here now, and growing toward fullness, when it will become a tree in which the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches. It is also like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened. Again, it is here now and growing to fullness... and will someday ~ when God's Israel is complete ~ be fully leavened. And then... Christ will return, finally and completely defeat Satan (and sin and death), and then (after the final Judgment) the Kingdom will be ushered in in its fullness.

The difference is that, as I have said, it is not here in its fullness yet. But it will be when Christ returns, and after the final defeat of Satan, and after the final Judgment.

Yeah I see what you did there, expecting what? You didn't say, you just left His salvation hanging.

<chuckles> "Expecting something..." That's... not what I meant... <smile>

The United States of America began as a Christian nation...

That some of the men who founded America were Christians has no bearing on whether the nation was or is Christian. The only real "Christian nation" is... God's Israel. <smile> Made up of true Jews of God's Israel, as Paul defines them in Romans 2:28-29.

That's about our spirit inside our flesh body being "born again" by The Holy Spirit.

Well, it's about us being made alive in spirit as well as body. It is a new birth by the Holy Spirit, yes, before which we were dead in our sin, like the rest of mankind, who are (but may not remain so, if the Spirit gives them new birth) spiritually dead. This is the natural human condition, taken on by Adam and Eve in Genesis 3 and passed down to all men/people. Sure. But we are then in Christ, and as such no longer subject to or bound for the second death, but rather eternal life...

It is an actual literal event...

Indeed.

Our spirit and soul are of the Spirit realm, from God.

Ohhhhh... boy.... Well, we are then of God, and no longer of our former father the devil... slaves to righteousness, as Paul puts it in Romans 5, no longer slaves to unrighteousness.

...ideas like you said, that we should just trust in God to save us, means NO action on 'our' part...

I didn't say that. It may be, somehow, what you took from... something... I did say, but I did not say that.

...No, I do not agree with glorying in God having to work evil during this world.

That's... not even remotely what I said or implied. Goodness gracious.

...God uses it for His Purposes during this present world.

Agreed; I've said this several times...

The Father has always been in control, nor can He ever NOT be in control.

Of course.

But with Lord Jesus Christ, different story, otherwise you have no salvation, because Jesus freely gave up His flesh for us as a sacrifice for sin for one and all time, and to defeat the devil for us. The Father was not born in the flesh to do that, The Son only. Yet even though Christ still is part of The Godhead also, and was doing the will of The Father.

Sure. This was His purpose, the purpose for which He came and lived His life here on earth... to accomplish our redemption. And it was the will of the Father, absolutely. For a time, He ~ as Paul says ~ "did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men... humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the Name that is above every name..." Which is to say, because of what He did for us, because that work is complete, and He has ascended to heaven and is seated at the right hand of God... He reigns. <smile> Now. <smile> And that's most definitely something to smile about...

Continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

Goodness. How long, O Lord? <smile>

I wouldn't laugh at that...

I'm chuckling at... well, not all, but some... of the things you're saying and apparently think... <smile> And it's not always the same chuckle, if that makes sense... it depends on your context... <smile>

...He spoke that 'specifically' about the unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem for their children at the end of this world...

No need; I agree, but by extension He's talking about all unbelievers. Just like when He's speaking to His disciples, by extension, He's speaking to all of His sheep, which includes you and me.

Apostle Paul quoted from Isaiah about God saving Israel...

Right, God's Israel, which consists at any given time of all whom He has called to Himself, Jew and Gentile alike. Again, Paul has defined who God's Israel is, and thus who are true Jews of God, in Romans 2:28-29 ~ "...no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical... a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God."

, and the Isaiah Scripture is about the time when the scattered children of Israel are 'gathered' back to the holy lands of promise under Christ. That means on the 'day' of Christ's 2nd coming, not PRIOR to His coming within the trib like you said.

On the day of Christ's second coming, the period of tribulation will have ended... the conclusion of this period is what prompt's Christ's return. This is what I've said many times. And in case it hasn't been clear... it has, but I'll say it again here just for you, Davy... this period of tribulation is synonymous with God's millennium, the "thousand years" of Revelation 20:4-6, the time in which the first resurrection has taken place and over/throughout which we, individually, come to share in it and thus are blessed.

The unbelieving Jews must go through their shame and mourning experience at seeing Christ coming in the clouds first, before they are saved by God forgiving them when they believe on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ.

When Christ comes, all who are going to believe ~ Jew or Gentile ~ will have believed.

Then you had best tear out all the Scriptures where Jesus showed many will come to Him on that day of His return saying, "Lord, lord", claiming how they did many wonderful works in His Name, cast out demons in His Name, preached Him in their streets, but He will tell them to get away from Him, that He never knew them because they worked iniquity (Matt.7). Likewise with the five foolish virgins of Matthew 25 whom Jesus showed He will close the door upon at His coming, because they didn't have the spare vessel of the Oil (Holy Spirit). Like Paul also said, those who have not the Spirit of Christ are none of His.

All of which is to say exactly what I said above, that when Christ comes, all who are going to believe, Jew or Gentile, will have believed. The time of tribulation will have ended... and the end will come as in the days of Noah, suddenly and without warning. Yes, there will be many who thought they were Christ's and thought they did good works for Him but are not and never did. The ones who Jesus never knew, as in Matthew 7, are the same ones on His left in the final Judgment in Matthew 25:31-46.

Always interesting talking to you, Davy... <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Davy.

 

[David in NJ]

Again, we think very much the same thing about each other, here, Davy, concerning several things... <smile>


Oh, there's no "trying" about it. It is what it is.


Well, right, agreed, and I'm trying to redirect you to that.... <smile>


Well, right, but again, there is a very real sense in which we have been redeemed. This is the now-and-not-yet aspect of the Gospel (the good news, as you know). So, in this case, it is what it is and it will be what it will be.


Yet again... right back atcha, Davy. If you don't see Christ's first coming in Revelation 20:1, then that kind of throws you off pretty much the rest of the way.

Continued...

You gave me a gut-buster with:

Again, we think very much the same thing about each other, here, Davy, concerning several things... <smile>

FYI - Christ's first Coming is in the Gospel

In contrast, Revelation begins with the fact that His 1st Coming was Completed with Revelation focusing on His 2nd Coming

 

[Davy]

Again, we think very much the same thing about each other, here, Davy, concerning several things... <smile>

Doesn't matter what we think of each other. What matters is whether we as believers on Jesus Christ heed His and His Apostles warnings about the events leading up to His future return. As I said, there are supernatural events coming upon this earth at the end which the majority are not prepared for spiritually.

Oh, there's no "trying" about it. It is what it is.

Can't just read that Acts 2:34-35 passage by itself; it goes with what Apostle Paul was covering in 1 Cor.15:24-28 that Christ must reign over all his enemies until they are made His footstool. That's how that Acts 2:34-35 passage is meant. So why am I having to explain this? since you well know this point already, and I have to point it out to you anyway?? It's not a good idea to sway what God's Word says just because you may want to be right and win an argument.

Well, right, agreed, and I'm trying to redirect you to that.... <smile>

You haven't tried to redirect me to anything.

You vainly ATTEMPTED to use that 'redemption' idea to establish the doctrine of man that wrongly believes Christ's Kingdom is of this present world when Jesus said it is not. But I showed how God's Word easily counters that false doctrine you follow because of how Paul's 'redemption' idea is also used about the gathering of the saints at Christ's future 2nd coming.

Well, right, but again, there is a very real sense in which we have been redeemed. This is the now-and-not-yet aspect of the Gospel (the good news, as you know). So, in this case, it is what it is and it will be what it will be.

Hello, is there anybody in there?? Because Paul used the 'redemption' idea ALSO about the day of Christ gathering His Church at His future 2nd coming, that means you CANNOT use 'redemption' to prove men's doctrine that Christ's Kingdom is now and that He is reigning over all nations now.

Here's another Scripture example of what I'm talking about...

Rom 8:18-19
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
KJV

Even God's creation today awaits for the manifestation of the sons of God. That means that manifesting is still expecting today. Yet Apostle John said 'now' we are the "sons of God". So how's that?

Like many times in God's written Word, we MUST read ALL of the relevant Scripture... to get the whole Message...

1 John 3:2
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.
KJV

That means the manifesting of the "sons of God" involves the redemption of our spiritual body, the type body of the resurrection that Apostle Paul taught, which is the future glorious body that is redeemed at Christ's 2nd coming.

Rom 8:22-25
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

The "body" Paul is actually pointing to is our "spiritual body" of 1 Cor.15:45-50, the type body of the world to come. That is why Paul says above "even we ourselves groan within ourselves", because he is speaking of how our "spiritual body" that dwells inside our flesh shell seeks to be released from the same idea of 'bondage' that Paul speaks of here about the creation. God placed this 2nd world earth age creation into "bondage of corruption" Paul said there in Romans 8:20-21. And that involves our spirit/soul being put in bondage also to the flesh during this present world.

Now those brethren who can't fathom this from what Paul is saying there because they want to believe they are made up of flesh and nothing else, I can't help them, they will remain deceived about this future redemption until their flesh dies, or until Lord Jesus returns.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
KJV

We today still... dwell in HOPE of Christ's coming Salvation. That is what Paul is speaking about there. That means we do NOT SEE IT YET TODAY. The glory of Christ's Kingdom is NOT what you are SEEING in this world today. You are STILL SEEING CORRUPTION in the world today. To deny that is to bury your head in the sand and lie to yourself.

Yet again... right back atcha, Davy. If you don't see Christ's first coming in Revelation 20:1, then that kind of throws you off pretty much the rest of the way.

Continued...

Nah... you cannot just throw out false accusations like that just because I disagree with you.

I have shown you plenty of Bible Scripture already, yet you still deny the DIFFERENCE between this present world and the world to come when Jesus returns in the near future. Today, only His Kingdom of The SPIRIT has come for this present world, manifested through His Church. But His ACTUAL Kingdom involves MUCH MORE GLORY THAN YOU APPARENTLY CAN EVEN IMAGINE, and is NOT manifest on earth yet today. It will only come at His future 2nd coming, and THAT is WHEN the manifesting of the sons of God will happen.

So you can continue to glory in this PRESENT WORLD, I instead will still HOPE in the world to come when Lord Jesus returns to END this present world which is NOT His future Kingdom.