Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

[GodsGrace]

The creeds were written by men, not be God.

Who was the New Testament written by?

 

[GodsGrace]

Let's get some scholarly input on what it means to be "manifested in the flesh"

View attachment 74663
View attachment 74664

LOL
I never would have thought that we'd need scholarly input to understand what
MANIFESTED means !

But I guess we do.

 

[GodsGrace]

It depends on the definition of the word "Christian". And on what the label is supposed to tell others about the individual. I also find it quite confusing when somebody with the label Christian starts to talk that Jesus is not God etc.

For the safety of newcomers, who come to learn about Christianity, the label is dangerous if used by some sectarian. As I noticed here that Jehovah Witnesses do and hide their true background, even evading direct questions about it. New people could get trapped into some cult this way.

What a great point !
Thanks HealthyShape.

Absolutely the label is supposed to mean something.
It's supposed to mean what the early Christians, beginning with the Apostles, wanted it to mean.

The red text, composed from the Nicene and Athanasian creeds (I guess), is of course not a direct/explicit quote from the Bible.

Yes sir.
Creeds were created EXACTLY for the reason you've proferred....
to correct heresies spreading in the early church...to put an end to them...
to explain WHAT exactly Christianity believes.

Then we hear that the creeds were not written by men.
But the heresies were being circulated BY MEN....
and so MEN had to put an end to them.

And all heresies spoke AGAINST the New Testament teachings.

 

[GodsGrace]

The whole reason trinitarians must resort to such rationalizations is precisely because there is not a trinity verse* in Scripture. Otherwise they'd just refer to it. We can rationalize what day Eve was created, which is different from simply quoting the verse that says Adam was created on Day 6.

The above is not for me...but I gave you two within the past hour.

Trinitarians take it many steps further. Despite what Scripture says - and doesn't say on the matter - they invent this threat or rejection criteria (@GodsGrace used the term "allowed." Allow is the language of power, not persuasion.)

I'm not here to PURSUADE you Wrangler.
I'm here to instruct you as to the meaning of the word CHRISTIAN.

It is not up to YOU to determine the meaning of the word.
The meaning has already been established by those that knew Jesus, came to the conclusion of WHO He was, and passed the information on.

You're not even a Christian if you don't embrace this rationalization of what day Eve was created. In fact, you are not even saved if you don't embrace this rationalization of what day Eve was created. The hellfires await you if you don't embrace this rationalization of what day Eve was created. It begs the question of why they are so doctrinally invested in their manmade rationalization? (It's because there is not a trinity verse among other reasons)

Again,,,I gave you two.
It is YOU that is not following orthodox Christianity.
It is YOU who does not see the Trinity in the scriptures.

You believe Jesus is not God?
Can a person that is not God raise themselves from the dead?

Such a sentiment is not in Scripture. In fact, it goes against the sentiment in Scripture; 2 Corinthians 3:17 where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

So are you saying that you're FREE to do whatever you want to do?
This would make you into a FOOLISH MAN which Jesus spoke of in

Matthew 7:26-27
26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27 "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell -and great was its fall."


Do you not act on the words of Jesus?
Only foolish men do not act on the words of Jesus.

This affirms what an old Pastor observed in a video when he finally came to reject the trinity; the trinity does not produce the fruit of the spirit. They really have no answer to the observation that everyone uses the phrase "I am" - it doesn't make them God and was never a claim of deity. (They merely move the goal post, others thought as they do. It reminds me other Mother's question. If others jumped off a bridge, would you?)

GOD said He was called I AM.
EXodus 3

JESUS said before Abraham was I AM.


This is a little different than stating:
I AM THE GATE
I AM THE WAY
I AM THE TRUTH
etc.

God himself did not use that term to indicate he is God.

Actually, those WITH JESUS at the time DID believe He was saying that He is God:
They wanted to stone Jesus for blasphemy.


John 8:56-59
56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
57 So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.


BEFORE Abraham was....I AM

They picked up stones to throw at Him.
Same as when Caiaphas tore his robes because Jesus declared Himself to be God...
a blasphemy.


Matthew 26:64-66
64 Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter * you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."
65 Then the high priest tore his robes and said, "He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have now heard the blasphemy;
66 what do you think?" They answered, "He deserves death!"

Rather he used a phrase the VOICE translation succinctly renders "eternal," as his unique and defining characteristic. The Hebrew term strictly translated is cumbersome, "was, am and am becoming." Jesus never applied this cumbersome expression to himself.

Jesus said HE WAS THE I AM.
Read the NT instead of "the voice"..whatever that is.

Jesus said
I AM

WHO was He referring to according to you?
Jesus said.
BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS...
I AM.

Meaning He is eternal.

Eternal is a great translation and certainly does not apply to Jesus, who we know was a man who was born and died - like any other man. Death indicates the precise opposite of being eternal.

Jesus was 100% man
and 100% divine.

You don't believe this because you're not a christian.
Christians believe Jesus was fully human and fully divine.

He was born,
died and resurrcted.

His resurrection was proof that He is God.
No other man has ever resurrected Himself.

If you think Jesus is like ANY OTHER MAN...
you truly are far from orthodox christianity and should change the title under your avatar.

It's almost as if trinitarians start with their conclusion and rationalize it at every turn. What would IDOLATRY look like again? Why would Christ followers teach what Jesus did not?

Here is what idolatry looks like Wrangler:

YOU said:

JESUS IS JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER MAN.

Then why do you idolize Him?

* To be clear, when I write that the trinity is not found anywhere in Scripture, I mean that neither the word nor the concept of the trinity is explicitly in the Bible. To avoid the inevitable Appeal to Strawman, there simply is no verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever. If there were such a verse, it would be the most quoted verse in Scripture by those who claim one’s salvation depends on believing it. The concept of the trinity is so important that in 66 books, it is not mentioned once!

Unfortunately for you, the NT was written by others...
and they UNDERSTOOD the Hebrew and Greek language and they KNEW what Jesus taught...
and they EXPERIENCED Him come back to life.

How YOU THINK scripture should have been written has no bearing on anything.

 

[HealthyShape]

The WORD/Jesus is Elohim, His FATHER is Elohim, the Holy Spirit is Elohim

I do not think that using Hebrew terms is useful or clarifying, outside of the ancient Hebrew culture.

That is probably why the New Testament never uses them. These terms are also never used in Christian creeds.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus is the name of a Person who was born 2 thousand years ago.
WHO this Person is was understood by the Apostles

Odd mystical separation of the person who was born 2,000 years ago (capitalization not required as ‘person’ is a common noun).

Each Gospel emphatically proclaims who this person is, God’s anointed. Nothing more. Nothing less.

And this person has a name that is not the name of the one true God of Scripture.

The office of POTUS may be occupied by a different person every 4 years, the office of God’s anointed is an eternal appointment. Yet, Jesus became the son of God, which means not eternally so. See the difference?

 

[Wrangler]

I'm here to instruct you as to the meaning of the word CHRISTIAN.

Lots of humility in that post.

 

[Wrangler]

Can a person that is not God raise themselves from the dead?

Not even God can raise himself from the dead. This is because God cannot die.

Scripture does not say that Christ raised himself but that God raised him. Romans 10:9.

 

[HealthyShape]

Each Gospel emphatically proclaims who this person is, God’s anointed. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Read the gospel of John, even the very first chapter is clearly a witness that Jesus is God, the Logos in flesh. In the next chapters you can read that He came from heaven etc.

 

[Wrangler]

GOD said He was called I AM.
EXodus 3

False. I already explained this. Dig into the actual words, you will find God said he is eternal, cumbersomely expressed as more than “I am” but “I was, am and am becoming.”

Everyone says I am. Doesn’t mean they are God OR are claiming to be God.

 

[David in NJ]

I do not think that using Hebrew terms is useful or clarifying, outside of the ancient Hebrew culture.

That is probably why the New Testament never uses them. These terms are also never used in Christian creeds.

a.) God created all things for His glory
b.) all languages created by God
c.) Hebrew language is deep, rich and trustworthy
d.) New Testament not in Hebrew to fulfill prophecy
e.) The Scripture is not subject to "creeds"
f.) the Scripture is Truth = "Thy word is truth"
g.) the Holy Spirit is needed to know Truth

 

[Wrangler]

Read the gospel of John

Exactly! John states his purpose at 20:31 is for us to know Jesus is the Christ. Not God incarnate. Read that.

Stop extreme eisegesis for prologue to mean other than what John stated his purpose to be.

 

[Wrangler]

It is YOU that is not following orthodox Christianity.

Agreed. This is the line of demarcation. Trinitarians wand to limit what it means to be a Christian to equal being a trinitarian. They call it orthodoxy.

I follow the plan text of Scripture, not what trinitarians tell me how I should interpret it 4 centuries later.

The title of this thread and world view should be those who don’t believe Jesus is God shouldn’t call themselves orthodox Christians.

 

[amigo de christo]

Great point !
What could be plainer than when John states that THE WORD WAS WITH GOD AND THE WORD WAS GOD. John 1:1

I really don't know why ANY other scripture is needed when it is finished off with John 1:14
AND THE WORD BECAME FLESH.

And some want to state that the Trinity was "invented" after hundreds of years.

Some persons claim to believe the words in the NT....
but it would seem that they do not.

while it is true that the GODHEAD can be a bit complex to understand in the beginning .
WHAT I ALSO KNEW way back then and even now still do know .
WHY ON EARTH WOULD ANYONE have twisted and omitted ANY PART of the SCRIPTURES .
In other words
WHEN i first read Where JOHN stated tthe WORD was with GOD and the WORD was GOD . I BELEIVED IT as wri tten .
I also beleived where JESUS said the FATHER is greater than I .
I did not understand , BUT I STILL BELEIEVED what was written .
Then in time I was given understanding .
HOWEVER tell me . HOW ON earth is anyone ever gonna get understanding
IF THEY TWIST AND OMIT what is already WRITTEN . THEY WONT , in fact they are running too and flirting with BLASPHEMY
and know it not .
I DONT need to chANGE the scriptures to fit my understanding
I NEED ONLY BELEIVE what is written and GOD giveth understanding of things IN TIME . THA TSIMPLE . that SIMPLE
BUT WOE unto any and unto all WHO TWIST and omit THEM WORDS
in order to fit ANYTHING . WE should simply BELEIVE what is written , NOT CHANGE what is written .

 

[Grailhunter]

In order to be defined as Christian, you must believe what CHRISTIANS believe.

Which Christians?

Orthodoxy….The Roman Catholic Church was into orthodoxy and they persecuted, tortured, and murdered in that pursuit. Belief control and promoting prescribed beliefs.

Now with over 30,000 Protestant denominations the term orthodoxy has lost it meaning.

Orthodoxy has always been wrong thinking. Better to know the truth rather than a popular belief or belief prescribed by men. And one of the greatest enemies of truth is false beliefs.

How many believe in the 3 in 1 formula for the Trinity, which is false?

How many people believe that the ten summaries in chapter 20 of Exodus are the Ten Commandments when the Ten Commandments are in chapter 34 of Exodus.

How many believe the Ten Commandments and the Mosaic Law pertain to Christians?

How many believe in the doctrine of Original Sin?

How many believe that Baptism is just for show?

How many believe that the Bread and Wine ritual is optional for Christians? Or that it is not a miracle in itself.

How many believe that charity and Good Deeds are optional for Christians?

How many people believe the scriptures say you have to have a wedding ceremony to be married?

How many people believe that polygamy and concubinage and slavery was ended by the scriptures?

Polygamy and concubinage and slavery was ended much later and it was the Protestants that made a church wedding a requirement to be married. All good stuff.

How many support the second rate status of women?

How many believe that sex married or not is dirty, nasty, and sinful?

Sometimes false beliefs come in the form of doctrines and sometimes in the form of theological words like fornication. The word has a long history and because part of its definition indicates that sex before marriage is always a sin it condemns most of the people in the Old Testament and those before the 16th century because back then you had to have sex to be married. And it hides a very important fact. If you have censual sex….you are married and the next person you have sex with constitutes adultery. Yahweh intended for sex to form loving bonds, marriages, and family.

False beliefs are powerful and they have been around for a long time and can corrupt how you understand the scriptures. And they act as a mind control shifter. Your eyes read one thing and shifter twists it up and delivers to your mind as another thing. Sometimes it is very difficult to rescue someone from false beliefs because scriptures do not matter to them. If you have ever worked with a Jehovah's Witness you will see the extreme example of this. Truly as Christ knew the power of false beliefs and said….They have eyes but they cannot see and they ears but they cannot hear.

For example on the beliefs that the Trinity is 3 in 1 or that it is a Godhead of 3 Gods. I don’t care. If the scriptures supported the 3 in 1 formula I would agree but there are over a hundred scriptures that prove that there are 3 Gods by name. Very few beliefs have that much support by the scriptures. And the 3 in 1 formula skews the meaning of so many scriptures.

And if Yahweh would have said...Yeshua and I created the heavens and earth I would agree. But the whole rewriting history thing....no.

The Gnostics really had no use for Yahweh and contributed every thing to Yeshua. I am not Gnostic.

 

[David in NJ]

Exactly! John states his purpose at 20:31 is for us to know Jesus is the Christ. Not God incarnate. Read that.

Stop extreme eisegesis for prologue to mean other than what John stated his purpose to be.

Immanuel = God with us

 

[HealthyShape]

Exactly! John states his purpose at 20:31 is for us to know Jesus is the Christ. Not God incarnate. Read that.

Stop extreme eisegesis for prologue to mean other than what John stated his purpose to be.

John has more verses than 20:31. Why do you want to ignore the rest? Yes, Jesus is Christ, but this is not all John ever wrote about Him.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Jesus being just a man is not a Christian idea

Are you saying Ben Franklin wasn't Christian?

 

[amigo de christo]

Which Christians?

Orthodoxy….The Roman Catholic Church was into orthodoxy and they persecuted, tortured, and murdered in that pursuit. Belief control and promoting prescribed beliefs.

Now with over 30,000 Protestant denominations the term orthodoxy has lost it meaning.

Orthodoxy has always been wrong thinking. Better to know the truth rather than a popular belief or belief prescribed by men. And one of the greatest enemies of truth is false beliefs.

How many believe in the 3 in 1 formula for the Trinity, which is false?

How many people believe that the ten summaries in chapter 20 of Exodus are the Ten Commandments when the Ten Commandments are in chapter 34 of Exodus.

How many believe the Ten Commandments and the Mosaic Law pertain to Christians?

How many believe in the doctrine of Original Sin?

How many believe that Baptism is just for show?

How many believe that the Bread and Wine ritual is optional for Christians? Or that it is not a miracle in itself.

How many believe that charity and Good Deeds are optional for Christians?

How many people believe the scriptures say you have to have a wedding ceremony to be married?

How many people believe that polygamy and concubinage and slavery was ended by the scriptures?

Polygamy and concubinage and slavery was ended much later and it was the Protestants that made a church wedding a requirement to be married. All good stuff.

How many support the second rate status of women?

How many believe that sex married or not is dirty, nasty, and sinful?

False beliefs are powerful and they have been around for a long time and can corrupt how you understand the scriptures. Best to seek the truth.

For example on the beliefs that the Trinity is 3 in 1 or that it is a Godhead of 3 Gods. I don’t care. If the scriptures supported the 3 in 1 formula I would agree but there are over a hundred scriptures that prove that there are 3 Gods by name. Very few beliefs have that much support by the scriptures. And the 3 in 1 formula skews the meaning of so many scriptures.

And if Yahweh would have said...Yeshua and I created the heavens and earth I would agree. But the whole rewriting history thing....no.

The Gnostics really had no use for Yahweh and contributed every thing to Yeshua. I am not Gnostic.

Lots of questions asked my friend . GOOD .
but here is the simple truth .
And its very simple . SO simple even a babe could have grasped it .
The other wrote what CHRISTAINS beleive
and you RIGHTLY said WHAT christains , the RCC , the orthodox , the etc .
HERE IS the simple answer to sum up what a real christain believes . And though specially in the beginnig
might not understand it all , HE DARN SURE BLEIEVES IT ALL .
ITS called THE BIBLE . What JESUS actually said , what was actuallly recorded in the gospels
and later in acts , and in the le tters of the apostels , ALL the letters , SAID .
THEY BELEIVE what is written . THEY DO NOT ADD TO , take from and omit ANYTHING . THEY BLEIEVE as do a child .
The more they read the more they learn and grow , AS IT IS GOD WHO FEEDS THEM by HIS SPIRIT
and gives UNDERSTAND and WISDOM , knowledge by HIS SPIRIT .
IN O THER WORDS they dont sit under men WHO HAVE TO omit and twist things written
IN ORDER TO SEDUCE THIS PEOPLE . THEY as a child BELEIVE TRUTH , THEY BLEIEVE what is written . NOT what is twisted .

 

[amigo de christo]

Immanuel = God with us

please read post 535
then read post 539
Many good questions did this writer of 535 ask
And 539 sums up exactly what a christain beleives .
Now do feel free to correct me if you beleive me to be in error .
BUT know this , I S TAND on it my friend . SHEEP do not twist any scriptures to fit what they desire to hear
OR what they leaders twisted unto them .
THEY SIMPLY BELIEVE WHAT IS WRIT TEN in the bible .
OH they might not understand all , BUT TEHY SURE DO BELEIVE ALL . AND in time
the understanding and wisdom of GOD given them by the SPIRIT , WHO HAS PUT THEM into such a l ovely book
for to learn grow and to love THE TRUTH , WILL SURELY be revealed to them more and more as they continue
to love the T RUTH and to read the scrips for themselves .
JESUS DOES HAVE THE SHEEP .
AND HIS little stones added in BY FAITH IN HE AND IN HE ALONE
GONNA POINT TO THE VERY WORDS INSPIRED BY THIS ONE AND GREAT CHIEF CORNER STONE
upon which all else was added . FOR THIS CAUSE WAS I BORN
and for this re ason came i into the world , TO testify of ............................drum roll please .............................THE TRUTH .
THE TRUTH . THE TRUTH
and all who are of the TRUTH hear MY VOICE . And as you know my friend , I PROMISE
not even the smallest of lies IS OF THE TRUTH . EVERY WORD OF GOD ALLL MIGHTY IS TRUTH . I KNOW THAT .
And i KNOW HIS GOD INSPIRED HOLY BOOK , called the bible IS LOADED WITH TRUTH .
TRUTH that the sheep will NOT TWIST , WILL NOT OMIT , WILL NOT ADD TOO OR TAKE FROM
BUT ONLY BELEIVE . to the trenches david , i have come to declare war against the unholy cup of a harlot
and to expose her and all who do her bidding and WE Shall POINT ONLY TO JESUS CHRIST .