Rapture ... soon?

[Marilyn C]

You come across as if you believe that God did not cast away the people of Israel away permanently, but only temporarily. Is that what you're intending to say? If so, that is not AT ALL what Paul was saying in Romans 11:1. He was saying that God did not cast away His people that He foreknew at all (not even temporarily) and the evidence Paul gave for that was himself and the rest of the elect remnant of believers of his day.

For the people of Israel to have come through so many trying to kill them off is testament to God looking after them as a people. God put their purpose on hold till the Body of Christ is complete.

Yes, Paul does show that and then further on `And so all Israel will be saved,...` (Rom. 11: 26)

 

[Marilyn C]

This is horrible false teaching. There is only one gospel. The gospel of the kingdom is the gospel of Christ and it is the good news that Jesus Christ died and rose again from the dead to give the opportunity of eternal life to all in the world who believe in Him! You are preaching a false gospel! Here is what Paul says about that...

Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

The only `good news` that Israel knew was that their Messiah would come and set up His rule through them. Jesus had not died, risen or ascended or been made Head of the Body by the Father. That revelation was not given till later to the Apostle Paul.

Our good news is more than what Israel knew. And that is what is written to the Body of Christ.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Here is the part I was pondering;
Postribbers say recklessly, without any thought, that half the planet is taken to destruction. ( one taken, one left

It would seem that if you applied one taken and one left, that 50 percent of the population is taken and 50% destroyed. We cannot use just one scripture to figure this out.
Starting with the Seals, the numbers of dead amount to 25 % just from the first four seals. That's two billion ( if we were not yet taken). Currently, Christians number 2.7 billion, ( 1/3 of the population). And so we would also suffer death.
Then later on at the sixth trumpet, four angels are released to destroy 1/3 of mankind ( Rev. 9:14-15) and so out of the 6 billion remaining, another two billion die. If we were not yet taken by then, that's half the population dead. Now it does not follow that if Jesus had not arrived yet, that half of the Christians would suffer this fate. These wars, famines, catastrophes can afflict certain parts of the world like Russia, China, India and particularly the Middle East ( actually scripture does say at one point, that 1/3 of the planet is on fire). Not to imply Europe, the America's, etc., won't suffer judgment, we see that we already are. We all suffered from the pandemic! We are not immune to pain, suffering and death - never have been. But God has a way of protecting whom He chooses to protect at times.
Still, if the last trumpet is #7, it could be a 50% ratio of the 4 billion left, given some of us suffered death.
The other thing is, Jesus' warning is heard by Christians, the rest of the world does not believe, nor do they watch or wait for His coming, nor are they ready. The message has always been for those who believe. He comes as a thief to unbelievers.
However, of those left behind, it does not follow that they are all destroyed, because then who would repopulate the planet, since by then ( if one believed that), all Christians would be resurrected, given eternal bodies which do not procreate.
???
And in the Millennial Kingdom, there are births and deaths. So evidently, some are protected and make it to Day 1335 as stated in Daniel 12:12..On this day, it's over, the Great Tribulation ( including the Seven Bowls of God's wrath) is over and peace has arrived.
Btw, Isaiah confirms births in the MK, harmony, love and peace and life extended for hundreds of years.

Isaiah 11:4-5, which speaks of the Messiah's righteous rule, and Isaiah 11:6-9, which details the transformation of nature and the peace between animals. Other key verses include Isaiah 65:17-25, which presents a vision of a renewed earth with long life, and Isaiah 65:20, specifically mentioning that those who don't reach 100 will be thought accursed.
So in Paradise reborn, death and sin has not yet been completely abolished, but has been let's say miraculously suppressed, as if a cancer on earth has gone into remission for a long time.

So...the dilemma is, under that false theory, Jesus told those doomed to destruction, and taken, to "watch and be ready"?????
Huh????

As you can see, the above explanation puts quite a different spin on their "dilemma".

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The only `good news` that Israel knew was that their Messiah would come and set up His rule through them. Jesus had not died, risen or ascended or been made Head of the Body by the Father. That revelation was not given till later to the Apostle Paul.

Our good news is more than what Israel knew.

Correct, they meshed all Messianic prophecy together as if there was only one coming. They expected Him to come as a Lion and conquering King the first time around, not a suffering servant who would die.

 

[rebuilder 454]

It would seem that if you applied one taken and one left, that 50 percent of the population is taken and 50% destroyed. We cannot use just one scripture to figure this out.
Starting with the Seals, the numbers of dead amount to 25 % just from the first four seals. That's two billion ( if we were not yet taken). Currently, Christians numbers 2.7 billion, ( 1/3 of the population). And so we would also suffer death.
Then later on at the sixth trumpet, four angels are released to destroy 1/3 of mankind ( Rev. 9:14-15) and so out of the 6 billion remaining, another two billiin die. If we were not yet taken by then, that's half the population dead - if Jesus has not arrived. Now it does not follow that if Jesus had not arrived yet, that half of the Christians would suffer this fate. These wars, famines, catastrophes can afflict certain parts of the world like Russia, China, India and particularly the Middle East ( actually scripture does say at one point, that 1/3 of the planet is on fire). Not to imply Europe, the America's, etc., won't suffer judgment, we see thay we already are. We all suffered from the pandemic! We are not immune tibpain and suffering and death - never have been. But God has a way of protecting whom He choses to protect at times.
Still, if the last trumpet is #7, it could be a 50% ratio of the 4 billion left, given some of us suffered death.
The other thing is, Jesus' warning is heard by Christians, the rest of the world does not believe, nor do they watch or wait for His coming, nor are they ready. The message has always been for those who believe. He comes as a thief to unbelievers.
However, of those left behind, it does not follow that the are all destroyed, because then who would repopulate the planet, since by then ( if one believed that), all Christians would be resurrected, given eternal bodies which do not procreate.
???
And in the Millennial Kingdom, there are births and deaths. So evidently, some are protected and make it to Day 1335 as stated in Daniel 12:12..On this day, it's over, the Great Tribulation ( including the Seven Bowls of God's wrath) is over and peace has arrived.
Btw, Isaiah confirms births in the MK, harmony, love and peace and life extended for hundreds of years.

Isaiah 11:4-5, which speaks of the Messiah's righteous rule, and Isaiah 11:6-9, which details the transformation of nature and the peace between animals. Other key verses include Isaiah 65:17-25, which presents a vision of a renewed earth with long life, and Isaiah 65:20, specifically mentioning that those who don't reach 100 will be thought accursed.
So in Paradise reborn, death and sin has not yet been completely abolished, but has been let's say miraculously suppressed, as if a cancer on earth has gone into remission for a long time.

As you can see, the above explanation puts quite a different spin on their "dilemma".

You 100% MISS the point.
THE BIBLE SAYS....not me....half are taken.

So what do POSTRIBBERS do with that?
I am showing where "figuring out" end times truth , most ALWAYS , reveals one dilemma after another.

I do not have the slightest dilemma with 50% taken/left ( as the bible declares...not me) or where those taken are taken, or what happens to those left behind.
Why?
Because I LEAVE THE COMPONENTS of Jesus analogy ON THE TABLE.
None of the components NEED removal, omission, or modification.

1) Noah in a normal life setting.
2) before the flood.
3) those taken before tge flood, are in a level of unity with those left behind ( Two men in a bed, one will be taken the other one left)
4) 50% taken, 50 % left behind
5) Noah gathered into the ark pretrib
6) Jesus framed his analogy with those COMPONENTS.
7) before the flood " watch and be ready"

"Before the flood, normal life Everyday life Commerce marriage. Planning for the future.
And normal life"
" Before the flood Noah is gathered into the ark"
"Before the flood, one taken, one left behind"
" Before the flood, fifty percent are taken and fifty percent are left behind"
"Before The flood Jesus tells somebody to watch and be ready"

So....why are the components in such misunderstanding?

They Line up perfectly with the pretrib rapture doctrine.
That is why they need either mods or omissions.

So few know what the 50% dynamic is.

 

[rebuilder 454]

yes you are you have completely missed the mark ..i hold to pre trib and have never heard any of this stuff your posting why would God chose to punish his children with the lost who have rejected Him? he has not appointed the born again to wrath but to obtain salvation

Huh?
You didn't get that from me.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

So....why are the components in such misunderstanding?

They Line up perfectly with the pretrib rapture doctrine.

Not missing any points. I've studied it for years. I'm very well aware of what "as in the days of Noah ..." means.
I also know that "as in ALL HISTORY", man has suffered tribulation, pain, suffering and death, so don't think that we will be spared at least part of the Great Tribulation. It is a test as well. And keep on mind, there was more unity in wickedness before the flood. There was one language, one culture, no nations warring against eachother, just totally wicked folks, a norm for them! So natural disasters, plagues, wars, even asteroids and volcanic eruptions will all be interpreted by the blind as normal and natural.
>> Why would there be a great "falling away" OF FAITH during this time? Likely because extreme catastrophies occur and we are still here. When we see hundreds of millions die, which would not be normal _ and we are still here _ then those with weak faith will fall away.
But to me, the worst is catastropies come in the Seven Bowls of Wrath.
There is evidence in scripture that proves we will go through some tribulation.
Turn to the part in Revelation, where demon locusts ascend out of the Abyss and torture mankind for FIVE MONTHS.
NOTICE the they only attack those with the mark of the beast, not those without. Obviously many on earth refuse the mark at this time and have been marked by God to be saved. This is more evidence that proves that (whether this particular event happens before or after the Rapture), not everyone on earth is punished or destroyed.
Sorry, but all scripture does not line up with the Pre-Trib view either. They have their problems too. And I do think one of the main stumbling blocks is how you define the "last trumpet". I see it as #7. But you must deny this and reinterpret it as something separate from one of the _ IN YOUR FACE _ SEVEN TRUMPETS IN REVELATION. No, you could not agree with that because that alone would derail the whole Pre-Trib view. You are actually opposing what scripture says, when the Rapure occurs_ at the last trumpet'. If it was before the Seven trumpets, it wouldn't be the last. The mere fact that there are seven trumpets in the end-time scenario, should bring us to correlate them with 1 Thes. 4:16-17 and 1 Cor. 15:52. Pre-Tribs must disassociate these texts and put the last trump in a totally different category. Pre-tribbers just cannot accept that we go through much of the judgments before we are taken out. That would certainly test your faith. GOD does promise the faithful church that he would not appoint them to wrath, but not some tribulation.
Also to associate the last trumpet with a a shofar blown by a Jewish priest during the Feast of Trumpets is misguided. It is blown by an angel, NOT a man. That would be a time that we may suspect it ( as a recent false prophet predicted Sept. 23-24, 2025 to be the time). No, the Father gives His Son the order to go get His Bride on His time, a time least expected by man. He is not waiting for a blind Jew to blow a shofar on one of their Feasts.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Not missing any points. I've studied it for years. I'm very well aware of what "as in the days of Noah ..." means. I know that "as in ALL HISTORY", man has suffered tribulation, pain, suffering and death, so don't think that we will be spared at least part of the Great Tribulation. It is a test as well. And keep on mind, there was more unity in wickedness before the flood. There was one language, one culture, no nations warring against eachother, just totally wicked folks, a norm for them! So natural disasters, plagues, wars, even asteroids and volcanic eruptions will all be interpreted by the blind as normal and natural.
>> Why would there be a great "falling away" OF FAITH during this time? Likely because extreme catastrophies occur and we are still here. When we see hundreds of millions die, which would not be normal _ and we are still here _ then those with weak faith will fall away.
But to me, the worst is catastropies come in the Seven Bowls of Wrath.
There is evidence in scripture that proves we will go through some tribulation.
Turn to the part in Revelation, where demon locusts ascend out of the Abyss and torture mankind for FIVE MONTHS.
NOTICE the they only attack those with the mark of the beast, not those without. Obviously many on earth refuse the mark at this time and have been marked by God to be saved. This is more evidence that proves that (whether this particular event happens before or after the Rapture), not everyone on earth is punished or destroyed.
Sorry, but all scripture does not line up with the Pre-Trib view either. They have their problems too. And I do think one of the main stumbling blocks is how you define the "last trumpet". I see it as #7. But you must deny this and reinterpret it as something separate from one of the _ IN YOUR FACE _ SEVEN TRUMPETS IN REVELATION. No, you could not agree with that because that alone would derail the whole Pre-Trib view. You are actually opposing what scripture says, when the Rapure occurs_ at the last trumpet'. If it was before the Seven trumpets, it wouldn't be the last. The mere fact that there are seven trumpets in the end-time scenario, should bring us to correlate them with 1 Thes. 4:16-17 and 1 Cor. 15:52. Pre-Tribs must disassociate these texts and put the last trump in a totally different category. Pre-tribbers just cannot accept that we go through much of the judgments before we are taken out. That would certainly test your faith. GOD does promise the faithful church that he would not appoint them to wrath, but not some tribulation.
Also to associate the last trumpet with a a shofar blown by a Jewish priest during the Feast of Trumpets is misguided. It is blown by an angel, NOT a man. That would be a time that we may suspect it ( as a recent false prophet predicted Sept. 23-24, 2025 to be the time). No, the Father gives His Son the order to go get His Bride on His time, a time least expected by man. He is not waiting for a blind Jew to blow a shofar on one of their Feasts.

A better start would be to investigate prior to condemning.
To rely on logic rather than scripture is error.

You changed the setting in Jesus analogy.
You say it is "in all of history".

The setting Jesus gave is opposite your setting.
Night and day opposite of what you say.

Have you ever looked at the hell released at the trumpets.
You have a practically destroyed earth, millions killed refusing the mark, and In your doctrine you see believers running from cave to cave to escape the ac.

Now let's get into the truth.
Jesus said to watch and bevready BEFORE THE FLOOD.
And in his description he says NORMAL LIFE, PLANNING FOR THE FUTURE, MARRIAGE, COMMERCE, EVERYDAY LIFE.

Huh? ???
Jesus gave a pretrib setting????
Watch and wait pretrib?????

 

[rebuilder 454]

Not missing any points. I've studied it for years. I'm very well aware of what "as in the days of Noah ..." means. I know that "as in ALL HISTORY", man has suffered tribulation, pain, suffering and death, so don't think that we will be spared at least part of the Great Tribulation. It is a test as well. And keep on mind, there was more unity in wickedness before the flood. There was one language, one culture, no nations warring against eachother, just totally wicked folks, a norm for them! So natural disasters, plagues, wars, even asteroids and volcanic eruptions will all be interpreted by the blind as normal and natural.
>> Why would there be a great "falling away" OF FAITH during this time? Likely because extreme catastrophies occur and we are still here. When we see hundreds of millions die, which would not be normal _ and we are still here _ then those with weak faith will fall away.
But to me, the worst is catastropies come in the Seven Bowls of Wrath.
There is evidence in scripture that proves we will go through some tribulation.
Turn to the part in Revelation, where demon locusts ascend out of the Abyss and torture mankind for FIVE MONTHS.
NOTICE the they only attack those with the mark of the beast, not those without. Obviously many on earth refuse the mark at this time and have been marked by God to be saved. This is more evidence that proves that (whether this particular event happens before or after the Rapture), not everyone on earth is punished or destroyed.
Sorry, but all scripture does not line up with the Pre-Trib view either. They have their problems too. And I do think one of the main stumbling blocks is how you define the "last trumpet". I see it as #7. But you must deny this and reinterpret it as something separate from one of the _ IN YOUR FACE _ SEVEN TRUMPETS IN REVELATION. No, you could not agree with that because that alone would derail the whole Pre-Trib view. You are actually opposing what scripture says, when the Rapure occurs_ at the last trumpet'. If it was before the Seven trumpets, it wouldn't be the last. The mere fact that there are seven trumpets in the end-time scenario, should bring us to correlate them with 1 Thes. 4:16-17 and 1 Cor. 15:52. Pre-Tribs must disassociate these texts and put the last trump in a totally different category. Pre-tribbers just cannot accept that we go through much of the judgments before we are taken out. That would certainly test your faith. GOD does promise the faithful church that he would not appoint them to wrath, but not some tribulation.
Also to associate the last trumpet with a a shofar blown by a Jewish priest during the Feast of Trumpets is misguided. It is blown by an angel, NOT a man. That would be a time that we may suspect it ( as a recent false prophet predicted Sept. 23-24, 2025 to be the time). No, the Father gives His Son the order to go get His Bride on His time, a time least expected by man. He is not waiting for a blind Jew to blow a shofar on one of their Feasts.

QUOTE
""There is evidence in scripture that proves we will go through some tribulation.
Turn to the part in Revelation, where demon locusts ascend out of the Abyss and torture mankind for FIVE MONTHS.
NOTICE the they only attack those with the mark of the beast, not those without. Obviously many on earth refuse the mark at this time and have been marked by God to be saved. This is more evidence that proves that (whether this particular event happens before or after the Rapture), not everyone on earth is punished or destroyed.
Sorry, but all scripture does not line up with the Pre-Trib view either. They have their problems too. And I do think one of the main stumbling blocks ""

There it is!!!!

You changed the setting.

Changing the bible for your doctrine????
No red flags? ????

Pure conjecture about how the trib is FOR THE GENTILE BRIDE.
WAY WAY OFF.
MADE UP BALONEY.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

A better start would be to investigate prior to condemning.
To rely on logic rather than scripture is error.

You changed the setting in Jesus analogy.
You say it is "in all of history".

The setting Jesus gave is opposite your setting.
Night and day opposite of what you say.

Have you ever looked at the hell released at the trumpets.
You have a practically destroyed earth, millions killed refusing the mark, and In your doctrine you see believers running from cave to cave to escape the ac.

Now let's get into the truth.
Jesus said to watch and bevready BEFORE THE FLOOD.
And in his description he says NORMAL LIFE, PLANNING FOR THE FUTURE, MARRIAGE, COMMERCE, EVERYDAY LIFE.

Huh? ???
Jesus gave a pretrib setting????
Watch and wait pretrib?????

I wasn't changing the analogy Jesus gave, I said I knew what it meant, then I went onto a second point. I should have started a new paragraph. I know there will be an element of surprise like when an earthquake happens - for them as they go about their normal routine - which is a blind way of living in darkness.
The swcond point I was trying to make should be considered and to factored into this normal setting. Many unbelievers can't read the signs like we do. Wars, rumors of wars, pestilence, famines, even asteroids are historical, "part of life", natural occurrences. So even as they come, even more frequently, they go on with their normal lives, as natural, not supernatural judgments. They will be shocked and taken by surpise when Jesus shows up. We won't, like Noah, we prepared for it and anticipated. HIS COMING will be like a thief in the night - for them, not us.
I leave myself some room for error on my Mid-Trib view and actually hope I'm wrong and the Pre-Trib is right. I even have a theory how the 7th Trumpet could be the last with the Church escaping most of the carnage.
The Seven Seals of the Scroll ( handed to Him when He ascended into heaven almost 2000 years ago) was opened. How else would we know what was in it, if He just held onto it all this time without opening it? We are told one by one what each seal represents, but we need to realize, it is like a play written. The play is scheduled to open soon. The action starts when the stage is set and the trumpets are blown. IF they were blown quickly in heaven, BEFORE the events actually materialize, accumulate and overlap, the CHURCH could be taken up before the devastation. ???
Jack Hayford wrote a book called Equake and in it he said the seals are the orders and the actions are in the trumpets and bowls. He draws a parallel between the two earthquakes mentioned in Rev. 6:12 and Rev. 16:18, claiming they are the key to unlocking the door to understanding Revelation. He claims those quakes are the same event.
As you read his book, it becomes clear Revelation is not chronological. We are given one event at a time, but it doesn't mean they do not overlap or that many of them are different vantage points of the same event.
Heaven is not confined to our time domain, nor our linear 3-dimensional view. God in heaven sees a dimension (and likely many dinensions) that we don't. Like when we pray, He knows already what we are praying for and has already answered it, put things in motion before we even utter it.
Another example of these different vantage points ( happening in same time frame) is in Rev. 7 & 14 concerning the 144k - yet lots of events and apparent time lapsing from chapters 8-13.
Needless to say, deciphering Revelation is no simple, straightforward task, nor is it linear in it's timeline as we normally experience time in history in a linear way. The inability to see with extra-dimensional vision makes it confusing - which is why there are so many interpretations.

 

[Earburner]

For the people of Israel to have come through so many trying to kill them off is testament to God looking after them as a people. God put their purpose on hold till the Body of Christ is complete.

Yes, Paul does show that and then further on `And so all Israel will be saved,...` (Rom. 11: 26)

Q. Past, present, future, ...who is: "all Israel will be saved"?
A. It's more extensive than you can imagine.
It even involves the symbolic 144,000, whereby they once were in "Remembrance" before God [KJV Malachi.3:16], "under the altar", waiting for the Promise to come.
KJV Rev. 6:9-11.

But now the Promise CAME, and ever since Jesus resurrection [KJV Mat. 27:52-54] the symbolic 144,000 HAVE received their white robes, the Promise of the Gift of the Holy Spirit, but now they are resting yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled [who are they that are of the "great multitude"].
KJV Rev. 19:6

 

[Marilyn C]

Q. Past, present, future, who is: "all Israel will be saved"?
A. It's more extensive than you can imagine.
It even involves the symbolic 144,000, whereby they once were in "Remembrance" before God [KJV Malachi.3:16], "under the altar", waiting for the Promise to come.
KJV Rev. 6:9-11.

But now the Promise CAME, and ever since Jesus resurrection [KJV Mat. 27:52-54] the symbolic 144,000 HAVE received their white robes, the Promise of the Gift of the Holy Spirit, but now they are resting yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled [who are they that are of the "great multitude"].
KJV Rev. 19:6

I agree that - past, present and future. However, in Rom. 11: 26 Paul, by the Holy Spirit is just referring to when their Deliverer comes then those who turn to Him will be saved. That will be the 1/3rd who went through the `fire.` (Mal. 3: 3 Zech. 14; 13: 8)

 

[Earburner]

I wasn't changing the analogy Jesus gave, I said I knew what it meant, then I went onto a second point. I should have started a new paragraph. I know there will be an element of surprise like when an earthquake happens - for them as they go about their normal routine - which is a blind way of living in darkness.
The swcond point I was trying to make should be considered and to factored into this normal setting. Many unbelievers can't read the signs like we do. Wars, rumors of wars, pestilence, famines, even asteroids are historical, "part of life", natural occurrences. So even as they come, even more frequently, they go on with their normal lives, as natural, not supernatural judgments. They will be shocked and taken by surpise when Jesus shows up. We won't, like Noah, we prepared for it and anticipated. HIS COMING will be like a thief in the night - for them, not us.
I leave myself some room for error on my Mid-Trib view and actually hope I'm wrong and the Pre-Trib is right. I even have a theory how the 7th Trumpet could be the last with the Church escaping most of the carnage.
The Seven Seals of the Scroll ( handed to Him when He ascended into heaven almost 2000 years ago) was opened. How else would we know what was in it, if He just held onto it all this time without opening it? We are told one by one what each seal represents, but we need to realize, it is like a play written. The play is scheduled to open soon. The action starts when the stage is set and the trumpets are blown. IF they were blown quickly in heaven, BEFORE the events actually materialize, accumulate and overlap, the CHURCH could be taken up before the devastation. ???
Jack Hayford wrote a book called Equake and in it he said the seals are the orders and the actions are in the trumpets and bowls. He draws a parallel between the two earthquakes mentioned in Rev. 6:12 and Rev. 16:18, claiming they are the key to unlocking the door to understanding Revelation. He claims those quakes are the same event.
As you read his book, it becomes clear Revelation is not chronological. We are given one event at a time, but it doesn't mean they do not overlap or that many of them are different vantage points of the same event.
Heaven is not confined to our time domain, nor our linear 3-dimensional view. God in heaven sees a dimension (and likely many dinensions) that we don't. Like when we pray, He knows already what we are praying for and has already answered it, put things in motion before we even utter it.
Another example of these different vantage points ( happening in same time frame) is in Rev. 7 & 14 concerning the 144k - yet lots of events and apparent time lapsing from chapters 8-13.
Needless to say, deciphering Revelation is no simple, straightforward task, nor is it linear in it's timeline as we normally experience time in history in a linear way. The inability triptureso see with extra-dimensional vision makes it confusing - which is why there are so many interpretations.

I relate to your way of understanding the scriptures. I also believe that we should not read Revelation chronologically.
Please see my post here #1531.
You might understand and appreciate my view of who all of Israel is, and how the 144,000 were of Old Covenant Israel, and all of the Great Multitude are of the New covenant, consisting of ONLY born again/converted Christians, where there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, but rather they are NEW creatures in Christ Jesus.

 

[Earburner]

I agree that - past, present and future. However, in Rom. 11: 26 Paul, by the Holy Spirit is just referring to when their Deliverer comes then those who turn to Him will be saved. That will be the 1/3rd who went through the `fire.` (Mal. 3: 3 Zech. 14; 13: 8)

I wasn't discounting what you said, I was just referencing and pointing out HOW it is that ALL who ARE IN Christ by His Holy Spirit, ARE ALL Israel who will be saved.

All of OC Israel, who were of faith in the Promise to come, NEVER permanently had/been given the Gift of the Holy Spirit, until AFTER the shedding of Christ's Blood.
Please re-read my post #1531 again.
Thanks.

 

[Marilyn C]

I wasn't discounting what you said, I was just referencing and pointing out HOW it is that ALL who ARE IN Christ by His Holy Spirit, ARE ALL Israel who will be saved.

All of OC Israel, who were of faith in the Promise to come, NEVER permanently had/been given the Gift of the Holy Spirit, until AFTER the shedding of Christ's Blood.
Please re-read my post #1531 again.
Thanks.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[covenantee]

Yes, Paul does show that and then further on `And so all Israel will be saved,...` (Rom. 11: 26)

Hi Marilyn,

Paul has previously identified "all Israel" for us.


Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel" in Christ, comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Marilyn,

Paul has previously identified "all Israel" for us.


Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel" in Christ, comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

In Isaac shall thy seed be called. The children of the promise. God does not go back on His promises.

 

[covenantee]

In Isaac shall thy seed be called. The children of the promise. God does not go back on His promises.

Yes, "all Israel" as defined and described by Paul.

Also defined and described by Paul here:

Galatians 4
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Jew and Gentile believers in Christ in Galatia, and everywhere they were and are found.

AKA His Church.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I relate to your way of understanding the scriptures. I also believe that we should not read Revelation chronologically.
Please see my post here #1531.
You might understand and appreciate my view of who all of Israel is, and how the 144,000 were of Old Covenant Israel, and all of the Great Multitude are of the New covenant, consisting of ONLY born again/converted Christians, where there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, but rather they are NEW creatures in Christ Jesus.

Disagree with the 144k being a chosen from the past. Revelation was written about 95AD. Israel was already scattered.
The 144k are male virgins. That is not symbolic, that is literal and physical.
"These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God."
Rev. 14:4-5
This is future.
John MacArthur says they are ewly chosen Messianic Jewish evangelists who preach the gospel during the Great Tribulation period, especially to the Jews. I side with that interpretation.

 

[covenantee]

Disagree with the 144k being a chosen from the past. Revelation was written about 95AD. Israel was already scattered.
The 144k are male virgins. That is not symbolic, that is literal and physical.
"These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God."
Rev. 14:4-5
This is future.
John MacArthur says they are ewly chosen Messianic Jewish evangelists who preach the gospel during the Great Tribulation period, especially to the Jews. I side with that interpretation.

Bro. MacArthur appears to have overlooked a few things.

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful obedient saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:
Judah means “praise” (Genesis 29:35)
Reuben means “see, a Son” (Genesis 29:32)
Gad means “fortunate” (Genesis 30:11)
Asher means “happy” (Genesis 30:13)
Naphtali means “wrestling” (Genesis 30:8)
Manasseh means “forgetting” (Genesis 41:51)
Simeon means “heard” (Genesis 29:33)
Levi means “attached” (Genesis 29:34)
Issachar means “wages” (Genesis 30:18)
Zebulon means “dwelling” (Genesis 30:20)
Joseph means “He will add” (Genesis 30:24)
Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Genesis 35:17–18)

Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:

Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)
Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.

Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)
The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…Christ and His Church are written all over the 144,000.