WAYS THAT AMILS GET ZECHARIAH 14 WRONG

[Davy]

You continue to make a false accusation, ....

Nah, I tell it like it is. You tried... to create a separate "day of the Lord" event for back in Old Testament history with your post about Joel 3, when that Chapter is pointing to the very END of this world. Too late, you cannot back out of what you said. So turn your anger back upon yourself where it belongs for doing that.

 

[Davy]

It seems you’re letting your mouth run ahead of your thinking. Every reply you make only digs you deeper with these wild accusations. Slow down, because nothing you’re saying is grounded in Scripture or in what I actually stated.

Take a break from this forum, Davy.

That is YOUR "Blah, blah, blah, blah..." statement you FALSELY ADDED to my POST.

You doing that reveals how UNTRUSTWORTHY you actually are.

What I claim you have said, I have proven with your 'own' posts, so if you have memory problems, maybe you ought to go back and re-read what you have said in your own posts, instead throwing out stupidity like "Blah, blah, blah...".

 

[Davidpt]

Do you even know who is the sun? And how it scorched men with great heat and fire? Do you understand this? Doubtfully!

After reviewing your interpretation, it's doubtful that you do. As if none of the plagues mentioned in Revelation 16 can be meaning in the literal sense.

For example.

Revelation 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.


If a literal earthquake is not meant, what then is the point of describing it in this manner---and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great?

Imagine that, going to all of that trouble of describing this earthquake in this manner when a literal earthquake is not even meant to begin with.

Revelation 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.


Compare with...

Exodus 10:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.
22 And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:


I know, I know---no such thing as literal darkness which me be felt. Right? As if what Revelation 16:10-11 is describing is not darkness which may be felt. Nothing to see here then. Right?

 

[TribulationSigns]

After reviewing your interpretation, it's doubtful that you do.

(Chuckle) Really? We shall see. :-)

As if none of the plagues mentioned in Revelation 16 can be meaning in the literal sense.

For example.

For example, if you will also quote previous verse:

Rev 16:17
(17) And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

What is done? And the verse 18-21 give us the answer.

Rev 16:18-21
(18) And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
(19) And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
(20) And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
(21) And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Do you understand what the Lord talks about her? Doubtfully, if you think these must be physical event!

The great city is the unfaithful church who is under judgment of God. It is done that God's spirit is removed from them that they are no longer houses of God. In that verse, the heaven departing like a scroll "signifies" the Kingdom of Heaven is gone from t hem (as with Israel before them at the Cross - Matthew 21:43), and IT IS DONE like a scroll closed to "signify" the Word of God being shut up to them. A famine of hearing the Word of God (Amos 8). This is the fulfillment of what God promised the Church in Revelation chapter 2 would happen if they did not repent of their evil works. God's judgment upon the churches realized.

The great earthquake of verse 18 is not talking about physical seismic disturbances. The earthquake are the spiritual shaking that is going on in the great city in different places, for their foundations are falling down as it no longer represents the kingdom of God. It will be worldwide judgment of the churches that only the Elect can see.

And do you even understand how the city was divided into three parts, humm?
The number three is symbolic of the will and purpose of God. He destroys them by plagues, by the Sword and by famine. In this judgment upon His people by 3 parts is illustrated this is brought upon them by God that His purpose is accomplished in this great judgment. See Ezekiel 5 for this example of judgment upon a people divided into three parts, destruction by plague, famine and sword. These three symbolic of the destruction of the unfaithful.

Ezekiel 5:1213

• "A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee; and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them.
• Thus shall mine anger be accomplished, and I will cause my fury to rest upon them, and I will be comforted: and they shall know that I the LORD have spoken it in my zeal, when I have accomplished my fury in them."

Three parts. The plagues which are likened to spiritual boils or diseases, the famine which is a lack of hearing the word of God, and the sword which is the Word of God that is against them. Thus shall that once great city be divided into three parts and fall hearkening back to (or in remembrance of) Babylon before God (Ezra 5:12), to give to her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Revelation 16:21

• "And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great."

Spiritual delusion or insanity because they would not receive God's truth in love. This is the plagues God has brought upon them because of their hard hearts.

Selah!

(Continue to next post)

 

[TribulationSigns]

Revelation 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Compare with...

Exodus 10:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.
22 And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:

Good job on comparing Scripture with Scripture. Its about time you do that!

What happened in Exdous were SIGNS or tokens representing or prefiguring God's glorious salvation plan, judgments, spiritual bondage, etc. As indeed we can see in some passages of Re velation where these signs are spoken of ILLUSTRATING the judgment of God on his New Testament congregation who hold His people in bondage. For example, the locusts from the pit, the darkness, the sores, the frogs, the waters to blood, the drying up the river, etc. signs that point to something else, which is the true. For example:

Revelation 16:3-4

• "And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
• And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood."

Revelation 16:10-14

• "And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
• And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
• And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
• And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
• For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."

These things are not going to happen literally/physically as so many surmise like you, but what they represent will most assuredly come to pass! For example, the rivers and fountains of water are not going to literally/physically turn to blood, but the sign illustrates a judgment wherein God sends death to the waters and fountains of life. In other words, the gospel water for salvation has become useless.

Therefore, the seat of the beast is found in the kingdom of God which has NOW become full of darkness. Spiritual darkness. She no longer have gospel truth in her anymore.

Rev 18:21-24

• And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
• And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
• And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
• And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

In verse 23, the bridegroom is Christ, and bride is true Elect. He rules over them. They are nations saved by Him, and they bring their glory into this city filled with musicians, harpers, trumpeters, light of candle, where they give praise to God for salvation. It goes without saying that the Church reigning on Earth represents this great city, and has kings reign on the Earth:

Psalms 48:1-2

• "Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised in the city of our God, in the mountain of his holiness.
• Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King."

The city of our God is spiritual Jerusalem, whom the Church represents on earth. This city reigns over the kings of the earth because it is the city of the Great King. The merchants of the earth were made rich (Revelation 3:18) through the abundance of her delicacies (strength) because she was the covenanted congregation wherein was found salvation. THIS is the only "true" riches (Revelation 3:18) that count for anything was in this Great city! Period.

BUT... the Great City that Revelation says is then FALLEN, and judged of God, and that His people (Elect who can "see") were to come out of her.

So yes, these kings of the earth lived deliciously or in strength with her, and Revelations 18 says after she is fallen they (these kings of the earth) stand far off from her and bewail and lament that a once great and rich city is come to nothing! That is your darkness coming to this kingdom, get it?! Because it has become a seat of the beast. The Elect cry for her when they "see" the smoke of her burning. For example, the Church has fallen because of the spiritual fornication of her kings, and the voice of bridegroom (the word of Christ) and the Bride (Elect) will never be heard in this city anymore!

Revelation 18:23

• "And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived."

The bridegroom is Christ. And because of this city's abominations, she is left desolate. Please Note, it is just as Christ said of Jerusalem representing the Old Testament congregation when it fell at the Cross. They (the people of that congregation of God - Jews) never thought that it could happen to them. And yet it did!! And TODAY, those of the Church think the same thing, scoffing at such a conclusion that the Church could fall. Really, you think??

...Thus saith the Preacher, There is nothing new under the sun!

So yes, it makes perfect sense as the fallen Church. And no sense at all as physical city of Rome or the world system considering all that God has to say about everything, in context and time and judgment.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Quote - I have been saying REPEATEDLY that the day of the Lord is the day of the Lord Jesus's return ......

Marilyn, where do you see anything there where I said that the word "day" can't refer to a period of time? I didn't. I was simply showing what I believe the day of the Lord represents and not saying anything about what the word "day" can or can't mean.

 

[Marilyn C]

Marilyn, where do you see anything there where I said that the word "day" can't refer to a period of time? I didn't. I was simply showing what I believe the day of the Lord represents and not saying anything about what the word "day" can or can't mean.

By saying this it gives the impression that you think there is only the specific day of the Lord.

Quote - I have been saying REPEATEDLY that the day of the Lord is the day of the Lord Jesus's return ......

So do you believe from God`s word that the Day of the Lord can also mean a `period of time?`

 

[rwb]

By saying this it gives the impression that you think there is only the specific day of the Lord.

Quote - I have been saying REPEATEDLY that the day of the Lord is the day of the Lord Jesus's return ......

So do you believe from God`s word that the Day of the Lord can also mean a `period of time?`

The day of the Lord the prophets foretell does pertain to a period of time. But the day of the Lord written in the New Testament pertains not to the day of the Lord giving man time to call upon the name of the Lord to be saved. The day of the Lord the NT disciples speak of is the last day of this time the OT prophets foretell would come.

It seems that premillennialists try to make the last day of the Lord another age of time, one thousand years, because when they read the prophecies of Old, they think these things must be physically fulfilled, as things of Old have been. It seems that premillennialists do not yet understand the prophets of Old foretell what would come to pass through the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven, that is not of this world because it is within you. The only way to make sense of the day of the Lord written in both the Old and the New Testaments is through spiritual discerning what is written concerns spiritual fulfillment for all that is written of this spiritual, not physical place called the Kingdom of God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

By saying this it gives the impression that you think there is only the specific day of the Lord.

Yes, that is what I believe. How is that the same as claiming that there is no other possible way of understanding what the word "day" can mean? I didn't say that it only has one definition. I'm simply showing how it should be understood based on what Paul said about it. It does not seem that your version of the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night bringing sudden destruction upon those who are in spiritual darkness from which they shall not escape, as Paul taught.

Quote - I have been saying REPEATEDLY that the day of the Lord is the day of the Lord Jesus's return ......

So do you believe from God`s word that the Day of the Lord can also mean a `period of time?`

I don't believe it can based on what I read in passages like 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12, but I do understand that the Greek word translated as "day" in the phrase "the day of the Lord" can refer to a period of time. You are acting as if I claimed that the word can't possibly have more than one definition, but I'm not claiming that. I'm simply showing how I understand 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 where there is no indication of anything about a period of time and instead the context is in relation to a day that will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night bringing "sudden destruction". That doesn't come across as a period of time to me.

 

[Marilyn C]

The day of the Lord the prophets foretell does pertain to a period of time. But the day of the Lord written in the New Testament pertains not to the day of the Lord giving man time to call upon the name of the Lord to be saved. The day of the Lord the NT disciples speak of is the last day of this time the OT prophets foretell would come.

It seems that premillennialists try to make the last day of the Lord another age of time, one thousand years, because when they read the prophecies of Old, they think these things must be physically fulfilled, as things of Old have been. It seems that premillennialists do not yet understand the prophets of Old foretell what would come to pass through the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven, that is not of this world because it is within you. The only way to make sense of the day of the Lord written in both the Old and the New Testaments is through spiritual discerning what is written concerns spiritual fulfillment for all that is written of this spiritual, not physical place called the Kingdom of God.

So if the `Day of the Lord` written about in the OT is supposed to be spiritual what of Joel 2 and the massive army, the northern army that God is going to deal with?

And the Day of the Lord is written in the NT as a period of time - 2 Peter 3: 10.

 

[rwb]

So if the `Day of the Lord` written about in the OT is supposed to be spiritual what of Joel 2 and the massive army, the northern army that God is going to deal with?

And the Day of the Lord is written in the NT as a period of time - 2 Peter 3: 10.

Would you not agree the day of the Lord of both old and new testaments pertains to Christ coming, and coming again? When Christ came to earth with the Kingdom of God, do you believe the Kingdom of God He ushered in was a physical Kingdom? The day of the Lord written in the NT ALWAYS pertains to the last day of this time we have been living in since the first advent of Christ. Although the day of the Lord the prophets of Old foretell exists for a long time, (this whole age, these last days) the day of the Lord written in the NT shall not come with more time but comes when the last trumpet sounds this time (day of the Lord; these last days) shall be no longer.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And the Day of the Lord is written in the NT as a period of time - 2 Peter 3: 10.

Where are you seeing a period of time mentioned anywhere in 2 Peter 3:10? Peter, like Paul in 1 Thess 5:2-3, spoke of mass destruction occurring upon the coming of the day of the Lord as a thief in the night. How does that suggest anything about a period of time?

 

[Marilyn C]

Where are you seeing a period of time mentioned anywhere in 2 Peter 3:10? Peter, like Paul in 1 Thess 5:2-3, spoke of mass destruction occurring upon the coming of the day of the Lord as a thief in the night. How does that suggest anything about a period of time?

`in which the heavens will pass away...` (2 Peter 3: 10)

There is much to happen in the Day of the Lord period of time. It includes the `thief in the night` and continues till the heavens will pass away.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

`in which the heavens will pass away...` (2 Peter 3: 10)

There is much to happen in the Day of the Lord period of time. it starts with the `thief in the night` and continues till the heavens will pass away.

That is not at all what that verse says. Peter indicated that the heavens will pass away and the earth will be burned up upon the arrival of the day of the Lord. That lines up with Paul saying in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 that "sudden destruction" will occur upon the arrival of the day of the Lord from which unbelievers "shall not escape". To place that destruction a long period of time like a thousand years (plus Satan's little season) after Christ returns is a case of taking 2 Peter 3:10-12 completely out of context.

 

[Marilyn C]

That is not at all what that verse says. Peter indicated that the heavens will pass away and the earth will be burned up upon the arrival of the day of the Lord. That lines up with Paul saying in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 that "sudden destruction" will occur upon the arrival of the day of the Lord from which unbelievers "shall not escape". To place that destruction a long period of time like a thousand years (plus Satan's little season) after Christ returns is a case of taking 2 Peter 3:10-12 completely out of context.

So back we go again to ALL scriptures referring to the Day of the LORD period of time. Joel 2 clearly shows that there is a period of time for the Day of the LORD. Can you address that please?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So back we go again to ALL scriptures referring to the Day of the LORD period of time. Joel 2 clearly shows that there is a period of time for the Day of the LORD. Can you address that please?

I've told you that I don't see that. I don't recall you showing where it says that. Can you show me EXACTLY where it indicates that the day of the Lord is a period of time? Be as specific as possible. I'm not seeing it. I think you may be confusing what Joel calls "the last days" with "the day of the Lord", but I'm not sure. You need to be more clear. The last days lead up to the day of the Lord.

You also aren't addressing the fact that you are completely contradicting what Paul and Peter said about the day of the Lord. You are inserting a period of time there when they gave no indication whatsoever about the day of the Lord being a period of time.

 

[Marilyn C]

I've told you that I don't see that. I don't recall you showing where it says that. Can you show me EXACTLY where it indicates that the day of the Lord is a period of time? Be as specific as possible. I'm not seeing it. I think you may be confusing what Joel calls "the last days" with "the day of the Lord", but I'm not sure. You need to be more clear. The last days lead up to the day of the Lord.

You also aren't addressing the fact that you are completely contradicting what Paul and Peter said about the day of the Lord. You are inserting a period of time there when they gave no indication whatsoever about the day of the Lord being a period of time.

Joel 2 - northern army attacking Israel. God deals with them driving them towards the eastern and western sea.

Joel 3 - God brings ALL the nations down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat to be judged.

The shows that the Day of the LORD is also a period of time as well as a specific day.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

After reviewing your interpretation, it's doubtful that you do. As if none of the plagues mentioned in Revelation 16 can be meaning in the literal sense.

For example.

Revelation 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.


If a literal earthquake is not meant, what then is the point of describing it in this manner---and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great?

Why do you insist that text within the most highly symbolic book in all of scripture has to be literal? Not saying that it can't be, but why is your default that it should be literal?

Do you think this is literal...

Revelation 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Is this talking about literal blood being mixed with literal hail and literal fire being cast upon the earth? Why would literal blood be cast upon the earth? Do you think it's talking about literal trees and grass being burnt up?

Is this talking about a literal tree...

Daniel 4:20 The tree that thou sawest, which grew, and was strong, whose height reached unto the heaven, and the sight thereof to all the earth; 21 Whose leaves were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all; under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and upon whose branches the fowls of the heaven had their habitation: 22 It is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth.

Imagine that, going to all of that trouble of describing this earthquake in this manner when a literal earthquake is not even meant to begin with.

Imagine that, Daniel going through all that trouble describing a tree and it ended up being a symbolic description of King Nebuchadnezzar. Just imagine that.

 

[Marilyn C]

Would you not agree the day of the Lord of both old and new testaments pertains to Christ coming, and coming again? When Christ came to earth with the Kingdom of God, do you believe the Kingdom of God He ushered in was a physical Kingdom? The day of the Lord written in the NT ALWAYS pertains to the last day of this time we have been living in since the first advent of Christ. Although the day of the Lord the prophets of Old foretell exists for a long time, (this whole age, these last days) the day of the Lord written in the NT shall not come with more time but comes when the last trumpet sounds this time (day of the Lord; these last days) shall be no longer.

You need to address scripturally that Joel 2 & 3 are not the Day of the Lord period of time. Just having your opinion is not scriptural.

 

[rwb]

You need to address scripturally that Joel 2 & 3 are not the Day of the Lord period of time. Just having your opinion is not scriptural.

Joel simply prophesies about the Day of the Lord that would come. Believing all that he foretells shall come to pass during the Day of the Lord. There is much in his prophecy that speaks of what shall come to pass in that Day/Age when the promised Lord would come. The prophesy speaks not only of what will come to pass in the final Day of the Lord the New Testament writes of, "A Day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness", Joel's prophecy also says in the Day of the Lord "ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel", and "I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh" (not Jew only but also Gentiles), and there would be wonders in the heavens and the earth before the "great and terrible Day of the Lord come"! Also in the Day of the Lord "it shall come to pass, whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion (above) and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call."

Joel 2:27-32 (KJV) And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

When comparing the prophesy of Joel the fulfillment of this prophesy spoken by Peter in Acts 2 should prove all the prophets of Old warning of the coming Day of the LORD pertains to the entire New Covenant time that began when Christ, the promised Messiah came, and all they prophesy began to come to pass on the day of Pentecost, and has continued to come to pass throughout the ages, and the prophesy will be complete when the final Day of the Lord when Christ would come again finally comes.